Reign of Chaos (A Chaos Revamp project)

maverike_prime · April 28, 2014

Man, I really dig this effort. Good job, Mav.

In a general sense, I think the problems with the Chaos Codex stem from big issues with the core rules of 6th Edtion - the huge preference for shooting over close combat, the overall vulnerability of transport vehicles (and their uselessness as assault platforms), etc. 6th Ed could use a re-write like this.

On the rules you've posted:

Berzerkers - Just don't like the whole pistol-blade thing; it's not represented on the models, and it feels strange to throw Shred on some dinky handguns when there's a classic Berzerker weapon that could carry the load - it seems cleaner, to me, to just give Shred to the Chain-Axe, and leave the extra pistol shots off. I'd say they don't really need them, and their charge distance/power issue is one that should be solved in the assault phase. Chain-Glaives, given the absolutely devastating effect they have on a charge, seem way undercosted at two points apiece, especially since you can pop them on every single squad member. Losing a Bolt Pistol shot is, in comparison, hardly a notable downside.

My suggestion is to go for a more elegant solution - Shred on Chain-Axes, the addition of a Berzerker Charge (3d6"?) to the Berzerkers' profile, and maybe adding a rule that allows them to charge out of Rhinos with a little downside (Disorganized Charge?). That fits the models people already have, and doesn't add so much to the unit entry's overall footprint. The Chainglaives might not be a bad addition (seems 'Zerkerish), but I think they need to be restricted in the same way special weapons are (one per five squad members or so), and obviously need a points adjustment. Maybe 15 points apiece? Chain weaponry also generally doesn't hit AP3 territory elsewhere, so maybe a more Chain-Axe-esque AP4 (and Shred!) and 5pts a model would be a better deal in that case.

Thousand Sons - Honestly, I liked your initial efforts a lot more than this re-vamped one. Again on the model front, there's never been a heavy weapon-toting Rubricae, and the addition of Relentless made the Sorcerer extremely useful, and upped the unit's overall usability by quite a bit (Overwatch, yay!). The extra Warp Charge rule's got promise, but I think it restricts their overall usefulness to a Sorcerer Battery, and not a hugely effective one at that.

Don't have a lot of suggestions for this version - I thought your first stab at them was damn near perfect. Would love to see it back.

The old version is still up. You can grab the card and try it out. All I ask is that you post your experiences with the unit for consideration.

as for the Ravager blades vs the Chain axe suggestion, using an Axe is about brute force. Hence the +1 strength it grants. My whole idea behind granting shred with the Ravager blades is that they are smaller dagger sized blades that can be used to get into small spots where the armor if weakest making it more likely to land a kill shot.

As for the model point, I share the concern. But I'm also tired of letting GW dictate what units work best based on what kit sells the best. Besides, this is considered a fan-project, so chances are good that anything we come up with can simply be converted.

maverike_prime · April 29, 2014

Okay I don't know what the heck I was smoking/snorting/shooting/drinking over the last two days but whatever it was it was something good. No, the Chain Glave should not have been AP3. it was always intended to be AP4. So I fixed that on the new card. Also revamped the Thousand Sons a bit based on some play testing and feed back from over on Dakka Dakka. Added a new option to the Chaos Rhino and added a Chaos Drop pod.

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-28-14_01%28thousand_sons%29-thumb.png

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-28-14_01%28khorne_berzerkers%29-thumb.png

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-28-14_01%28chaos_rhino%29-thumb.png

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-29-14_01%28drop_pod%29-thumb.png

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-27-14-tzeentch-01-thumb.png

Chiv · April 29, 2014

On zerkers ( I don't have any T-Sons so no advice from me )

I think the Ravager Blade should be a Special rule vice an attachement to the pistols, I saw that you could replace pistol with ccw I don't recall this granting any benifits whatsoever, I feel that a zerker with 2 chain swords should be shredding up units along with the dual pistol guy.

EDIT: Oh forgot, I don't really think dual pistols is all that fluffy for a zerker anyway they just have to have a chain weapon all the better for rendering blood for the blood god!

On the glaive I like the Idea however the chain-axe is the premier zerker weapon I feel and its rather horrid. The glaive speaks to me as more of a champion weapon. I propose the following:

Chain Axe

S=User+1 Ap=4

Chain Glaive as you have @ a little less points than power wep upgrade

Give the Skull Champion the unweildy rule to ignore it on charging turn, this allows power axe to be viable for champion and allow him to take on some people in challenges instead of martyring himself.

(Aside: I don't have a gaming group atm so I can't really check viability but it all sounds plausible to me )

Lagrath · April 29, 2014

These look really neat and professionally done. Cool to try some day maybe.

That being said, let's see what 7th Edition brings in a few weeks. Also, there is still the longstanding rumor that second half of this year we will see more Chaos supplements.

Personally, I am hoping the rumor is true that Shrouded now is -2 to BS to shoot at it. Nurgle would be sexy again suddenly.

maverike_prime · April 29, 2014

These look really neat and professionally done. Cool to try some day maybe.

That being said, let's see what 7th Edition brings in a few weeks. Also, there is still the longstanding rumor that second half of this year we will see more Chaos supplements.

Personally, I am hoping the rumor is true that Shrouded now is -2 to BS to shoot at it. Nurgle would be sexy again suddenly.

yeah, I'm gonna go on record as saying this will NOT be a new edition. It'll be more of a "revised' edition. 6th edition as been out less then 2 years now. GW would be beyond insane to release a 'new edition' this soon.

Iron_Within · April 29, 2014

I really like the rules you are making. Keep it up.

C&C's below:

Berzerkers

I like the idea of "shred" on Berzerkers, but the concept of bladed pistols doesn't gel, reasons mentioned before; alternatives could be adding a special rule of "pit fighters" or something to that effect, essentially these guys are expert gladiators with more experience then even the average Berzerkers and grants Shred. No need to fiddly modeling but gives an opportunity for those who want to to model the FW World Eater Rampager models:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/World_Eaters/WORLD_EATERS_LEGION_RAMPAGER_SQUAD.html

An alternate would be "Gladiator weapons", however this would risk stepping on the toes of your blazing charge rule and chain axes.

Tzeentch powers:

The Horror summoning lacks definition. I know it's very much in an alpha phase, but following questions jump out at me:

1) How do the Horrors deploy? Do they deploy at all or are they a buff to a unit?

2) As it is Witchfire power how do the Horrors fire their psychic abilities?

3) If they deploy via Deepstrike/Reserve rules they won't be able to charge so your points about combat are redundant.

Rubrics

I like em... Though do rubrics themselves get any sort of invulnerable save? If they do not the AP3 might be a bit too powerful for AP3 heavy armies

maverike_prime · April 29, 2014

On zerkers ( I don't have any T-Sons so no advice from me )

I think the Ravager Blade should be a Special rule vice an attachement to the pistols, I saw that you could replace pistol with ccw I don't recall this granting any benifits whatsoever, I feel that a zerker with 2 chain swords should be shredding up units along with the dual pistol guy.

EDIT: Oh forgot, I don't really think dual pistols is all that fluffy for a zerker anyway they just have to have a chain weapon all the better for rendering blood for the blood god!

On the glaive I like the Idea however the chain-axe is the premier zerker weapon I feel and its rather horrid. The glaive speaks to me as more of a champion weapon. I propose the following:

Chain Axe

S=User+1 Ap=4

Chain Glaive as you have @ a little less points than power wep upgrade

Give the Skull Champion the unweildy rule to ignore it on charging turn, this allows power axe to be viable for champion and allow him to take on some people in challenges instead of martyring himself.

(Aside: I don't have a gaming group atm so I can't really check viability but it all sounds plausible to me )

Yeah I know the feeling with the no-group situation. Closest place for me is an hour away and the War Machine/Hordes and Magic crowds are so over powering there are times that we just don't have space to play or no one else shows up.

As for the bolt pistols: They would be able to make effectively 4 shooting attacks on a turn they charge (2 in the shooting phase + 2 when they charge based on the blazing charge rule).

As for the ravager blades, the reason I gave them the shread rule and not the standard close combat weapon is a matter of size. Ravager blades are smaller and able to be used in ways that the big chain sword can't be. You can't stab with a chainsword for instance, where has you can with the ravager blades. There's also the point that you can stab, shoot and tear with ravager blades all in one motion.

And the Chains axe is already that.

maverike_prime · April 29, 2014

Iron_Within, on 29 Apr 2014 - 13:14, said:

I really like the rules you are making. Keep it up.

C&C's below:

Berzerkers

I like the idea of "shred" on Berzerkers, but the concept of bladed pistols doesn't gel, reasons mentioned before; alternatives could be adding a special rule of "pit fighters" or something to that effect, essentially these guys are expert gladiators with more experience then even the average Berzerkers and grants Shred. No need to fiddly modeling but gives an opportunity for those who want to to model the FW World Eater Rampager models:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/World_Eaters/WORLD_EATERS_LEGION_RAMPAGER_SQUAD.html

An alternate would be "Gladiator weapons", however this would risk stepping on the toes of your blazing charge rule and chain axes.

Oh look! Chain Glaves! I just need to change the name.

incinerator950 · April 29, 2014

I don't know why I was avoiding this topic, this is great. I know I'm severely jumping the gun, but I have ideas for us to go over later when you get to Heavy Support.

Unsucking the Defiler, potential ideas like:

Drop Snapshot for the battle cannon
Lower points cost
Able to take a third Havoc launcher by replacing the Reaper Autocannon (for :cusss and giggles)
Make front armor AV13
Able to replace the battlecannon with an Ecto-plasm Cannon, Baleflamer, or krak/frag missile launcher
Able to take two Dread PFs
Ability to take two Twin Linked Las Cannons

I haven't even touched some of the more juicy ideas, like move through cover for both the Defiler and Forgefiend, or for vehicles in general, like adding more Hades Autocannons to tanks as upgrades (Predator) or giving them marks associated bonuses (at least for the Demon/possessed ones). I also have a really, really awkward idea for making a Skyfire Defiler variant similar to the IG Hydra flak tank, but I need to go over that vehicle's rules closer.

Iron_Within · April 29, 2014

Here's a couple of idea's I was having regarding Terminators and Warp Talons. These aren't overarching changes but rather little rules that could be useful (I know this isn't design by committee so I have no real problem with these being included or not).

Power Combat Blades: Most Chaos Space Marines attach additional blades to their weapons including combat Blades. However, Power Combat attachments are only included on Combi Weaponry which are large enough to accommodate the additional power generators specifically to be used in combat. Terminators use these weapons along with regular weaponry to deadly effect:

Rules: Power Combat Blades count as an additional Close Combat Weapon in Close Combat for models in Terminator armour.

notes: This special rule comes all the way back from 2nd edition and is the reason why every combi weapons on Terminators has power blades on them.

Warp Assault The Lost and the dammed have long ago mastered the warp as best of possible by mortals. Many a for has been caught completely off guard by sudden assaults tearing directly from the warp.

Rules: Models with this special rule may assault after deploying via Deep Strike in the same turn it arrives. However, the unit does it counts as assault through "Dangerous Terrain" and performing a "disorganized charge".

For Terminators and Warp Talons.

daboarder · April 29, 2014

your all over the park with those glaives.

You've both lowered the AP to 4 instead of 3 AND made them 10 pts?

29 pts a piece? no thanks

and 19 pts for a zerker is still way to much

maverike_prime · April 29, 2014

your all over the park with those glaives.

You've both lowered the AP to 4 instead of 3 AND made them 10 pts?

29 pts a piece? no thanks

and 19 pts for a zerker is still way to much

Yeah I was all over the place with them. Then I pulled out my copy of Horus Heresy Book 1 and looked at the excoriator Chain Axe. As for the 19 points... yeah. Going to need to provide a better explination then just "it's way too much" seeing as a normal Chaos Space Marine right now is 20 points for comparable states and they don't get access to the Excoriator, Ravager Blades, or Blazing Charge. And they aren't WS5.

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/4-26-14_01%28khorne_berzerkers%29-thumb.png

Caleth · May 1, 2014

A quick question. Where arevyou getting 20pts from a bare csm swaps the bolter for a ccw for free and takes a MoK for 2pts. No ws5, Furious Charge or fearless. But it's only 15pts for the csm not 19 like the zerker. if you're tacking on banner costs and the like it's an apples to oranges comparison.

More generally zerkers are cover costed because csm are over costed, at least in comparison to tactical SM. Compare any of the traits they get along with combat squads and ATSKNF for 1pt more than a CSM.

maverike_prime · May 1, 2014

A quick question. Where arevyou getting 20pts from a bare csm swaps the bolter for a ccw for free and takes a MoK for 2pts. No ws5, Furious Charge or fearless. But it's only 15pts for the csm not 19 like the zerker. if you're tacking on banner costs and the like it's an apples to oranges comparison.

More generally zerkers are cover costed because csm are over costed, at least in comparison to tactical SM. Compare any of the traits they get along with combat squads and ATSKNF for 1pt more than a CSM.

... I have no clue what you just said. I understood "a quick question". after that.... it's like you just threw a bunch of letters and words on the board to make it look like you typed something.

maverike_prime · May 1, 2014

Been getting lots of feed back over on Dakka Dakka and been putting together a whole slew of new cards based on the feed back and ideas. Check 'em out, post your thoughts. If you want to try them out in-game please do. All I ask is that you post some reports about how they work out in game. What you were using, what your opponent was using, what the conditions were when you did what you did with them... you know data.

So yeah, here they are. Some of the preview images are outdated so be sure to click on them to get the current (as of 5/1/14) card.

maverike_prime · May 1, 2014

Maverike,

I'm liking this thread I haven't played with CSM at all so I don't feel I can add anything yet. However might a make a suggestion on Formatting?

The DA started a Use this unit in as many games as you can for a month and post your results and ideas/tactics. This worked well for not so used units such as Scouts etc.

I saw you said start with 1KSons so I'd say do one post for each unit and give it like a week of people "fixing" said CSM unit.

Just a thought.

DoC

Okay... I donno how I the heck I missed this post. That's a good idea and I think I'll start pushing that on DakkaDakka and here but on a monthly basis. Thanks Sgt.

Shuggnuggath · May 1, 2014

What is the range of the horror summoning spell? Seems more like a weird blessing than a witch fire.

daboarder · May 1, 2014

seeing as you have traits (ostensibly for the "legions") are you also going to re-work the marks an icons so that cult warbands can be appropriately represented?

edit: What is dedication to nurgle?

is this your version of the mark?

Chiv · May 1, 2014

The dedications seem to be marks for the bikers or special rules for them.

Black13 · May 1, 2014

A quick question. Where arevyou getting 20pts from a bare csm swaps the bolter for a ccw for free and takes a MoK for 2pts. No ws5, Furious Charge or fearless. But it's only 15pts for the csm not 19 like the zerker. if you're tacking on banner costs and the like it's an apples to oranges comparison.

More generally zerkers are cover costed because csm are over costed, at least in comparison to tactical SM. Compare any of the traits they get along with combat squads and ATSKNF for 1pt more than a CSM.

... I have no clue what you just said. I understood "a quick question". after that.... it's like you just threw a bunch of letters and words on the board to make it look like you typed something.

Yeah... and rather than ask the op for clarification, you make yourself look like a total tool by insulting him. I was somewhat interested in this thread until I've read the way you respond to people who are trying to help ( which is exactly what you've asked the community for by the way).

daveNYC · May 1, 2014

I really think that the 1k Sons would benefit from changing the Aspiring Sorcerer into a BAMF Sorcerer.

Right now, the IG (or AM if you're digging the new name) can grab a primaris psyker that can access more powers and can be upgraded to ML2. Which, ignoring the LD issue, makes them technically better at magic than the umpteen hundred year old transhumans who have dedicated themselves to the god of magic.

Make the lore of Tzeentch optional and allow the purchase of MLs (but nobody can be stronger than the Sorcerer boss).

maverike_prime · May 1, 2014

I really think that the 1k Sons would benefit from changing the Aspiring Sorcerer into a BAMF Sorcerer.

Right now, the IG (or AM if you're digging the new name) can grab a primaris psyker that can access more powers and can be upgraded to ML2. Which, ignoring the LD issue, makes them technically better at magic than the umpteen hundred year old transhumans who have dedicated themselves to the god of magic.

Make the lore of Tzeentch optional and allow the purchase of MLs (but nobody can be stronger than the Sorcerer boss).

from changing the aspiring sorcerer into a what? and what are you talking about lore of tzeentch?

maverike_prime · May 1, 2014

A quick question. Where arevyou getting 20pts from a bare csm swaps the bolter for a ccw for free and takes a MoK for 2pts. No ws5, Furious Charge or fearless. But it's only 15pts for the csm not 19 like the zerker. if you're tacking on banner costs and the like it's an apples to oranges comparison.

More generally zerkers are cover costed because csm are over costed, at least in comparison to tactical SM. Compare any of the traits they get along with combat squads and ATSKNF for 1pt more than a CSM.

... I have no clue what you just said. I understood "a quick question". after that.... it's like you just threw a bunch of letters and words on the board to make it look like you typed something.

Yeah... and rather than ask the op for clarification, you make yourself look like a total tool by insulting him. I was somewhat interested in this thread until I've read the way you respond to people who are trying to help ( which is exactly what you've asked the community for by the way).

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree that the message was helping. I've worked in customer service for 15 years and I get calls basically every day that start with "omfgwhatthehellisthiscrapthisdoesntworkthewayiwantittoyoumustfixthisrightnowbecauseidontwantto!!!!!!!" and my first response is always "I'm sorry, but I can't understand what you just said. I understand that you are having a problem with something."

I have it in my signature. If you are not going to take the extra 2 seconds to spell out "Chaos Marine" then no, I do not want the help. I'm sorry, I state that in every message I post via my signature. I consider it just flat common courtesy to assume that the individual who is reading your message is not a mind-reader and may not know every single short hand reference you could possible throw on the table. If you look back through my posts you will see the limit of my short hand is "zerks" for berzerkers when I have declared I am talking about Berzerkers, and WS when I've posted the unit card that explicitly references the stat line for the WS.

maverike_prime · May 1, 2014

daboarder, on 01 May 2014 - 03:26, said:

seeing as you have traits (ostensibly for the "legions") are you also going to re-work the marks an icons so that cult warbands can be appropriately represented?

edit: What is dedication to nurgle?

is this your version of the mark?

yes and no to the question about dedication being a version of marks. The closest analogy in the current codex is the marks yes, but I so unbelievably disagree with the idea of "marking" vehicles it makes my eyes spin. You don't slap a bit of red paint, white paint and blue paint on your truck and say "Ah now it represents america" I mean you can, but people look at you really weird if you do. There was an article I read a couple years ago, and I wish I could find the images from it right now, about a woman who was protesting the Iraq war. She spent a couple thousand dollars to have her PT Cruiser repainted with a mural of her son and his four best friends who had been killed in the war. When asked why, she said she had dedicated her effort to the memory of her son and his best friends and that the car was a symbol of that.

That's what goes through mind when I think of a vehicle being aligned to a given Chaos god. It's not marked, it's dedicated.

As for your question about the marks and icons, I'm not really sure what you are asking. Can you elaborate?

Shuggnuggath, on 01 May 2014 - 03:05, said:

What is the range of the horror summoning spell? Seems more like a weird blessing than a witch fire.

hmm I could have sworn I had said it was 6" on that card. Well, thats why I keep the original file in an editable fashion.

fixed it.

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/5-01-14-tzeentch-01-thumb.png

daboarder · May 1, 2014

Ok that works.

My question was, Under the changesyou are making is it possible for me to atleast have the option of having units with the same special rules as plague marines.

ie: terminators, Lords, Havocs, Bikes, Chosen...etc with -1I, +1T, FNP so that they match my PMs

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