Reign of Chaos (A Chaos Revamp project)

[maverike_prime]

*weeps* Those are the chosen and Khorne Beserkers I want.  Seriously, if I could somehow hack into GeeDub's servers and release a "Chaos Space Marines FAQ" that just copy-pasted that chosen and Khorne beserker entries along with a few other instances...It'd be all good in the hood.

 

So what are you waiting for? Go use them in a game.The only thing I ask is that you post battle reports about using them so we can get more feed back about how they're working out.

[Lord Xcapobl]

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/plague_marines%28thumb%29.png

 

 

The only thing I wonder, is why they don't have the option to take a Heavy Bolter. One of the most iconis pieces of artwork shows a Plague Marine with one (at least it was advertised as such).

 

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090912170203/warhammer40k/images/a/a3/Nurgle-Full.jpg

[maverike_prime]

 

 

 

The only thing I wonder, is why they don't have the option to take a Heavy Bolter. One of the most iconis pieces of artwork shows a Plague Marine with one (at least it was advertised as such).

 

 

 

 

huh, I'll be damned. I did forget to put that in there. Yeah they are supposed to have the ability to take a Heavy Bolter. Thanks for the catch. Lemme go fix that now.

[incinerator950]

Anyone familiar with Plague bolts? One of the FW charcters had them with his bolt pistol and I can see them here potentially as as an upgrade for Plague marines\nurgle lords.

[maverike_prime]

Anyone familiar with Plague bolts? One of the FW charcters had them with his bolt pistol and I can see them here potentially as as an upgrade for Plague marines\nurgle lords.

 

do you remember which book he was in? I can look into it.

[Sception]

I've always been a fan of poison on both melee weapons and projectile weapons (bolters, bolt pistols, heavy bolters, autocannons) as a potential distinguishing rule either for mark of nurgle or plague marines, possibly freeing up feel no pain as a more generally accessible option for chaos (think about it, thousand sons have no body to feel pain, both noise marines and berzerkers have their brains surgically altered to experience pain as pleasure during battle, and even unaligned chaos marines eventually mutate or fuse with their armor or see their flesh burn away leaving them as walking flaming skeletons or whatever.  Point is, the eye of terror is a dimension of pain, and you don't exist in it for long without developing a means of coping with physical suffering.

 

So yeah, I'd like to see FNP as a common CSM rule entirely apart from any given alignment (maybe a standard thing for cults & chosen, or maybe a 'chaos armor' upgrade for characters and elite units, I don't know).  Common access to that rule could be a distinguishing factor of the faction as a whole, and nurgle's specialists could be represented via some combination of poison attacks, bonus toughness, or stealth/shroud as per nurgle damons.

[daboarder]

I've always been a fan of poison on both melee weapons and projectile weapons (bolters, bolt pistols, heavy bolters, autocannons) as a potential distinguishing rule either for mark of nurgle or plague marines, possibly freeing up feel no pain as a more generally accessible option for chaos (think about it, thousand sons have no body to feel pain, both noise marines and berzerkers have their brains surgically altered to experience pain as pleasure during battle, and even unaligned chaos marines eventually mutate or fuse with their armor or see their flesh burn away leaving them as walking flaming skeletons or whatever.  Point is, the eye of terror is a dimension of pain, and you don't exist in it for long without developing a means of coping with physical suffering.

 

So yeah, I'd like to see FNP as a common CSM rule entirely apart from any given alignment (maybe a standard thing for cults & chosen, or maybe a 'chaos armor' upgrade for characters and elite units, I don't know).  Common access to that rule could be a distinguishing factor of the faction as a whole, and nurgle's specialists could be represented via some combination of poison attacks, bonus toughness, or stealth/shroud as per nurgle damons.

Make it a generic icon?

 

personally I always felt that tying the icons to specific marks was a massive mistake

[Sception]

I think an icon per mark isn't a bad idea, but there should be more than one generic icon available to all.

 

FNP, however, like marks themselves, is something I'd rather not have tied to a snipable icon.  I'd rather that either be an upgrade (part of vets?  armor upgrade?  veteran skill option?), or an inherent aspect of elite CSM units (ie, ICs, cults, vets, termies, and possessed would just have it).

 

just my own preference, though.

[daboarder]

Eh, the fearless, FC, FNP, Fear parts of marks shouldnt be snipeable anyway. the only part you lose should be the buff to combat res (and the telehomer if we still had that)

[maverike_prime]

My biggest issue with feel no pain is how it''s being spammed all over the place in the last couple editions. In 4th, there were like 3 units, in the entire game that could get it. And that was cool. But now we've got units that give it to everything with in a radius, and other units that can grant it other units given whatever circumstances. Because of this Feel no pain spam the games turning into musical saves. The way I original viewed Feel no pain was "I took a bolt round in the arm, meh ignore it and deal with it later." But the way's it being spammed now it's like "Eh, I just took a lascannon to the face. Whatever. just walk it off."

[Sception]

Unless your T5, you don't get FNP to lascannons.  Unless that changed in the new rules?

 

The idea that plague marines don't feel pain, but berzerkers, noise marines, or, especially, rubric marines do just always struck me as somewhat ridiculous.

[Iron_Within]

Criticisms and suggestions

The layout of the chosen implies that Terminators can take melta bombs. Suggest adding into the sentence "Champions in power armour or fleshmetal may take:"

You can take a narthecium (which I like) but also the banner of Excess. These do the same things. How will these interact if at all.

I suggest changing your number in your Thousand Sons to "9". 9 is Tzeentch's sacred number and would be nice and fluffy. So for every 9 TS you can take a Heavy Bolter, every 9 TS a Sorcerer generates another Warp Token.

Lastly, Your rules are not updated for 7th I don't think. They work, but seem a little off in place. TS for example, the warp token - is that specifically for the Sorcerer or does it go in the pool for everyone? Because if it is the latter shouldn't you just have TS generate power dice?

[maverike_prime]

Unless your T5, you don't get FNP to lascannons.  Unless that changed in the new rules?

 

The idea that plague marines don't feel pain, but berzerkers, noise marines, or, especially, rubric marines do just always struck me as somewhat ridiculous.

 

guess what I got to see last night? 15 Dark Eldar Grotesques, foot slogging across the field at me... that had feel no pain. T5, 3 wounds. Feel no pain. That just ate 11-16 Lascannon shots a turn for 3 turns.

 

I've heard the argument for all of the Cult troops to have feel no pain, multiple times. Enough times it's become tedious actually. And it only exemplifies my annoyance with the rule being spammed the way it has been. At this point, it made more sense to me that Plague Marines get 2 wounds and Thousand Sons get the Feel no pain because Plague Marines will simply absorb damage that would otherwise kill normal men and even marines some times. They will still feel it, but it's not sufficient damage to really stop them. Thousand Sons on the other hand... well they have no body so... yeah. If it doesn't kill them, they ignore it.

 

Criticisms and suggestions

Lastly, Your rules are not updated for 7th I don't think. They work, but seem a little off in place. TS for example, the warp token - is that specifically for the Sorcerer or does it go in the pool for everyone? Because if it is the latter shouldn't you just have TS generate power dice?

 

yeah, a lot of the Berzerkers and Thousand suns were written before I got a lot at the 7th ed rules. Yeah for getting smacked in the face with a new edition!!!!

[maverike_prime]

hey Malisteen,

 

You had previously mentioned thoughts for Dark Mechanicus materials and upgrades. Do you have any thoughts or ideas on that topic that you can list off here and explain some?

 

Side question: What would people say to the idea of The Defiler and HelBrute getting access to EctoPlasm cannons and Hadas Autocannons?

[Sception]

May be a bit much on the helbrute, kind of obsoletes some of its more iconic weapons.

 

On the defiler, sure, possibly as options in place of the battle cannon as well or instead of in place of the arms?

 

I don't know.

 

 

As for dark mech options - as I mentioned to you, I haven't put as much thought into that yet as I have into icon variants. I do have some loose sketch thoughts, though, for upgrades that smith, which would probably also replace their mechatendrils if you wanted to take them? Right now they fall into a few different categories:

 

1) bodies

- Bike body: gain bike, optional sidecar w/ heavy weapon upgrades or instead of the sidecar option to buy back tendrils?

- Terminator body: lose fleshmetal, pistol. Gain terminator armor, combi bolter, options for shoulder mounted guns or to buy back the tendrils.

- Obliterator body: gain daemon, obliterator weapons, +1 wound?

 

2) misc

- Some sort of psychic crown or neural interface which allows the Warpsmith to dominate weapon spirits, allowing a friendly vehicle in base contact or which the smith is embarked on to use the smiths ballistic skill in place of its own? Or fire weapons at full ballistic skill that would normally be snap fired? or both? But maybe at a risk of lost hull points or weapon destroyed results? Maybe would also grant some sort of bonus to machine curse? I'm not sure.

 

- Something that influences deep strike scatter. reducing friendly scatter within the area of effect (12" bubble?) by d6, but making enemy units that attempt to arrive in the area scatter d6" more (or just d6, if they wouldn't normally scatter).

 

3) arcanotech

- such items would each provide one or more additional warp charge die in the psychic phase, and would have built in 'powers' that could be cast (and denied) in the normal way. Basically they would turn smiths into pseudo psykers, but that purchase specific powers via gear instead of generating them normally.

 

I have no idea what specific abilities I would do this way, though. I only started thinking about these at all with the advent of 7th edition, but it seems like a gimmick that could well convey the sort of daemonic magitech that dark mechanicus units should be known for.

 

 

Again, I haven't put much thought into this stuff yet, though. The main idea is 'the dark mechanicus should have a variety of weird chaos technology, which should be represented as several exclusive options for smiths, they shouldn't all look the same'.

 

I'd also like smiths to have the option of a 3 wound profile, and maybe an 'up to 3 per slot' 1 to 2 wound IC version w/ reduced Ws/Bs/S/T/Armor as an elites, a sort of non-marine chaos heretek, though such might fit better in a lost and the damned / renegades army list.

[maverike_prime]

May be a bit much on the helbrute, kind of obsoletes some of its more iconic weapons.

 

On the defiler, sure, possibly as options in place of the battle cannon as well or instead of in place of the arms?

 

I don't know.

 

 

As for dark mech options - as I mentioned to you, I haven't put as much thought into that yet as I have into icon variants. I do have some loose sketch thoughts, though, for upgrades that smith, which would probably also replace their mechatendrils if you wanted to take them? Right now they fall into a few different categories:

 

1) bodies

- Bike body: gain bike, optional sidecar w/ heavy weapon upgrades or instead of the sidecar option to buy back tendrils?

- Terminator body: lose fleshmetal, pistol. Gain terminator armor, combi bolter, options for shoulder mounted guns or to buy back the tendrils.

- Obliterator body: gain daemon, obliterator weapons, +1 wound?

 

2) misc

- Some sort of psychic crown or neural interface which allows the Warpsmith to dominate weapon spirits, allowing a friendly vehicle in base contact or which the smith is embarked on to use the smiths ballistic skill in place of its own? Or fire weapons at full ballistic skill that would normally be snap fired? or both? But maybe at a risk of lost hull points or weapon destroyed results? Maybe would also grant some sort of bonus to machine curse? I'm not sure.

 

- Something that influences deep strike scatter. reducing friendly scatter within the area of effect (12" bubble?) by d6, but making enemy units that attempt to arrive in the area scatter d6" more (or just d6, if they wouldn't normally scatter).

 

3) arcanotech

- such items would each provide one or more additional warp charge die in the psychic phase, and would have built in 'powers' that could be cast (and denied) in the normal way. Basically they would turn smiths into pseudo psykers, but that purchase specific powers via gear instead of generating them normally.

 

I have no idea what specific abilities I would do this way, though. I only started thinking about these at all with the advent of 7th edition, but it seems like a gimmick that could well convey the sort of daemonic magitech that dark mechanicus units should be known for.

 

 

Again, I haven't put much thought into this stuff yet, though. The main idea is 'the dark mechanicus should have a variety of weird chaos technology, which should be represented as several exclusive options for smiths, they shouldn't all look the same'.

 

I'd also like smiths to have the option of a 3 wound profile, and maybe an 'up to 3 per slot' 1 to 2 wound IC version w/ reduced Ws/Bs/S/T/Armor as an elites, a sort of non-marine chaos heretek, though such might fit better in a lost and the damned / renegades army list.

 

a 3 wound, 3 per slot option may be a bit much given the rest of the army. Not sure just yet but it's something to put on the table and consider. Still, I don't see a problem with making a "Dark Adeptus Wargear" table and limiting it to Warp Smith/Forge Masters.

 

As for my question about the defiler and helbrute, I've honestly forgotten what my original intention of the idea was. I've been talking with folks about it so much I can't remember what it was I started with. Anyway, what it's become is that I'm thinking the defiler should start out much more stripped down then it currently does. Here's where my thought process has lead me:

 

Defiler....................... 150 points

Wargear: Twin-linked Ectoplasm Cannon

Reaper Autocannon

Twin-linked Heavy flammer

Daemonic Possession

Searchlight

Smoke Launchers

 

Special Rules:

Daemon

Daemonforge

Fleet

It Will Not Die

 

Options:

+ May replace Twin-linked Ecto-plasm Cannon with Battle Cannon....................... 25 points

+ May take up to 2 Power fists............................................................................... 10 points each

+May replace Twin-linked Flammer with one of the following:

- Havoc launcher................................................................................................... 5 points

- Power Scourge................................................................................................. 25 points

- Power Fist........................................................................................................... 5 points

+ May replace Reaper Autocannon with one of the following:

- Power Fist............................................................................................................ free

- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter................................................................................... free

- twin-linked Lascannon..................................................................................... 20 points

[incinerator950]

I'd say the scourge can get a 5 or 10 point reduction, but thats nitpicky. Twin linked ectoplasm is also very helpful. I have a couple Defiler weapon ideas, but they're not important. Like being able to replace one or two of the weapons for a/the baleflamer\s. Taking two twin linked autos for our own kind of Hydrafiler for AA. That sort of stuff. Add the demolisher cannon or nova cannon to purchase too, I see the Defiler as the Russ having a baby with a crab, versatile.

 

I do suggest adding a helbrute armor upgrade, or coming up with our own ironclad variant. Then cult dedications, Sorc dreads, walking reactor bombs. I'm skimping detail because I haven't slept yet.

[maverike_prime]

I see the Defiler as the Russ having a baby with a crab, versatile.

'versatile' isn't the word that comes to mind from that image.

 

Though I do feel obligated to reference the Blastoise pre-roll segment of this video in response to that comment.

 

As for an AA variant of the Defiler.... I'll need to mull that around for a bit.

[maverike_prime]

So with some feed back from over on Dakka Dakka, I had a couple brains storms.

 

First, about And They Shall Know No Fear.

 

Talking about it on Dakka Dakka got me thinking about the special characters, namely Typhus, Huron, Lucius, Khârn, Abaddon, and Ahriman. Well those and comparing it to my prior comments about the lack of loyalty in a Chaos Renegades army. I mean Abaddon and Khârn and the like, yeah they are brutally imposing individuals, and they have earned that role. They know fear, and it doesn't phase them. Giant super daemon? Whatever. Been there, beaten that. Got the skull. Monsterous Tyranid Creature? Okay I'll keep an eye on the extra arms but other wise this should be fun. Facing down an army of the corpse emperors' half-breed dogs? Yeah, not worried about it.

 

So, The Chaos Lord, Ahriman, Abaddon, Khârn, Huron, Typhus, and Lucius will get ATSKNF.

 

Well I did say it's a 2 point note, so here's the second point. The Chaos Commander, Havocs, Chaos Space Marines, Bikers and raptors are getting a new rule called "They know no fear, nor loyalty." Basically when/if the unit is caught by a sweeping advance it is not destroyed but rather remains locked in combat.

 

Now, here's the part I haven't been able to decide on: Chaos Legionaries vs Chosen.

 

I had explained earlier that I'm not sure making the Legionaries was a good idea because they seem like they're competing with Chaos Chosen. Well here is a point that exemplifies it. Should Chosen have ATSKNF to be representative of their status and still continuing the suggestion that this unit could also represent members of the Legions? Or should they get Know no fear, nor loyalty while Legionaries get ATSKNF this way allowing the Legionaries to have a claim on ground as a different unit, while representing the Legions at least in passing?

 

Now I had mentioned that I had been thinking about Obliterators. I don't really know where this particular idea came from but I like the idea if not the exact implementation of it. I'll keep my explanation to a minimum and rather just post the spread for the Obliterators:

 

http://mgc-projects.com/projects/chaos_codes/Obliterators(thumb).png

[maverike_prime]

Okay I know it's been a while, and for that I appologize. Starting a new job, dealing with my dad getting a new heart valve, and then with my mom getting a new knee. So yeah... time went bye bye for me. But I've gotten some work done. I'll elaborate:


First thing: Ahriman. I had originally added a Spell familar to Ahriman and had intended to make it more then just a regular spell familiar. Well whatever my original thought was, it has been lost. So for the moment, Aepio counts as both a spell familiar and a Combat familiar. I'm not totally sold on this approach, and I may return to it later. I'm just not sure what to do with it. Still keeping the option that if you take Ahriman you gain the ability to upgrade Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerers to Mastery Level 2 for 15 points. Giving the ability to upgrade for free seemed too game breaking while making it the standard 25 points per seemed like too much of an extra tax on top of buying Ahriman.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/Chaos%20Space%20Marines/Chaos%20Codex%20Revamp/8-23-14/thumbnails/ahrimanthumb_zps36663f54.png

Next thing, Obliterators. The Obliterator weapon levels still bother me but for reasons i can't really explain. I like giving them the ability to purchase additional capabilities in terms of weapons, better to represent the older more capable Obliterators that would be in more demand but harder to convince to join the respective Warlord.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/Chaos%20Space%20Marines/Chaos%20Codex%20Revamp/8-23-14/thumbnails/Obliteratorsthumb_zpsf76c9811.png

Chaos Chosen, I upped their Max size to 20. Nothing more to say there.

here are the two big things I've managed to hammer out in the last 6 hours:

The Chaos Boon Table: That has been dramatically reduced in size going from 30 results to a far more manageable 10 options. The Dark Apotheosis result is still the big one you really want to hit, but is no longer the "Hey you just went full on retard daemon prince!" Now, it's what was the Multiple boob result with acquiring D3+1 boon rolls.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/Chaos%20Space%20Marines/Chaos%20Codex%20Revamp/8-23-14/thumbnails/lost_and_damned_01_zpsa5f7be61.png
Lost and Damned section 1, includes the Chaos Boon Table.

Lastly, I had half an idea for the Mutilators and that is making them better versions of what they are through the replacement of the generic "two X Weapons" with more characterful, and deadlier manifestation weapons. Something closer to the upgraded weapon options for the Obliters, these new weapon options still cover the gamut from many smaller attacks to massive heavy hitting attacks intended to rip apart armor.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/Chaos%20Space%20Marines/Chaos%20Codex%20Revamp/8-23-14/thumbnails/mutilatorsthumb_zpsf1d0be30.png
Mutilator Spread

As always, feed back and battle reports are greatly encouraged.

[Guest arbitor marduk]

How about mos termis with fnp?

[maverike_prime]

How about mos termis with fnp?

What about them?

[maverike_prime]

Okay, so Oblits were broken. I'll admit it. I figured no one would honestly want to pay 125 points for a 2 wound model. Well... A) I was wrong there, and those weapon levels were broken too. So they got scrapped. Oblits are basically back to Codex. Extra point of leadership and fearless.

the Mutilators. After going back and looking at the weapons I came up with for them… yeah. They’re just not working. So I’ve revamped the Mutis returning their weapons options to what is in the book as it stands. But that still brings us back to the problem with the Mutis in the beginning: They’re assault specialists… that can’t reliably assault. Being slow and Purposeful meant they can’t run so they’re limited to the 6″ move followed by a charge if they were in range, which becomes a big if.

One person on Facebook recommended giving them fleet and while that would address the problem, something about it didn’t sit right with me. I just couldn’t reconcile the visual image of this massive lumbering daemon/mecha monster barreling forward into a charge. And then I was watching Transformers Beast Wars. The character of Optimus Primal transforms into a Gorilla and in the 2nd half of the premier episode everyone was fighting in their beast forms. Optimus knuckled charged across the field to slam into Megatron. Suddenly it semi-clicked. I wasn’t totally sure until I went to work. We have a clip from the 2005 King Kong playing in the theater department and I happened to catch it as I was helping a customer. That was what got the image for me! That’s how Mutilators will count as beasts! They’re not fast running four legged horses or cheetahs. They’re barreling monsters that slam into their enemy. So I’ve made Mutilators Beasts AND to represent the ‘smashing’ of said charging, they now get hammer of wrath.

But this leads to a bit of an issue: pricing on the Mutilators. See Mutilators are 55 points. Or rather in the standard Codex they are. But they’re also Slow and Purposeful there. Removing that rule basically doubles their move rate and then giving them Hammer of Wrath gives them an extra attack when they charge (Yes yes I know it’s not a +1 attack but seriously, you know what I mean). So… what’s a good price for that break down? Well here’s the logic I followed:

Removed Slow and Purposeful: +5 points

Changed type to Beast: +10 points

Gained Hammer of Wrath: +5 points

Gained Fearless: +5 points

Went up to LD 9 base: +10 points

Giving us a net increase of +35 points. So I set the Mutis at 80 points each. What do you think of that? Agree or disagree with my logic?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/Chaos%20Space%20Marines/Chaos%20Codex%20Revamp/8-25-14/thumbnails/mutilatorsspread_zpsb84d4eba.png

High Res version

[Kythnos]

I like the idea you've got there for the Mutilators. Though for the pricing I was wondering, why you'd charge them 10 points for Ld9 when they're fearless already? Isn't that basically paying for nothing gained, really? And if Mutilators were to become beasts, I think we should compare them to Thunderwolves, who - as cavalry unit - function very similarly and have comparable stats, yet are a whole lot cheaper. Or to rephrase it: aren't Mutilators quite a bit overpriced for their stats and equipment already and should their price in the current codex really be used as the basis for a new calculation? Personally, I think this and the expensive LD-boost in your update makes them too expensive, even as beasts. 65 points sounds like something I's be willing to pay for a beast Mutilator.

[maverike_prime]

I like the idea you've got there for the Mutilators. Though for the pricing I was wondering, why you'd charge them 10 points for Ld9 when they're fearless already? Isn't that basically paying for nothing gained, really? And if Mutilators were to become beasts, I think we should compare them to Thunderwolves, who - as cavalry unit - function very similarly and have comparable stats, yet are a whole lot cheaper. Or to rephrase it: aren't Mutilators quite a bit overpriced for their stats and equipment already and should their price in the current codex really be used as the basis for a new calculation? Personally, I think this and the expensive LD-boost in your update makes them too expensive, even as beasts. 65 points sounds like something I's be willing to pay for a beast Mutilator.

Comparing them to thunderwolves is not something I had considered. That would change the pricing by quit a bit. I'll look into that. (once my ipad wants to download the book anyway)