Strength of the Ultramarines after Calth and Shadow Crusade

[calgar101]

In Betrayer wasn't it said that so long as Armatura lives then the Ultramarines legion wouldnt die, it seems they must not recruit from all their worlds only a select few and they must be very strict on who they take. Surely if Guilliman had wanted to he could have had his legion hit the 500k mark.

 

Edit- I agree with you Cormac, I would say when FW covers them, the Ultra's will received a numbers boost.

[Conn Eremon]

I just went through the three currently released books to see if how I've been feeling about the FW numbers was right. Of the Legions so far released, we have seen a 24% increase in the average size, to almost 124k average Legion size. We've got a small Legion in the wings, the Thousand Sons, but also a couple really big Legions as well, the Dark Angels and Ultramarines, as well as a couple average Legions, the Blood Angels and White Scars. I've been hearing talk of the Space Wolves getting a big number boost, so I'm not sure where they'll end up on the spectrum. But it's looking like those left will only increase that average, whatever the Thousand Sons do to lower it. And it won't be much, because we now know that the Raven Guard, sitting at 80-81k, was smaller than the Thousand Sons. I'm expecting it to finally settle at a 33% increase. Nice, easy "increased by a third" percentage.

But, if that 24% increase is applied to the Ultramarines 250k number, they'll be around 310k. If they keep the "2.5 times the size of average," it'll be . . . also 310k. I'm sure if I was more mathematically inclined, that would have been obvious to me and I wouldn't have had to bother thinking it through. If it ends up being 133% increase of the average, the Ultramarines might be as much as 330k. Either way, I doubt it'll be that simple, just applying the average increase to the old numbers, but it gives an idea of how it might look if they do give them an increase. Which, I assume they will, because they ing better.

In case anyone wants to know, here are the numbers I was using:

Legion Lowest Highest

1

2

3 110,000 110,000

4 150,000 180,000

5

6

7 100,000 100,000

8 90,000 120,000

9

10 113,000 113,000

11

12 150,000 150,000

13

14 95,000 95,000

15

16 130,000 170,000

17 140,000 250,000

18 89,000 89,000

19 80,000 81,000

20 90,000 180,000

Edit: Table failed me, so I'll just make it the simple, ugly way.

[Lonewolf86]

I had assumed that recruits were taken from all 500 worlds (I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere, probably in Betrayer) but they would be taken and trained on the planets which were more militaristic-Armatura being the largest.

 

I hope the whole Raven guard being the smallest legion is a mistake. If the thousand sons were over 80k strong the wolves would need to be near the size of the ultramarines to sanction them at prospero.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but 99 of those worlds were completely destroyed birthing the Ruinstorm, Calth was irradiated and Unremembered Empire says that there is still fighting going across several fronts. So I went with a conservative estimate of 300 planets left standing intact(relatively) and able to have recruits drawn from.

 

No, the Wolves wouldn't have to be that large. They are said to be a substantial Legion such as the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors and Iron Hands. now, you might ask "why are the Iron Hands italicized?" The first part of y response would be "good question and thank you for noticing. My second question would then point out that the Iron Hands are a mid-tier strength Legion(number wise) with 113,000 estimated Astartes. Notice, the Iron Hands are a mid-tier strength Legion(number wise) with 113,000 estimated Astartes.

 

So, in order to be "larger", or "substantial", doesn't really take that much. Only thirty thousand Astartes. And for a Legion that only recruits from Fenris and is self-admitted as having small numbers and a high attrition rate, it most likely only has around 100,000.

[Lonewolf86]

I could certainly see the Wolves as being 100k or so. My point is the Thousand Sons can't be a larger legion than the Raven Guard (approx. 80k) before the heresy unless a ridiculous number die of the flesh change. Even with custodes and sisters of silence the Wolves couldn't have attacked and destroyed Prospero if the Thousand Sons had 80k to resist them.

[Kol Saresk]

Hence why since 10,000 are said to be on Prospero, the logical change would be that there were only ten thousand while the rest of the Legion was carrying on the Great Crusade. To keep up with the increase in numbers, the audio drama which repeats ten thousand being there as well as 1,000(combined with audio dramas being harder to reprint) and not to mention the power levels involved.

[Conn Eremon]

So why was there no issue when the Thousand Sons disobeyed direct orders and only took ten thousand back to Prospero? For a full year?

[Kol Saresk]

So why was there no issue when the Thousand Sons disobeyed direct orders and only took ten thousand back to Prospero? For a full year?

Because it would be just a garrison, not the Legion. The majority of the Legion would still be garrisoning other garrisons and fighting the frontlines. Recall the garrison of Dark Angels on Caliban or the Evocatii on Armatura.

 

The only Legion that didn't fight on the frontlines was the Imperial Fists and that's because they were ordered to defend the Sol system.

 

And if you recall, issue was taken with the Sons disobeying the Edict. Its called "the Razing of Prospero".

[Conn Eremon]

They were ordered to take the whole Legion back to Prospero. The Legion. Not a garrison force. If 90% were out and about not doing that, then it was pretty noticeable. But a year later, nothing.

[Kol Saresk]

Look, take it up with Laurie Goulding on The First Expedition. He's the editor. Telling me how you think it should go won't anywhere.

[Conn Eremon]

Already have, waiting a response. Didn't realize you thought I was trying to convince you to change it yourself, or something.

[Wade Garrett]

And now I am imagining Perturabo hearing that Russ culled ten thousand of the XV Legion on Prospero and promptly wigging out because DECIMATION IS HIS THING! HIS THING, :cuss IT, NOT RUSS'S!

[Jareddm]

This is something that's been bugging me for awhile, just as a statistician.  Looking at the numbers regarding the sizes of the legions.  When GW or BL or FW say the legions are 100,000 on average, I really think what they're looking for is that the median of the legions is 100,000, meaning 50% of the legions are at or above 100,000 and 50% are at or below 100,000.  I use 'at' in both cases simply for wiggle room.  This is most likely just a case of "sci-fi writers don't know statistics" but given the rather intense skewness in size among the larger regions, I think it's more reasonable to assume FW is looking to make the median 100,000 rather than ret-conning the size of the legions again.

[Conn Eremon]

While the shift from average to median might be accurate and acceptable, it would be a rather awkward choice of words.

[Jareddm]

Agreed.  I just see it as one of many phrases and bits of lore that sometimes need to be taken not so literally.

[Marshal Rohr]

And now I am imagining Perturabo hearing that Russ culled ten thousand of the XV Legion on Prospero and promptly wigging out because DECIMATION IS HIS THING! HIS THING, :cuss IT, NOT RUSS'S!

:D I just imagined that in a Graham McNeill novel

[Kol Saresk]

Cormac Airt, on 05 May 2014 - 17:37, said:

Already have, waiting a response. Didn't realize you thought I was trying to convince you to change it yourself, or something.

The only thing I thought you were trying to do was make a case for why there should be more Sons on Prospero. But if we want to cut the chase, A Thousand Sons mentions no orders of returning to Prospero to decide the fate of the Thousand Sons. Lemuel even recounts that on the voyage to Prospero, he was still receiving his training.(A Thousand Sons, Page 365) Actually, I take that back. Magnus did order his Legion back to Propero.

Quote

Page 370

 

'From what I hear, the Crimson King couldn't leave Nikaea fast enough. According to Ahriman, the primarch has had all his warriors buried in their cult's libraries since they got back.'

 

'I heard that too,' said Kallista with a conspiratorial smile. 'I even overheard Ankhu Anen talking to Amon about it.'

 

'Did you hear what they were looking for?'

 

'I think so, but I didn't really understand what they said. It sounded like they were looking for ways to project a body of light farther than ever, whatever that means.'

Yes, A Thousand Sons originally says the XV Legion went to Prospero in its entirety. It also says that there were only ten thousand on the planet. That number is also repeated in the audiodramas, which are essentially impossible to reprint. They would have to remake them, which I'm willing to bet is not a cheap endeavor. So because Graham McNeil say there are 10,000 Sons on Prospero, there are ten thousand Sons on Prospero.

 

And honestly, the Iron Hands were in a similar situation and nobody batted an eye. When Fulgrim first came out, everyone misread it as there only being 10,000 Iron Hands at Istvaan V. Upon further rereading, it was disseminated that no, there was an entire expedition, the 52 Expedition, which at the time was of unknown size. It wasn't until Massacre we were made aware of it being two-thirds of the Legion entire.

 

So personally, I don't understand the flip out. Well, I do, but I also recall that when I made a "big deal" over such a "minor" change to the First Heretic, I was told to deal with it because it was "the logical course" even though there was a logical course to avoid such a matter and when pointed out to Laurie Goulding, that logical course to avoid a retcon was taken under advisement. But in this instance, BL has tied its hands by producing the audio version. Maybe, they might figure out how to "reprint" the audiodrama. But until then, they are stuck with the numbers of Sons on Prospero being 10,000. If you can present a logical reason for how to avoid the mess while going through the inevitable retcon by removing the references in A Thousand Sons saying that the Legion only numbered ten thousand, I'm sure he would do the same.

 

But telling me what shouldn't be done and why it shouldn't be done serves no value. I do not work at BL. Whether that is fortunate or unfortunate probably depends on your point of view.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm not sure where you're going with the line of thought that one must work for BL to have a conversation on BL-related materials.

 

I'm also not sure why they would have to reprint or remake anything. When have they ever had a problem with some older material having conflicting information over retconned fluff?

[SteelPaladin]

I am curious to see what the number will be at when A Thousand Sons gets reprinted in hardback. Who knows when that will be though, since the hardback reprints have been released in a wonky order. I can understand the two Dark Angels books released back to back instead of 5 books apart, but I'm not sure why they skipped Battle for the Abyss for Mechanicum. Maybe the knights tie in with Vengeful Spirit?

 

To my knowledge, only the hardback reprints have been updated to reflect the higher legion numbers, trade paperbacks and audios have not been retouched.

[RapatoR]

Well I think their strength is diminished. Badly diminished.

 

It's the point: Horus was so afraid of Ultras he sent two legions at them, to lower their numbers and to isolate them.

[Jareddm]

To my knowledge, only the hardback reprints have been updated to reflect the higher legion numbers, trade paperbacks and audios have not been retouched.

The audios I understand, but it would seem rather silly if the trade paperbacks weren't changed considering they came out after the hardcovers.

[Kol Saresk]

So far the only novels that share audios are A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, to my knowledge. Everything else is either the scripts, or was vague enough that no direct contradictions ensued. So, it is "untested ground" and will more than likely rely on the "vaguest understanding" of what the audios said in order to achieve the reprint.