Strength of the Ultramarines after Calth and Shadow Crusade

[Lonewolf86]

I'm looking to get some thoughts as to the Ultramarines' operating strength after Calth and the Shadow Crusade. I want to consider the number of astartes they may have had, their fleet strength, mechanicum and titan support and other assorted materiel (tanks, gunships armour etc).

 

Firstly astartes:

From Know No Fear I believe it is stated the ultramarines numbered 250k before the war. I would guess they may have lost around 100k  in the immediate fighting at Calth.

 

From Betrayer we see the Word Bearers and World Eaters scouring Armatura and it is assumed from events in this book and Unremembered Empire that there were a number of battles and skirmishes over many worlds. Also there will be continued losses amongst those on Calth in the Underground War. I am estimating maybe 50-60k casualties here with damage (sometimes critical) to a hundred or so worlds of Ultramar.

 

After the 17th and 12th legions leave and warp storms begin to subside in Ultramar and the route to Terra I would guess the 13th might be standing with 100k astartes (I would guess they could assemble ten thousand or so new recruits in these five years or so from their other barrack worlds?)

 

Fleet:

They took massive losses and damage at Calth, Armatura and else where so I would reckon maybe fleet strength at 20 to 30%? Other smaller shipyards on other worlds and links to nearby mechanicum facilities maybe means they could replace losses especially in smaller ships over this time to get back toward 40% of original?

 

Assorted materiel:

I would envisage that the 13th would be able to fully equip all their warriors with standard weaponry and armour taking into account probably good stockpiles and enough built in redundancy over their 500 worlds. At Calth they probably lost a good number of their superheavies but any lost smaller vehicles would probably be replaced easily enough.

 

Allied Mechanicum and Titan Legions

I imagine these (especially the latter) took a battering and were severely weakened in the fighting with not much opportunity or time to replace losses.

 

Any thoughts or errors?

[Augustus]

Interesting question. Their gene seed being as pure as the Dark Angels(muaha) in 40k leads me to believe that they didn't use too many accelerate growth/implanting procedures.

 

If the shadow crusade wasn't "too terrible" I imagine that they could replenish their manpower fairly quickly.

 

At the end of it I imagine that they are around 30k-100k strength.

[Lonewolf86]

I figured they couldn't take too many losses as being the defenders in most situations they could expect to kill an enemy for every one of theirs they lost. So if they lost 50-60k during The Shadow Crusade then so would the 12th and 17th. If the World Eaters lose any more I can't see how they'll stand at more than a few thousand after Terra.

[Sevatar]

Yeah, I've never understood how the World Eaters still exist due to the huge casualties they took.

[Conn Eremon]

Yeah, I've never understood how the World Eaters still exist due to the huge casualties they took.

Systems-wide recruitment drives focusing on the quantity over the quality.

[Lord Khammon]

They survive because they are one of the biggest Legion (around 150'000 before Isstvan III) and they use Angron's own genetic material to stabilise and speed up the implantation procedures (Grabiya's Theorem).

[Captain Idaho]

It's feasible the Ultramarines have a massive store of geneseed they can draw upon to replenish losses at a higher rate than can be expected for other Legions.

 

Secondly I think it's an over estimation of how many engagements the Ultramarines are fighting in the Shadow Crusade. Armatura is an insanely well defended world that required two whole Legions, including fleet assets, to break, yet the Ultramarines were very low in number there.

 

So if the Ultramarines aren't even there fighting then they can't suffer that many casualties. ;)

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I think they are sitting somewhere around 130K. We know they lost at least 100K and most of there fleet at Calth but most of the Ultramarines killed in the Shadow Crusade were small pockets so I'd say they lost 20K extra as a rough estimate.

[Conn Eremon]

They lost how many at Calth? It has been a while since I read Know No Fear, but it didn't even seem like there were a hundred thousand Marines between the two forces.

[Kais Klip]

 

Yeah, I've never understood how the World Eaters still exist due to the huge casualties they took.

Systems-wide recruitment drives focusing on the quantity over the quality.

 

With quality being produced in the training processes which included live-ammunition training exercises. 

[Plague Angel]

They lost how many at Calth? It has been a while since I read Know No Fear, but it didn't even seem like there were a hundred thousand Marines between the two forces.

 

Having just finished reading it an hour ago:

 

Out of 250k total Ultramarines, 200k are at Calth, and about 50k Word Bearers.

 

100k Ultras are lost due to the sheer surprise of the attack.

[Augustus]

It's 150k World Bearers unless I'm much mistaken.

[Kol Saresk]

 

They lost how many at Calth? It has been a while since I read Know No Fear, but it didn't even seem like there were a hundred thousand Marines between the two forces.

Honestly I don't even remember Know No Fear even mentioning numbers.

[Karthak]

It's 150k World Bearers unless I'm much mistaken.

From Know No Fear:

 

And you can add to their mass the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII, the Word Bearers.

 

An Ultramarine chapter is 10.000 marines, so the Word Bearers sent 50.000 to Calth. 150.000 would have been almost the entire Legion.

 

Regarding the Ultramarine presence:

 

Today, at Calth, twenty of the XIII’s twenty-five Chapters will conjunct for deployment. Two hundred companies. Two hundred thousand legionaries. The remainder will maintain garrison positions throughout the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

It's 150k World Bearers unless I'm much mistaken.

From Know No Fear:

 

And you can add to their mass the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII, the Word Bearers.

 

An Ultramarine chapter is 10.000 marines, so the Word Bearers sent 50.000 to Calth. 150.000 would have been almost the entire Legion.

 

Regarding the Ultramarine presence:

 

Today, at Calth, twenty of the XIII’s twenty-five Chapters will conjunct for deployment. Two hundred companies. Two hundred thousand legionaries. The remainder will maintain garrison positions throughout the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar.

 

 

Forgeworld's Massacre concerning the Unit Organization and Structure of the Word Bearers:

"Companies were grouped together into Chapters between 500 and 3,000 warriors."

 

It isn't safe to assume a Chapter in one Legion is exactly the same as a Chapter in another. Especially since some Legions don't have Chapters.

 

So this could be anywhere from 2,500 to 15,000 if "only five Chapters" were present.

[Vazzy]

But that's not what that quote is saying Kol. It's saying theres the equivalent of 5 Ultramarine chapters in Word Bearers at Calth.

[Kol Saresk]

But that's not what that quote is saying Kol. It's saying theres the equivalent of 5 Ultramarine chapters in Word Bearers at Calth.

And you can add to their mass the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII, the Word Bearers.

 

The equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII is equivalent to five Chapters of the XIII then?

[Karthak]

 

But that's not what that quote is saying Kol. It's saying theres the equivalent of 5 Ultramarine chapters in Word Bearers at Calth.

And you can add to their mass the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII, the Word Bearers.

 

The equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII is equivalent to five Chapters of the XIII then?

The entire chunk:

 

The XIII Legion, largest of all the Legiones Astartes, is divided into Chapters, a throwback to the old regimental structures of the thunder warriors. Each Chapter is formed of ten companies. The basic unit currency is the company, a thousand legionaries, plus their support retinue, led by a senior captain. A company, Gage has often heard his primarch comment, is more than sufficient for most purposes. There is an old aphorism, popular in the XIII. It is, perhaps, boastful and arrogant, and there are certain opponents such as the greenskins and the eldar to which it does not apply, but it contains a basic estimation of truth: To take a town, send a legionary; to take a city, send a squad; to take a world, send a company; to take a culture, send a Chapter. Today, at Calth, twenty of the XIII’s twenty-five Chapters will conjunct for deployment. Two hundred companies. Two hundred thousand legionaries. The remainder will maintain garrison positions throughout the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar. Such a gathering is not unprecedented, but it is rare. The XIII hasn’t been oathed out in such numbers since the early days of the Great Crusade. And you can add to their mass the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII, the Word Bearers.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, so the mass of Word Bearers is the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII Legion. Right?

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, well either way, the Ultramarines outnumbered the Word Bearers at Calth.

[Plague Angel]

Okay, so the mass of Word Bearers is the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII Legion. Right?

 

It's being said from the Ultramarine point of view.

 

If it were just chapters as the XVII reckoned them, it wouldn't say "the equivalent of." It tells you how the Ultramarines organize their chapters (10,000 each) and then tells you that the Word Bearers sent the equivalent of five of those. So the Word Bearers send 50,000 Astartes, but presumably measure them in some other way than "five chapters."

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Okay, so the mass of Word Bearers is the equivalent of five Chapters of the XVII Legion. Right?

 

It's being said from the Ultramarine point of view.

 

If it were just chapters as the XVII reckoned them, it wouldn't say "the equivalent of." It tells you how the Ultramarines organize their chapters (10,000 each) and then tells you that the Word Bearers sent the equivalent of five of those. So the Word Bearers send 50,000 Astartes, but presumably measure them in some other way than "five chapters."

 

 

Okay, for some reason my brain was reading it backwards.

[Lonewolf86]

How many new recruits do you reckon they have each year? I would expect 2 or 3 thousand a year-an average of 60 males from each world in the 500 hundred each year? This might be more like 2 thousand because of interruptions caused by the Shadow Crusade. So they could add at least 10k new recruits before the end of the Heresy. Maybe more if they rush things and carry out full implantation on younger recruits than normal.

[Kol Saresk]

Too small. The Dark Angels were able to put out something like four thousand in only two or three training cycles. just from Caliban.

[Conn Eremon]

That was also considered to be the most extremely efficient output seen among the Legions though, right? Question is, though, is that per world or per Legion? Because if it's the former, then I would agree with Kol that Lonewolf's numbers are too small.

 

Or was that shortened period considered a yearly output? Two or three training cycles is how long? What training cycles? Selection to full Marine? Beginning to end of implantation process? Did all of the Legions have the same speed? Some, like the World Eaters, seemed to blaze through them. Others, like the Ultramarines, may have taken their time to ensure purity and integrity.

 

However, if the average is 60 or so males from each of the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar, as Lonewolf posits may be the case, the number would actually be 30,000 a year. Not 3,000. If that was the average, then you would see a gain of over 200,000 Ultramarines over the course of a seven year war.

 

Another factor that may need to be considered is that the 250k sized Ultramarines Legion is from one size retcon ago. It went from 25k to 250k when the 10k average went to 100k average over at BL. But now FW has been providing numbers that show 100k to be on the lower end. Not an increase by a major factor like the previous one, but certainly a noticeable shift higher. The Ultramarines might be breaching 300k when their book comes out.