Kais Klip Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 This one is gonna be strictly alpha legion oriented boys and girls, so lets cut right to the meat. We have four or so origin stories, any combination of which can be the truth; I thought we’d collectively sort what we do and do not know regarding the validity of the scenarios. For consistency, we will name the scenarios as follows: Corsair: Alpharius is found by Horus upon his boarding of the Vengeful Spirit at the head of a pirate fleet Orphan: Alpharius is dropped on a dead world before escaping by encountering a raiding crew of mixed species. Broken Serpent: Alpharius is enslaved by the Slaugth and used by them to sow strife and disruption on prey worlds, before being rescued. The One Left Behind: Alpharius is never scattered, instead growing up at the Emperor’s side. My own contribution: The First Heretic paints the XX pod coming down containing more than two pairs of limbs. Therefore Alpharius and Omegon were indeed scattered from the palace, and scattered together, invalidating The One Left Behind theory. Extermination remarks the Alpha Legion fleet handled itself like a veteran entity, suggesting some truth to the Corsair theory. Vengeful Spirit tells us that the flagship has never been boarded by an outside entity, invalidating the Corsair theory. Orphan and Corsair are not mutually exclusive; the two primarchs could have gotten off-world by murdering the pirate crew and heading to the pirate conglomeration. Thoughts, gentlemen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Can you clarify the veneful spirit has never been boarded part? I'm not familiar with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Thoughts, gentlemen? I am Alpharius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 About that vengeful spirit part;it wasn't the Vengeful Spirit that was boarded, it was some random vanguard ship which Horus was on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted April 26, 2014 Author Share Posted April 26, 2014 MoM, is that information from Extermination? I ask because mine is from wikia (yes, yes…) so I can’t tell what is old fluff and what is new, but the format and composition seemed directly pasted from the book. Yogi; in the new novel, Vengeful Spirit, one… XVI legion member remarks that there are no anti-boarding contingencies for the Spirit because it has never has, and is foreseen to never be () boarded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterofMankind Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Reread Extermination, Alpharius apparently did board the Vengeful Spirit. I seem to have confused the Index Astartes fluff with the new one Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 It definitely states it was the Vengeful Spirit? Pretty sure the old fluff didn't name the ship so have to be sure. In The Serpent Beneath Sheed Ranko (I think) drinks some of Omegon's blood, and through the use of the Omophagea sees the Primarch's memories of their homeworld. I think it describes landing on a dead world. That's from memory mind, hopefully another poster will be able to post the actual quote and correct anything I've left out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 The old fluff never named the ship. It just said the ship Horus was on was boarded. It is assumed to have been the Vengeful Spirit because we have never seen or heard of him being in command of a different ship. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
talos402000 Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 I think the Alpha Legion homeworld is Pythos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Alpha/omegon would have forced themselves to remember false memories, they are sociopaths believing they're own lies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Nope, sorry but there is nothing to even hint at that. Posters have said the same before, it's ludicrous. It's possible to misremember things, and to remember things differently than how they happened, but to create a memory from scratch then have it overwrite an existing memory, the memory of your home, one of the most powerful memories any sentient creature will develop? Nope nope nope nope. At the end of the day, what's the point? Sure some Alpha Legion hijinks have been taken too far recently, but the twin Primarch's somehow overwriting their own memories?Nah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Actually it is possible. The realm of memories is not an exact science. Like some people that it is physically impossible to remember anything before two years of age. That's been proven false so many times its not even funny. And it has been proven that some of our earliest memories aren't necessarily what we actually remember, but is instead a memory that has been colored by the retelling of others' point of views. I know personally the night I left my last job, I remember the night going down one way, and everyone else has their own versions. And honestly, I don't know how much of my memory is actually my memiry and how much I just filled in because at one point I got so mad that I moved fifty feet without even realizing it and its just of a blank spot while everything right up to that moment is fuzzy at best. So while it may not be what happened, it certainly is not impossible. Especially in a future where knowledge can be implanted directly into your brain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Alpha/omegon would have forced themselves to remember false memories, they are sociopaths believing they're own lies Why would they bother? Omegon was knowingly sending Ranko and his team to their death (and Ranko knew it, too), why would it matter if Ranko knew the truth? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemujinZero Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Reflexive secrecy? I don't think there's some hidden origin story that we're being given glimpses of. I think they're just throwing out contradictory snippets and letting us believe what we want. I'd prefer something more concrete, but only if they assign a good author to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Actually it is possible. The realm of memories is not an exact science. Like some people that it is physically impossible to remember anything before two years of age. That's been proven false so many times its not even funny. And it has been proven that some of our earliest memories aren't necessarily what we actually remember, but is instead a memory that has been colored by the retelling of others' point of views. I know personally the night I left my last job, I remember the night going down one way, and everyone else has their own versions. And honestly, I don't know how much of my memory is actually my memiry and how much I just filled in because at one point I got so mad that I moved fifty feet without even realizing it and its just of a blank spot while everything right up to that moment is fuzzy at best. So while it may not be what happened, it certainly is not impossible. Especially in a future where knowledge can be implanted directly into your brain. Exactly. Social experiments have been done showing how easy it is to transplant completely false memories into people. We are capable of convincing ourselves, or of being convinced, and letting our minds fill in the gaps to create a false memory of an event. Especially memories of our youngest years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I actually like a story where Alpharius and Omegon would be separated, Alpharius staying by the Emperor's side and Omegon being found last. Their names would make more sense then: The Emperor naming the first primarch by his side Alpharius and renaming the last one Omegon after he was found. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Alpha/omegon would have forced themselves to remember false memories, they are sociopaths believing they're own lies Why would they bother? Omegon was knowingly sending Ranko and his team to their death (and Ranko knew it, too), why would it matter if Ranko knew the truth? This! Also, about the boarding thing. Alpharius didn't board Vengeful Spirit in the IA article, his fleet cornered a diffent ship and to get any clear idea of the situation horus went over, and discovered thet they had already been boarded and that they were fighting their way up to the bridge, where A dodged H:s boltpistol shots before they recognized each other as brothers. Did they change that in Extermination? Also, the memory bit in TSB was about them conniving and scheming their way to the top on that shadowy planet they grew up on, so no dead world there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfroCampbell Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I actually like a story where Alpharius and Omegon would be separated, Alpharius staying by the Emperor's side and Omegon being found last. Their names would make more sense then: The Emperor naming the first primarch by his side Alpharius and renaming the last one Omegon after he was found. I agree. also, in relation to Chaos induced visions, I do think we must discount them as evidence, and treat them as very biased, yet interesting and useful information. WHY does chaos want to show this? What is the purpose? Is it accurate? Does it matter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Alpha/omegon would have forced themselves to remember false memories, they are sociopaths believing they're own lies Why would they bother? Like Temujin said: Reflexive secrecy? If a sort of self-hypnotic fake memory is what's going on, the only way Alpharius and Omegon could get away with that would be to truly convince themselves of the fake past, so that even when they remember it subconsciously, they remember the fake one. Even in their own heads, when they don't know if anyone's "watching." Because as we can see, someone very well might be. Have you seen the movie The Prestige? I feel like it should be required viewing for Alpha Legion fans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Reread Extermination, Alpharius apparently did board the Vengeful Spirit. I seem to have confused the Index Astartes fluff with the new one Just thought I quote this as people seem to have missed it. It has been changed to be specify Vengeful Spirit. I quite like the idea that Omegron got lost and Alpharius wasn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted April 27, 2014 Author Share Posted April 27, 2014 Reflexive secrecy? I don't think there's some hidden origin story that we're being given glimpses of. I think they're just throwing out contradictory snippets and letting us believe what we want. I'd prefer something more concrete, but only if they assign a good author to it. See thats what I thought at first, but then certain little lines like “who’s fleet already handled themselves with a veteran’s flair” makes me believe that Bligh did drop enough easter eggs as it may for us deduce the correct assumption, much like Alpha Legions designations and names of characters apart from Dynat. The only problem is author credibility; what has been retconned and hasn’t (First Heretic) and what has been a simple mistake (Vengeful Spirit). Talking about Vengeful Spirit, that book also makes it clear any memory shenanigans performed on the primarchs are unlikely to hold at best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 First Heretic has not been retconned. There was talk of it because of the date when Alpharius took command of his Legion, but when it was pointed out that Massacre says the Alpha Legion gets alone time with the Emperor and Alpharius' date of introduction is not the same as the day he took command, Laurie Goulding has not spoken of it since. So it might still get retconned, but to say it is retconned is like saying pot has been legalized in Florida. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Actually it is possible. The realm of memories is not an exact science. Like some people that it is physically impossible to remember anything before two years of age. That's been proven false so many times its not even funny. And it has been proven that some of our earliest memories aren't necessarily what we actually remember, but is instead a memory that has been colored by the retelling of others' point of views. I know personally the night I left my last job, I remember the night going down one way, and everyone else has their own versions. And honestly, I don't know how much of my memory is actually my memiry and how much I just filled in because at one point I got so mad that I moved fifty feet without even realizing it and its just of a blank spot while everything right up to that moment is fuzzy at best. So while it may not be what happened, it certainly is not impossible. Especially in a future where knowledge can be implanted directly into your brain. Exactly. Social experiments have been done showing how easy it is to transplant completely false memories into people. We are capable of convincing ourselves, or of being convinced, and letting our minds fill in the gaps to create a false memory of an event. Especially memories of our youngest years. Um yeah, that's what I said in my post? It's possible to misremember things, and to remember things differently than how they happened, but to create a memory from scratch then have it overwrite an existing memory, the memory of your home, one of the most powerful memories any sentient creature will develop? Nope nope nope nope. Kol, unless you deliberately and consciously created a new memory of what happened the night you left your job then used it to overwrite the existing one, then it isn't at all like what I'm trying to say. My apologies anyway, it doesn't sound like that was a particularly good memory for you. What people are saying is that Alpharius and Omegon deliberately and consciously overwrote their memories of their homeworld with a new version, for no other reason than to stop someone who may somehow be reading their minds from finding out where their homeworld is, a relatively useless bit of information considering it would almost certainly have been conquered by the Imperium anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 And yet is possible. Thanks to the horror of Deliverance Lost, we know new memories can be implanted and old ones removed, or at least blocked. It has also been a common fact of the lore that hypno-indoctrination and knowledge-implanting devices exist. An entire Space Marine Chapter was wiped by the Alpha Legion using mental triggers to turn them into blank slates who only followed orders. I'm not saying it is what happened and I give it as much credence as I do Sevatar becoming a Grey Knight, but just like the Sevatar theory, it might be a possibility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 And yet is possible. Thanks to the horror of Deliverance Lost, we know new memories can be implanted and old ones removed, or at least blocked. It has also been a common fact of the lore that hypno-indoctrination and knowledge-implanting devices exist. An entire Space Marine Chapter was wiped by the Alpha Legion using mental triggers to turn them into blank slates who only followed orders. I'm not saying it is what happened and I give it as much credence as I do Sevatar becoming a Grey Knight, but just like the Sevatar theory, it might be a possibility. Another of my favourite theories Using technology to do it is different, I concede the point that they could have had their memories altered by either a powerful psyker or technology. It's different to what the Alpha Legion in Deliverance Lost do, because they have memories added rather than overwritten, and the Emperor removing memories of Moloch from some of the Primarch, but I can't really say that overwriting memories with new ones is any different than changing existing ones or blocking them entirely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290199-the-lies-tell-the-truth-peeling-back-alpharius%E2%80%99-origin/#findComment-3665929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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