Reign of Chaos (A Chaos Revamp project)

[zyl-]

 

A quick question. Where arevyou getting 20pts from a bare csm swaps the bolter for a ccw for free and takes a MoK for 2pts. No ws5, Furious Charge or fearless. But it's only 15pts for the csm not 19 like the zerker. if you're tacking on banner costs and the like it's an apples to oranges comparison.

More generally zerkers are cover costed because csm are over costed, at least in comparison to tactical SM. Compare any of the traits they get along with combat squads and ATSKNF for 1pt more than a CSM.

 

... I have no clue what you just said. I understood "a quick question". after that.... it's like you just threw a bunch of letters and words on the board to make it look like you typed something.

This user's problem is that he believes the Chaos Space Marines are over priced. Therefore, when you compare the berzerkers to the chaos space marine for a sense of reasonable point values, you are making the assumption that the chaos space marines are a good base line from which to draw your comparison and our user does not agree. The suggestion he makes is for you to use the space marine tactical squad from the Index Astartes as a more appropo unit from which to derive prices. Of course this is a bad standard to use as it constantly assumes a complete vaccuum around every individual unit when making a comparison.

 

I more avidly support your current approach where by you price the unit based on preformance in conjuncture with the rest of the codex units from the codex to which the unit belongs. This is because I believe that balancing the codex internally should take priority over balancing the codex externally (as we all know that codex creep exists and destroys balance with every new release).

 

As for my concerns, I think the Tzeentchian Gateway power is just a bit over the top for utility. Comparing to the 4th edition "lash of submission", which dealt no damage, and the current damage dealing powers, (such as smite) this seems to be better than the best of both. My best guess as to what might even things out would be to drastically lower the strength of the hits to 3 or 4 or eliminate them completely. My reasoning is as follows: The sorceror's unit will likely have 10 marines to get the second warp charge granted via Tzeentch's Favor, which means on average the power will be used to move a unit 12." As the direction is random for enemy units, there is no telling what might happen UNLESS the controlling player has the ability to group the enemy tighter for template spam, which would be tragic for the opposition. For friendly units, the ability to effectively add 12" to a charge means a hands down turn 1 charge (6+12+2d6" which averages to 25"). But what if 2 units cast the power on 1 friendly unit in a turn? That's a hellacious 37" turn 1 charge. What if the power is cast on flesh hounds of khorne? 12" scout move + 12" calvary move + 12" gateway move + 2d6 charge is 43" first turn. With all of that in mind, a potentially huge wound pool to add in the mix is extremely heavy handed. (hopefully all well explained)

[incinerator950]

Ok that works.

 

My question was, Under the changesyou are making is it possible for me to atleast have the option of having units with the same special rules as plague marines.

 

ie: terminators, Lords, Havocs, Bikes, Chosen...etc with -1I, +1T, FNP so that they match my PMs

 

You mean like Rubric Terminators or Noise Dreadnoughts? 

[MaliGn]

Can I make a suggestion that Possessed get to choose from a list of six mutations, two movement, two offensive and two defensive. Similar to obliterators the same mutation could not be taken two turns in a row.

 

Options could include beast movement, some kind of frag grenade effect, shred or rending, shrouded etc.

 

Could also add the option for the entire unit to take a gift of mutation for 5pts a model?

 

Just an idea.

 

Also on dedications I get where you're coming from but bikes have riders too, who could also be marled. Also the extra armour toughness boost should also remove the ability to turbo boost so that it's not such an auto include.

[maverike_prime]

 

 

A quick question. Where arevyou getting 20pts from a bare csm swaps the bolter for a ccw for free and takes a MoK for 2pts. No ws5, Furious Charge or fearless. But it's only 15pts for the csm not 19 like the zerker. if you're tacking on banner costs and the like it's an apples to oranges comparison.

More generally zerkers are cover costed because csm are over costed, at least in comparison to tactical SM. Compare any of the traits they get along with combat squads and ATSKNF for 1pt more than a CSM.

 

... I have no clue what you just said. I understood "a quick question". after that.... it's like you just threw a bunch of letters and words on the board to make it look like you typed something.

 

This user's problem is that he believes the Chaos Space Marines are over priced. Therefore, when you compare the berzerkers to the chaos space marine for a sense of reasonable point values, you are making the assumption that the chaos space marines are a good base line from which to draw your comparison and our user does not agree. The suggestion he makes is for you to use the space marine tactical squad from the Index Astartes as a more appropo unit from which to derive prices. Of course this is a bad standard to use as it constantly assumes a complete vaccuum around every individual unit when making a comparison.

 

I more avidly support your current approach where by you price the unit based on preformance in conjuncture with the rest of the codex units from the codex to which the unit belongs. This is because I believe that balancing the codex internally should take priority over balancing the codex externally (as we all know that codex creep exists and destroys balance with every new release).

 

As for my concerns, I think the Tzeentchian Gateway power is just a bit over the top for utility. Comparing to the 4th edition "lash of submission", which dealt no damage, and the current damage dealing powers, (such as smite) this seems to be better than the best of both. My best guess as to what might even things out would be to drastically lower the strength of the hits to 3 or 4 or eliminate them completely. My reasoning is as follows: The sorceror's unit will likely have 10 marines to get the second warp charge granted via Tzeentch's Favor, which means on average the power will be used to move a unit 12." As the direction is random for enemy units, there is no telling what might happen UNLESS the controlling player has the ability to group the enemy tighter for template spam, which would be tragic for the opposition. For friendly units, the ability to effectively add 12" to a charge means a hands down turn 1 charge (6+12+2d6" which averages to 25"). But what if 2 units cast the power on 1 friendly unit in a turn? That's a hellacious 37" turn 1 charge. What if the power is cast on flesh hounds of khorne? 12" scout move + 12" calvary move + 12" gateway move + 2d6 charge is 43" first turn. With all of that in mind, a potentially huge wound pool to add in the mix is extremely heavy handed. (hopefully all well explained)

 

okay now I'm on the same page. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Just to spell out how I arrived at the point total for comparison of Berzerkers to Mark of Khorne Chaos Space Marines:

 

for 1 Chaos Space Marine:

base price: 13 points per model

you get 1 Boltgun,  and a bolt pistol on a Power armored marine that gives you 1 attack.

+2 points to take a close combat weapon (I know you can exchange the bolter for one for free)

+2 points for Mark of Khorne.

 

Okay, so right now we're at 17 points for a marine that gets 4 attacks on the charge. Adding the price of for an icon is a bit difficult in this example as it's one price for an upgrade to the unit. So we will assume that there are 10 models in the unit just because 10 is a nice round number and its not an unreasonable number of models to expect to be in the squad.

So, Icon of Wrath is 20 points for the squad. So with 10 models we can assume the icon works out to be 2 points per model. Yes, it would work out to be 1 point per model if you take 20 marines in the squad. I will acknowledge that point. But it's pretty rare to see 20 man units of Chaos marines.

 

So now that regular Chaos Space marine is 19 points (approximately) and gets 4 attacks on the charge with S5 thanks to furious charge. As a nice extra they also get counter attack. all in all a nice little package for 19 points. Now lets look at Khorne Berzerkers for comparison.

 

So Khorne berzerkers are 19 points a model. For that 19 points we get 1 attack base, plus 1 attack for having a close combat weapon and a pistol, and 2 more attacks for having rage. Giving us 4 attacks at S5 thanks to Furious charge. Okay nice package... wait didn't we already go over this? They're the same as Chaos Space Marines with the upgrades?! Yes, the Khorne Berzerkers get are Weapon Skill 5 so they're gonna be hitting most marines on a 3+ instead of a 4+. Okay that's nice.

 

And..... what? That's really about it as a point of comparison between a Mark of khorne with Icon wrath and second close combat weapon. Yes Khorne Berzerkers can take a Chain Axe which gives them +1 strength and AP4 for 3 points, raising the average price of the berzerker to 22 points a model.

 

At the end I have the Chaos Space marine with most of the benefits of the Khorne berzerkers and still having the versatility of having a bolter and being backed up by a special weapon and possibly a heavy weapon as well. In a straight out knock down close combat brawl, yes the berzerker is going to win. But if that Berzerker gets caught out in the open by ranged fire it can't even reliably return fire. That's the comparison I was drawing between the Mark of Khorne Chaos Space Marine and the Khorne Berzerker.

As for my concerns, I think the Tzeentchian Gateway power is just a bit over the top for utility. Comparing to the 4th edition "lash of submission", which dealt no damage, and the current damage dealing powers, (such as smite) this seems to be better than the best of both. My best guess as to what might even things out would be to drastically lower the strength of the hits to 3 or 4 or eliminate them completely. My reasoning is as follows: The sorceror's unit will likely have 10 marines to get the second warp charge granted via Tzeentch's Favor, which means on average the power will be used to move a unit 12." As the direction is random for enemy units, there is no telling what might happen UNLESS the controlling player has the ability to group the enemy tighter for template spam, which would be tragic for the opposition. For friendly units, the ability to effectively add 12" to a charge means a hands down turn 1 charge (6+12+2d6" which averages to 25"). But what if 2 units cast the power on 1 friendly unit in a turn? That's a hellacious 37" turn 1 charge. What if the power is cast on flesh hounds of khorne? 12" scout move + 12" calvary move + 12" gateway move + 2d6 charge is 43" first turn. With all of that in mind, a potentially huge wound pool to add in the mix is extremely heavy handed. (hopefully all well explained)

I think I follow everything you've laid out. But I think you've also over looked a couple things.

 

you asked "What if 2 units cast the power on 1 friendly unit in a turn?" Great. You've just wasted half of the warp tokens used because we did specifically put a limiter in there of 'no unit may be moved in this manner more then once per turn.' for pretty much that exact reason. So no you can not spend 4 warp tokens to move the unit 24". A- the power has a limit of 3 tokens and B- the power can not be cast on the same target twice in a turn.

 

As for the question about launch the flesh hounds (Admittedly that does bring up a very amusing image of a khorne style kitten cannon) I'll be honest if you are willing to risk that unit of Khorne hounds taking the potentially 12 S7 hits, AND with your own caster suffering the potential 12 S7 hits to give those pups the extra 12" in their move... I'm not exactly opposed to letting you do it.

 

Now, all of that being said I did get a couple test games in tonight using the Thousand Sons rules and revamped Tzeentch power table. I never did roll the Tzeentchian gate so I can't comment on that much (Though I want to get a few games in under my belt with that power to really test it out and develop a working opinion of it). I did get the Warp Time power though and I've developed a concern about that. Well that coupled with the "The Sorcerer Commands" rule. In a unit with 10 Thousand Sons and an Aspiring Sorcerer, assuming the Sorcerer passes his psychic test he can buff the Thousand sons, TWICE! Once with re-rolling failed wounds -OR- failed to hits, =AND= by giving the Thousand Sons BS5. Having gotten a couple games in like this I feel that there needs be some sort of limiter put in place so that the Aspiring Sorcerer that is attached to the unit can EITHER use warp time, OR enhance the Thousand Sons unit. if you want to spend the points to have an HQ lord use Warp Time to buff the unit of Thousand Sons in addition to the Aspiring Sorcerer giving them BS5, that I think is fair.

 

Thoughts on that?

[maverike_prime]

Ok that works.

 

My question was, Under the changesyou are making is it possible for me to atleast have the option of having units with the same special rules as plague marines.

 

ie: terminators, Lords, Havocs, Bikes, Chosen...etc with -1I, +1T, FNP so that they match my PMs

 

... I think my brain stopped. I'll have to get back to you.

[maverike_prime]

Can I make a suggestion that Possessed get to choose from a list of six mutations, two movement, two offensive and two defensive. Similar to obliterators the same mutation could not be taken two turns in a row.

 

Options could include beast movement, some kind of frag grenade effect, shred or rending, shrouded etc.

 

Could also add the option for the entire unit to take a gift of mutation for 5pts a model?

 

Just an idea.

 

Also on dedications I get where you're coming from but bikes have riders too, who could also be marled. Also the extra armour toughness boost should also remove the ability to turbo boost so that it's not such an auto include.

 

you are most welcome (and I will add extremely encouraged) to make suggestions. The only thing that I ask is that when you make a suggestion provide an explanation or justification behind the suggestion.

 

You do raise a very valid point that bikers have riders that could be (I'm assuming you meant to say) marked. It is not an invalid point in the slightest and I don't out right disagree with it. As I said, I'm also not entirely sold on the dedications as I have them written out just now. Like I explained, I see vehicles as being dedicated while foot troops are marked. Bikers are kind of in that middle point. They're not vehicles but they have vehicles, and their not foot troops. So yeah... do they get treated like Vehicles or do they get treated like foot troops? Not totally sure just yet. I suspect after I get a couple games in with the Biker rules I won't be any closer to a hard and fast answer and will simply have to say "Okay bikes are being handled like [vehicles/foot troops] for the purpose of god affiliation" and it will be that simple. I have to make a decision and there isn't a right one to make.

[MaliGn]

 

Can I make a suggestion that Possessed get to choose from a list of six mutations, two movement, two offensive and two defensive. Similar to obliterators the same mutation could not be taken two turns in a row.

 

Options could include beast movement, some kind of frag grenade effect, shred or rending, shrouded etc.

 

Could also add the option for the entire unit to take a gift of mutation for 5pts a model?

 

Just an idea.

 

Also on dedications I get where you're coming from but bikes have riders too, who could also be marled. Also the extra armour toughness boost should also remove the ability to turbo boost so that it's not such an auto include.

 you are most welcome (and I will add extremely encouraged) to make suggestions. The only thing that I ask is that when you make a suggestion provide an explanation or justification behind the suggestion.

 

You do raise a very valid point that bikers have riders that could be (I'm assuming you meant to say) marked. It is not an invalid point in the slightest and I don't out right disagree with it. As I said, I'm also not entirely sold on the dedications as I have them written out just now. Like I explained, I see vehicles as being dedicated while foot troops are marked. Bikers are kind of in that middle point. They're not vehicles but they have vehicles, and their not foot troops. So yeah... do they get treated like Vehicles or do they get treated like foot troops? Not totally sure just yet. I suspect after I get a couple games in with the Biker rules I won't be any closer to a hard and fast answer and will simply have to say "Okay bikes are being handled like [vehicles/foot troops] for the purpose of god affiliation" and it will be that simple. I have to make a decision and there isn't a right one to make.

Okay then,

 

Currently we have possessed that cost a lot of points for single wound, power armoured model with no ranged weaponry and no grenades, that can only take a rhino as a dedicated transport. OK so they have a 5++ invulnerable save, but that's only slightly helpful when they die like marines to weight of fire.

 

Each turn the possessed can roll on a random D3 table to show the effect of their possession for that turn.

 

My idea is that if they are a range of selectable effects that can't be used in repetition that this represent the mutation without the 'lol: chaos=randoms' that the internet claims games workshop are fixated on. This is basically the way both obliterators and mutilators work currently.

 

As to the exact nature of the mutation effects they should provide utility to the unit that it currently doesn't have, and while they may form a fairly standard pattern of use, eg turn 1 a movement effect, turn two a defensive buff, turn three a charge with a boost to combat, etc. As each mutation cannot be used limitlessly it would balance out over a game, while hopefully restoring some purpose to the possessed.

 

I initially suggested six but there are quite a few things that it might be good to choose for possessed at some point.

 

Proposed options in the table:

Wings

Beasts

Shrouded

Feel no pain

Frag grenades

Shred

Flamer

 

Most of these options are things that possessed have had access to in the past, either when you purchased the upgrades or when you had to roll at the start of the game or each turn. This method of using them gives the tactical control back to the chaos player while keeping the variety.

 

The idea behind the ability to purchase a gift of mutation for the squad would be to incorporate some of the random back in, with a real chance that there won't be a useful result hence a lower points cost than for a character.

 

With bikes and dedications I think you have to side with marking the marine because characters can buy bikes as wargear, separate to their mark. While I get that any dedication would have to match the mark I think that stacking the upgrades would be too much. Otherwise you'll over complicate character bike upgrades and mark combinations. Of course marks need not do the same thing to every unit, so marks on bikes might do different things than on normal marines, but again danger of over complication rears it's head.

[Chiv]

Perhaps the bikes could take what you have for the legion marines a set of special bike tactics ie: hit and run, scout, hammer of wrath

This would allow the rider to be marked in accordance with prefferred God and not limit what other options to take becuase a nurgle bike with still more increased Toughness = auto include and nurgle bikes are already in favor gotta bring some options to the other gods to equal out :D

[daveNYC]

I really think that the 1k Sons would benefit from changing the Aspiring Sorcerer into a BAMF Sorcerer.

Right now, the IG (or AM if you're digging the new name) can grab a primaris psyker that can access more powers and can be upgraded to ML2. Which, ignoring the LD issue, makes them technically better at magic than the umpteen hundred year old transhumans who have dedicated themselves to the god of magic.

Make the lore of Tzeentch optional and allow the purchase of MLs (but nobody can be stronger than the Sorcerer boss).

from changing the aspiring sorcerer into a what? and what are you talking about lore of tzeentch?

Bad Mother . Lore of Tzeentch / Discipline of Tzeentch, unless I missed it, aren't marked sorcerers still stuck with having to grab at least one power from their patron's list of psyker powers? If not, it's all good, but if that's still the case, we're looking at a sorcerer who is basically a multi-melta, except no melta and firing it can cause his head to explode.

The changes to the 1k Sons are interesting, but we're still looking at a unit that has issues. It's got AP3 up the wazoo, but with all the cover save shenanigans these days (to say nothing of 2++ fests), I don't think having just that makes the 1k Sons a desirable unit.

My personal take would be to make the Sorcerer the linchpin of the unit. So for example:

Remove the base AP -2 effect from the 1k Sons.

Add a rule that allows an auto-success to a LoS roll, but causes ID to the rubric (effectively burning two wounds to save one, more valuable, wound)

Allow the Sorcerer to expend a warp charge, have this count as a Blessing (a use of powers, so a ML 1 can do that an nothing else) that automatically succeeds that to give his unit the same -2 AP with remove cover. This is pretty powerful, but it's something that can be sniped out of the unit, so there's that. This also gives a pretty major incentive to upgrade your sorcerer to ML2, since otherwise he's going just be standing around twiddling his thumbs.

So ideally, what I'd like the rules to support is a bunch of rubrics running around with a powerful sorcerer who can apply a baseline buff and use them as meatshields, and the sorcerer can then throw around additional powers or decide to not buff his unit to throw around even more powers.

[maverike_prime]

Perhaps the bikes could take what you have for the legion marines a set of special bike tactics ie: hit and run, scout, hammer of wrath

This would allow the rider to be marked in accordance with prefferred God and not limit what other options to take becuase a nurgle bike with still more increased Toughness = auto include and nurgle bikes are already in favor gotta bring some options to the other gods to equal out :D

Which is why I took away the mark of nurgle option on the bikers.

[maverike_prime]

I really think that the 1k Sons would benefit from changing the Aspiring Sorcerer into a BAMF Sorcerer.

Right now, the IG (or AM if you're digging the new name) can grab a primaris psyker that can access more powers and can be upgraded to ML2. Which, ignoring the LD issue, makes them technically better at magic than the umpteen hundred year old transhumans who have dedicated themselves to the god of magic.

Make the lore of Tzeentch optional and allow the purchase of MLs (but nobody can be stronger than the Sorcerer boss).

from changing the aspiring sorcerer into a what? and what are you talking about lore of tzeentch?

Bad Mother . Lore of Tzeentch / Discipline of Tzeentch, unless I missed it, aren't marked sorcerers still stuck with having to grab at least one power from their patron's list of psyker powers? If not, it's all good, but if that's still the case, we're looking at a sorcerer who is basically a multi-melta, except no melta and firing it can cause his head to explode.

The changes to the 1k Sons are interesting, but we're still looking at a unit that has issues. It's got AP3 up the wazoo, but with all the cover save shenanigans these days (to say nothing of 2++ fests), I don't think having just that makes the 1k Sons a desirable unit.

My personal take would be to make the Sorcerer the linchpin of the unit. So for example:

Remove the base AP -2 effect from the 1k Sons.

Add a rule that allows an auto-success to a LoS roll, but causes ID to the rubric (effectively burning two wounds to save one, more valuable, wound)

Allow the Sorcerer to expend a warp charge, have this count as a Blessing (a use of powers, so a ML 1 can do that an nothing else) that automatically succeeds that to give his unit the same -2 AP with remove cover. This is pretty powerful, but it's something that can be sniped out of the unit, so there's that. This also gives a pretty major incentive to upgrade your sorcerer to ML2, since otherwise he's going just be standing around twiddling his thumbs.

So ideally, what I'd like the rules to support is a bunch of rubrics running around with a powerful sorcerer who can apply a baseline buff and use them as meatshields, and the sorcerer can then throw around additional powers or decide to not buff his unit to throw around even more powers.

yes, Sorcerers with Mark of Tzeentch are still required to make at least 1 of their power rolls on the Discipline of Tzeentch Table. However, we've completely revamped the table making it much more diverse and interesting.

Doom bolt is now the Primaris power. Range 24" Strength 8 Armor Pen 1 assault 1 is never a bad option in my book.

1-2 gives you Horror strike. "Hi, I'm gonna add D6 Horrors to my unit for this turn. Oh wait, I'm gonna spend 3 Warp token on this casting so it's actually going to be 3D6 horrors. They vanish at the end of the turn but still, that's an average of 17 extra wounds in unit. Oh, and when they vanish the unit they were locked in combat with suffer D4 S4 Hits. Oh and those hits have have the haywire special rule. Bye bye vehicles.

3-4 Gives you Tzeentchian gate way. Hey I get to move my unit an extra D6" per warp charge expended on this power. So my relentless 2w marines can now effectively move 24" this turn. Or if I want to be really dickish I'll move your unit that distance. Oh you don't Mark of Tzeentch... guess what? that unit moves the 24" in a random direction AND takes D6 S7 hits. Per warp charge expended. I used 3. So you're taking 3D6 S7 hits. Yeah.... enjoy the trip boys.

5-6 gives you Warp Time. Yeah... I was having a lot of fun with this power last night. if I spend 1 warp charge I can make a friendly unit re-roll it's failed to hits. If I expend 2, I can make a friendly unit re-roll failed to wounds. If I expend 3.... I get to make an enemy unit re-roll successful armor saves.

and I've never heard of a Line of sight test. Where is that in the book?

[daveNYC]

Look Out Sir test.

 

The new and improved Tzeentchian powers are much better than those in the codex, but I would still prefer to be able to improve the ML level of the sorcerer and choose whatever to being ML1 and being limited to one of four powers.

 

About Warp Time, forcing a unit to reroll armor saves is nice, but between cover saves and the fact that 1k Sons have AP3, I'm not sure it's total awesomesauce.  For three warp charges, I'd say force re-rolls on successful saves period.  The only thing it'd be useful on is TEQ, I'm not sure (and too lazy to calculate) what the stats are for a 2+ with a reroll on success vs. say a 4+ or 3+ cover save.  Not to mention that even with the extra charges per 10 models, you're still probably only going to be having three warp charges with an HQ.  Getting 20 rubrics is expensive, not to mention you'd need to hope that they all survive long enough to get into casting range.

[zyl-]

Well we can't just make the units invincible.

[daboarder]

Perhaps the bikes could take what you have for the legion marines a set of special bike tactics ie: hit and run, scout, hammer of wrath

This would allow the rider to be marked in accordance with prefferred God and not limit what other options to take becuase a nurgle bike with still more increased Toughness = auto include and nurgle bikes are already in favor gotta bring some options to the other gods to equal out

Which is why I took away the mark of nurgle option on the bikers.

As a nurgle player this attitude worries me

Can I expect to loose all my Toughness boosts in these rules, because T5 is just too much in your opinion? really? in a game with so much S6+ floating around?

[MaliGn]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the bikes could take what you have for the legion marines a set of special bike tactics ie: hit and run, scout, hammer of wrath

This would allow the rider to be marked in accordance with prefferred God and not limit what other options to take becuase a nurgle bike with still more increased Toughness = auto include and nurgle bikes are already in favor gotta bring some options to the other gods to equal out :D

 

Which is why I took away the mark of nurgle option on the bikers.

As a nurgle player this attitude worries me

 

Can I expect to loose all my Toughness boosts in these rules, because T5 is just too much in your opinion? really? in a game with so much S6+ floating around?

I think it's because he's added a toughness boost available to all bikers that an additional boost from mark of nurgle would give toughness seven bikers which is just crazy powerful.

[maverike_prime]

Perhaps the bikes could take what you have for the legion marines a set of special bike tactics ie: hit and run, scout, hammer of wrath

This would allow the rider to be marked in accordance with prefferred God and not limit what other options to take becuase a nurgle bike with still more increased Toughness = auto include and nurgle bikes are already in favor gotta bring some options to the other gods to equal out

Which is why I took away the mark of nurgle option on the bikers.

As a nurgle player this attitude worries me

Can I expect to loose all my Toughness boosts in these rules, because T5 is just too much in your opinion? really? in a game with so much S6+ floating around?

I think it's because he's added a toughness boost available to all bikers that an additional boost from mark of nurgle would give toughness seven bikers which is just crazy powerful.

Thank you Malign! I was wondering when someone was going to notice that little tidbit.

[maverike_prime]

Perhaps the bikes could take what you have for the legion marines a set of special bike tactics ie: hit and run, scout, hammer of wrath

This would allow the rider to be marked in accordance with prefferred God and not limit what other options to take becuase a nurgle bike with still more increased Toughness = auto include and nurgle bikes are already in favor gotta bring some options to the other gods to equal out

Which is why I took away the mark of nurgle option on the bikers.

As a nurgle player this attitude worries me

Can I expect to loose all my Toughness boosts in these rules, because T5 is just too much in your opinion? really? in a game with so much S6+ floating around?

I'm sorry... where did I say.... any of that?

[Lagrath]

Plague Marines and Oblits also overpriced, in case you weren't looking at changing them, haha.

 

I think PMs should be 21 points base, Oblits should be 60 points base, and heldrakes should be 185 points base. Also couldn't hurt to make Typhus 210 including that every MC and MC (char) has str 10 attacks now, and EW is everywhere.

Edit: I also think people will laugh at all bikes being T6 across the boards even for other gods if you buy some super chaos bike upgrade, and disregard this project. I would just make things cheaper, but keep Marks the same.

[MaliGn]

Plague Marines and Oblits also overpriced, in case you weren't looking at changing them, haha.

 

I think PMs should be 21 points base, Oblits should be 60 points base, and heldrakes should be 185 points base. Also couldn't hurt to make Typhus 210 including that every MC and MC (char) has str 10 attacks now, and EW is everywhere.

Edit: I also think people will laugh at all bikes being T6 across the boards even for other gods if you buy some super chaos bike upgrade, and disregard this project. I would just make things cheaper, but keep Marks the same.

That's why I suggested causing the toughness upgrade to have a drawback such as a loss of turbo boost, (bike is now too heavy) to offset the power of the upgrade. Although I do like the idea of toughness 6 bikers without the mark of nurgle i 'm not sure that this is the best option. Personally I think that no bike should go over toughness 5 - the old nurgle marks never used to able to be taken by bikers iirc.

 

On another note:

 

Warp talons, as described in the background are set loose after specific prey, I think that the best way to factor this in, could also rescue them as a unit.

 

Peerless hunters: select a target for the warp talons at deployment, this should be an enemy unit deployed on the tabletop. If the warp talons are held in reserve the following apply: if the warp talons deep strike within 12" of the target unit, they do not scatter, and they may assault the target unit only in the turn they arrive from deep strike.

 

This should make them actually make some sense in what they are supposed to do, rather than the current mess where they arrive and then just die. This might make them a little too good.

[Cheex]

As a Khorne player, I immediately focused in on the Berzerker update and have some feedback.

 

Blazing Charge - I don't like it. Killing even just one or two enemy models means that the Berzerkers are more likely to fail their charge, and is the main reason why I rarely shoot with my Berzerkers at all before charging (the other reason being that I don't want to wipe out my target on the charge!). Add this to the potential loss of charge range thanks to Overwatch, and your rule actually makes Berzerkers worse on the charge (unless they're fighting particularly tough units, in which case they're going to have to purchase a couple of plasmas to make the rule worthwhile).

 

Excoriator Chain Axe - unfortunately, it doesn't seem to do much for the unit. I love the idea, but it doesn't improve their utility in any way. Make it count as an Eviscerator (S*2 AP2 Melee, Two-Handed, Armourbane) and then we're talking!

 

Ravager Blades - great idea, sadly I think it's misplaced. I reckon Chainaxes should lose their AP value and simply gain Shred. It makes the 3pts per model useful against any opponent and might even be worthwhile.

 

Here's what I would do to make Berzerkers usable again:

• Reduce the base cost to 17pts. This reflects their extremely limited utility, but their overall cost will increase once you start piling on the upgrades. MOK CSM in your rules will still be cheaper and at least have access to
• Add the ability to purchase up to two Eviscerators in the unit for 20pts each, and any number of Chainaxes (CCWs with Shred) for 3pts each.
• Add one of the rule ideas below. As it stands, Berzerkers rarely reach combat - and if they do, they often mince their enemy and stand around holding their chainaxes while getting blasted apart by the opponent in the next turn (or else get bogged down in a hopeless combat). The idea with these is that they become less likely to be stranded in the open, so pick one:

  a ) Berzerk Charge: Berzerkers do not suffer from the Disordered Charge rule;

  b ) Blood Frenzy: if a Berzerker unit wins a combat, they gain the Feel No Pain rule for the duration of the next player turn;

  c ) Maelstrom of Gore: if a Berzerker unit wins a combat, they gain the Shrouded rule for the duration of the next player turn;

  d ) Pit Fighters: consolidation moves by Berzerkers can be used to move into base contact with an enemy unit, even if they were not locked in combat with the Berzerkers or disengaged due to falling back or using the Hit & Run rule. If the target unit is not already locked in combat and had not already fired Overwatch in that turn, they may immediately resolve an Overwatch attack against the Berzerker unit. After this, the units become locked in combat.

• I wouldn't say no to giving Furious Charge the +1 Initiative bonus again ;) But that may be asking too much for the points reduction.

While they still lack a reliable method of reaching combat (though a Drop Pod option may help), this will hopefully start to make them scary again.

[maverike_prime]

As a Khorne player, I immediately focused in on the Berzerker update and have some feedback.

Blazing Charge - I don't like it. Killing even just one or two enemy models means that the Berzerkers are more likely to fail their charge, and is the main reason why I rarely shoot with my Berzerkers at all before charging (the other reason being that I don't want to wipe out my target on the charge!). Add this to the potential loss of charge range thanks to Overwatch, and your rule actually makes Berzerkers worse on the charge (unless they're fighting particularly tough units, in which case they're going to have to purchase a couple of plasmas to make the rule worthwhile).

Excoriator Chain Axe - unfortunately, it doesn't seem to do much for the unit. I love the idea, but it doesn't improve their utility in any way. Make it count as an Eviscerator (S*2 AP2 Melee, Two-Handed, Armourbane) and then we're talking!

Ravager Blades - great idea, sadly I think it's misplaced. I reckon Chainaxes should lose their AP value and simply gain Shred. It makes the 3pts per model useful against any opponent and might even be worthwhile.

Here's what I would do to make Berzerkers usable again:

• Reduce the base cost to 17pts. This reflects their extremely limited utility, but their overall cost will increase once you start piling on the upgrades. MOK CSM in your rules will still be cheaper and at least have access to
• Add the ability to purchase up to two Eviscerators in the unit for 20pts each, and any number of Chainaxes (CCWs with Shred) for 3pts each.
• Add one of the rule ideas below. As it stands, Berzerkers rarely reach combat - and if they do, they often mince their enemy and stand around holding their chainaxes while getting blasted apart by the opponent in the next turn (or else get bogged down in a hopeless combat). The idea with these is that they become less likely to be stranded in the open, so pick one:

  a ) Berzerk Charge: Berzerkers do not suffer from the Disordered Charge rule;

  b ) Blood Frenzy: if a Berzerker unit wins a combat, they gain the Feel No Pain rule for the duration of the next player turn;

  c ) Maelstrom of Gore: if a Berzerker unit wins a combat, they gain the Shrouded rule for the duration of the next player turn;

  d ) Pit Fighters: consolidation moves by Berzerkers can be used to move into base contact with an enemy unit, even if they were not locked in combat with the Berzerkers or disengaged due to falling back or using the Hit & Run rule. If the target unit is not already locked in combat and had not already fired Overwatch in that turn, they may immediately resolve an Overwatch attack against the Berzerker unit. After this, the units become locked in combat.

• I wouldn't say no to giving Furious Charge the +1 Initiative bonus again But that may be asking too much for the points reduction.

While they still lack a reliable method of reaching combat (though a Drop Pod option may help), this will hopefully start to make them scary again.

Wow Cheexta, that sounds like you're trying to go back to the 3.5 berzerkers so hard it's making my head spin.

[maverike_prime]

Chaos Lord:

 

Chaos Lords are the heart and soul of any given war band. It is their will that forms it, their will that shapes it, and their will that will maintain it or kill it. it's not like with a Chapter Master who has undying obedience from those under his command. No, a Chaos Lord must unit the forces under his command and he must be able to fight to maintain that control. Most accomplish this by gathering warriors that are of like minds to themselves.

 

http://www.mgc-projects.com/chaoscodex/cards/5-04-14%28chaos_lord%29-thumb.png

[maverike_prime]

okay, I've been mentioning I was working on something for a while now. It's not finished by any stretch, but I feel it's at a position that it can be talked about.

So what am I talking about? Well I'm basically rebooting the entire project and revamping the project. To help with organization and coordination I've set up a website for the project.

Check it out here:===> Chaos Codex

[MaliGn]

You could do with adding details of which unit have information in them compared to being more placeholder pages.

[maverike_prime]

You could do with adding details of which unit have information in them compared to being more placeholder pages.

 

You mean like:

 

Units with (Codex) displayed next to their name have not been modified in any way from their current entry in the Codex: Chaos Space Marines. They have been included in the list

for the sake of completeness.