The cheesiest Pask imaginable...

[march10k]

(What sort of tank to give him is not within the scope of this article!)

 

...so, give him two squadron mates and ensure that they're both closer to the enemy...now Pask dies last, right?  Oh, but his pals won't be dying, either.  Put them behind an ADL with Camoflage netting.  That's a 3+ cover save, right?  Now...insert a line of slabshields between the tanks and the ADL.  2+ cover for your command squadron, and the bullgryns get a 4+ cover save on top of their 4+ armor save (you want to spread them out, sacrificing their +1 to ensure they get their shields in front of all three tanks on the cheap...I would take five of them).  Unkillable tanks!

 

It gets worse...you're setting this in a corner so that pask will always be the farthest from the enemy, right?  Well, you put an enginseer behind the middle tank.  Now, not only do you get to repair any damage that leaks past the 2+ cover save, you get POTMS...which means Pask orders the squadron to fire at a separate target, then the enginseer splits their fire again...three unkillable tanks in a squadron firing independently, and the last one to die is your warlord...

 

Cheesy enough?  Runs about 1000 points, lol...You could drop the bullgryns and get it down to around 750, a 3++ should be fine when backed up by AV14...  When Pask plus two squadron mates costs over 600 points anyway, an ADL and an enginseer are a cheap add-on.

[Andhil]

I'm so trying this out sometime. I have all the ingredients, now to cook up a killer meal!

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

For 1000 points it better be cheesy! Sounds like this could be pretty strong but not disproportionate to the amount of points sunk into it.

[cypherthefallenangel]

On 2k plus games ally with DA and take a Power field generator toting librarian and void shield network. Now you have 3-6 void shields, prescience and a 4++ on top of it all.

[temneb]

Unless your playing someone that has a lot of ignores cover. That's a lot of points invested for Guard and Tau (do elder have ignores cover?) to just ignore the main benefit/trick. It's a perfect target for barrage weapons, you won't get the cover save from them, look out for that scud thing in the guard codex, str 10, ap 1, barrage.

[march10k]

For 1000 points it better be cheesy! Sounds like this could be pretty strong but not disproportionate to the amount of points sunk into it.

 

Considering that three tanks with nothing but camo nets (always a good buy!) cost 500, Pask and the ADL bring you over 600, It's not insane...  If any part of that isn't worth the points, it's the bullgryns...they only bring you from a 3+ cover save to a 2+, which is not huge, and give you an assault speedbump...might not be worth the ~250 points.  Overall, this setup is probably worth more than twice as much as just taking three tanks in separate heavy support slots for 500 points.  But, like I said, I'd probably go without the bullgryns and get 90% of the value for 70% of the points.

 

 

Unless your playing someone that has a lot of ignores cover. That's a lot of points invested for Guard and Tau (do elder have ignores cover?) to just ignore the main benefit/trick. It's a perfect target for barrage weapons, you won't get the cover save from them, look out for that scud thing in the guard codex, str 10, ap 1, barrage.

 

Really?  Not a lot of cover-denying weapons out there that pen AV14...

 

/edit/

 

Overall, I see tank commanders taking camo netting and an ADL, and then ensuring that their squadron mates are closer to the enemy as a standard feature going forward.  The question is, other than DSing where the ADL isn't (I'm not sure this is possible, you could make an L in a corner and cram three sponson-less tanks inside, I think) with melta weapons, how will other codexes handle this tactic?  It makes the warlord point really hard to get at, and gives you three tanks that get all of the benefits of squadron rules, but still lets you fire independently...from behind 3+ cover!

[WarriorFish]

Are we talking mature cheddar or double Gloucester cheese here? I get confused, this is why I prefer the term "beardy". Less open to misinterpretation.

 

It's certainly a nasty trick, albeit expensive as Nico pointed out. Even the budget version is good though. The thing you need to remember that as funny and effective as these tricks can be they're just that - and all tricks stop working after they've been sprung on an unsuspecting opponent.

[march10k]

Any insight into how stashing a command squadron with camo netting behind an ADL might be countered?  
 
As for "beardy," being less open to interpretation, are we talking a wispy wiggins, a soup-saver, or a dangle-swaggles?
 
http://zouchmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/beards2.jpg
 
(hint:  The appropriate response is "touche!")

[WarriorFish]

The appropriate response is touché

I think there's a few counters, for example it provides no protection against combat which is always going to be an issue with expensive tank squadrons. A nasty barrage weapon could hurt too. You can mitigate these so they're not glaring flaws, but your opponent isn't likely to waste his AT fire bouncing off these so it will probably end up focusing his efforts on the rest of your army.

Cheese food for thought, or to get stuck in your beard

[Captain Idaho]

Ignores cover weapons are pretty nasty and with Divination psykers everywhere I think they'll be available on s frequent basis. Tau could easily hit the squadron with their cheese Hammerheads.

 

Drop Pod squads could circumnavigate your line potentially, whilst fliers see straight over the cover. Daemons and Tyranids can fly over to the Guardstar in a turn and care not for cover.

 

Barrage anti tank though this will be less frequently encountered.

[march10k]

Hmmm.  I guess a divination psycher is going to be very common, given how good prescience is as a primaris power.  On the other hand, even when one turns up, that doesn't always mean they roll up perfect timing.  Then they have to be paired with a serious antitank unit, since you also have to defeat AV14.  It's something that could be catastrophic, but I don't see it, even when the magic combo materializes, PWNing the entire squadron in a single apocalyptic moment.  That would be as likely as my plasma vennie killing raileheads on consecutive turns in 4th edition (killing just one with a plasma cannon is like 1/172 or something), but I guess that happened, so I won't say it can't happen.  I agree that this can spell defeat, but I don't see it as likely enough to force a rethink.

 

Tau...I had that argument with someone in my shop.  Even Longstrike is screwed, since my version of Pask drives a vanquisher, and a railhead is only going to kill one tank per turn...if it can shut down the cover save.  So Longstrike isn't doing more than just killing a wing tank before Pask points at him and says "have that removed."  And I haven't seen more than one railhead (there don't seem to be points left after riptide spam) lately...usually, it is longstrike, though.

 

I haven't tested yet whether I can get three russes without sponsons in a corner with an L shaped aegis line completely walling them  off from pods, but that's the intent.  I think each long piece is about as wide as a tank, so it should work out...worst case, though, pask is, and probably the middle tank, as well, out of double-pen range.  That is DEFINITELY a concern, though!

 

Fliers...generally don't have enough volume of anti-AV14 fire to concern me.

 

Flying monstrous creatures could be a pain...maybe this needs to be combined with a hydra squadron?  I wonder if valkyries would do the trick...

 

As you say, barrage antitank shooting is almost nonexistent.

 

WarriorFish,

 

Sue me, I was too lazy to cut and paste the funky "e" off a website somewhere :P

[jeremy1391]

Any insight into how stashing a command squadron with camo netting behind an ADL might be countered?  

 

As for "beardy," being less open to interpretation, are we talking a wispy wiggins, a soup-saver, or a dangle-swaggles?

 http://zouchmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/beards2.jpg

 

(hint:  The appropriate response is "touche!")

Barrage weapons like basilisks, manticore, scorpius whirlwinds, marker lighting will invalidate this quickly. However unless someone is using these type of weapons it will be viable against unprepared foes.

[Fibonacci]

The appropriate response is touché

I think there's a few counters, for example it provides no protection against combat which is always going to be an issue with expensive tank squadrons. A nasty barrage weapon could hurt too. You can mitigate these so they're not glaring flaws, but your opponent isn't likely to waste his AT fire bouncing off these so it will probably end up focusing his efforts on the rest of your army.

Cheese food for thought, or to get stuck in your beard

Most Sisters of Battle armies come with 4 to 10 cover ignoring meltaguns as standard right off the bat.

Also, you don't have to go against the AV 14 facing. Deepstrike in behind the ADL and the tanks become vulnerable to bolters.

And then there are the FMC that will vector strike the side armor.

I think against anyone that likes to castle up and stay at range, netting and cover is a good tactic that lets you fire on turn 1 whie the bulk of the army moves in.

And then there is the question of do you really tocounter the unit? If half the army is tired up behind a static defense line, can it real earns its points if I just ignore it and walk away with the relic or hide in terrain of my own sitting on objectives? Depending on what tanks re taken, why bother to counter when you can just stay over 24" away?

Against anyone that relies on mobility or assaults, that's a lot of points that will be lost in a single assault. 150 points of Daemonetts should be enough to explode 2 and wreak the 3rd.

[Bonzi]

Terrain gets deployed after Aegis Defense Line.  I defeat your build by placing a two story building/ruins/tall hill in front of the ADL.

 

The Bullgryns are a better option than the defense line because the opponent won't know where your tank deathstar is going until it hits the board with the Bullgryns in front of it.

[redmapa]

I dont know, if Im going to spend 600pts in a single unit then it's going to be in Pask and 3 Executioners with plasmas, very few units can survive 15 S7 AP2 blasts coming their way.

[Warhead01]

Death strike missile. was the first thing that came to mind to eat your cheese.

[Spacefrisian]

Dont need a Deathstrike missile to crack this one, Indirect fire simply ignores those defenders put in front of tank. All good things come from above.

[Warhead01]

Ya, But Deathstrike!   Why not earn all you victory points in one go?

 

And their was much weeping and gnashing of teeth!

[WarriorFish]

Shh! Don't tell people our secrets uber :lol:

[Spacefrisian]

Jaws of the world wolf would also be funny i imagin, target an Ogryn and hear the scream of that Tech priest behind a tank when the ground swallows him. clever targetting fun.

 

Than there is that Telepathy or Necron dude fun in which you take control of an enemy unit, Pask shooting at his own defending line Ogryns. Options options.

[WarriorFish]

There's a lot of options and tricks these days, so there's going to be quite a few counters to any one thing I reckon :)

[Fibonacci]

There's a lot of options and tricks these days, so there's going to be quite a few counters to any one thing I reckon

That's kind of the key. If you fortify your forward positions, the enemy will flank you. Just ask France what happens when you stack your whole plan into one idea, even if that idea is a good one.

[march10k]

Any insight into how stashing a command squadron with camo netting behind an ADL might be countered?

As for "beardy," being less open to interpretation, are we talking a wispy wiggins, a soup-saver, or a dangle-swaggles?

http://zouchmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/beards2.jpg

(hint: The appropriate response is "touche!")

Barrage weapons like basilisks, manticore, scorpius whirlwinds, marker lighting will invalidate this quickly. However unless someone is using these type of weapons it will be viable against unprepared foes.

I don't ever see manticores or basilisks...Hell, I've been playing since 1999, and I used to own a bassie, but I've never seen a manticore in person, let alone a scorpius (might as well point out that a D weapon would obliterate my squadron, right? Forge world...), so these are not realistic counters.

The appropriate response is touché

I think there's a few counters, for example it provides no protection against combat which is always going to be an issue with expensive tank squadrons. A nasty barrage weapon could hurt too. You can mitigate these so they're not glaring flaws, but your opponent isn't likely to waste his AT fire bouncing off these so it will probably end up focusing his efforts on the rest of your army.

Cheese food for thought, or to get stuck in your beard

Most Sisters of Battle armies come with 4 to 10 cover ignoring meltaguns as standard right off the bat.

Also, you don't have to go against the AV 14 facing. Deepstrike in behind the ADL and the tanks become vulnerable to bolters.

And then there are the FMC that will vector strike the side armor.

I think against anyone that likes to castle up and stay at range, netting and cover is a good tactic that lets you fire on turn 1 whie the bulk of the army moves in.

And then there is the question of do you really tocounter the unit? If half the army is tired up behind a static defense line, can it real earns its points if I just ignore it and walk away with the relic or hide in terrain of my own sitting on objectives? Depending on what tanks re taken, why bother to counter when you can just stay over 24" away?

Against anyone that relies on mobility or assaults, that's a lot of points that will be lost in a single assault. 150 points of Daemonetts should be enough to explode 2 and wreak the 3rd.

Ok, dominions are a legitimate threat. Good thing I'm the only sisters player in my area, and they're not popular on the tournament circuit.

You're right about not having to go against the AV14 facing, but suggesting that I'd leave my rear armor open to deepstrikers is insulting. The ALD forms an L in a corner so the back of the formation and one side are protected by the board edge, and the front and other flank are behind ADL panels. You do have the option of shooting at AV13 side armor, though...

FMC are another legitimate threat...actually a scary one, since they only fall out of the sky 1/3 of the time. What counter would you suggest, fliers or hydras? I was planning to field some valkyries anyway, and hellstrike missiles would put a hurting on a FMC, followed by multilaser torrenting...gotta fail some saves, right? Since this is an HQ choice, though, there's room in my heavy FOC for some air defense...

I don't think you understand how I would field this. It's not half of my points. I'm not doing the bullgryns, just the ADL pask, and the techpriest. And who wouldn't have at least three battle tanks in his list anyway? It's hard to justify an AYEIOB claim here, except that the tanks wouldn't be spread out (depending on LOS, they might not be spread out in any case).

Blindly assuming that it'll be three demolishers? golly gee??!? In my case, it would be pask in a vanquisher (yeah, not a punisher, I like range and I dislike counting on rending) and two LRBT squadron mates. Gotta have table-spanning range if I'm castling my tanks in 3+ cover. To suggest that I would be dumb enough to immobilize myself and then take short-ranged tanks is...odd. But if you want to just squat in cover and eat pieplates, go ahead. We'll see who achieves his objectives if you ignore my tanks.

t's also unrealistic to suggest that you can just walk right up unmolested and punch the tanks without fighting your way through a mob of infantry first. The daemonettes that you cite would eat 60 points of guard, then get shot to bits by their vengeful platoon-mates.

Terrain gets deployed after Aegis Defense Line. I defeat your build by placing a two story building/ruins/tall hill in front of the ADL.

The Bullgryns are a better option than the defense line because the opponent won't know where your tank deathstar is going until it hits the board with the Bullgryns in front of it.

Putting LOS blocking terrain in front of the ADL (which is in a corner, by the way) means that LOS-blocking terrain isn't somewhere else (where it might annoy me more), and it doesn't prevent flank shots across the long side of the table. You also can't just assume that the right piece of terrain is available and that you'll be able to put it there. If you're using the rules from the book, 1-3 pieces are allowed in that table section. I might get to place the first piece, in which case I'm putting down a buffer of the largest non-LOS-blocking piece I can find so you can't screw with my LOS. And maybe the kids at the next table already used the piece you had in mind, Hmm? Also, the special properties of the ADL are nice, but I can always plop a hill down somewhere else and get a 4+ save that way. Finally, it's a 50 point item...if you negate the ADL, it's hardly a big victory. Besides, I can console myself by putting an objective by the ADL and stash a unit behind it to claim it from outside your LOS.

Death strike missile. was the first thing that came to mind to eat your cheese.

Sure...and Guard players have access to those. Nobody else does. And are you sure I can't kill it before it launches? One gimmicky (though much-improved!) option in one codex does not invalidate an idea, or else nobody would play anything, because everything has a counter.

Jaws of the world wolf would also be funny i imagin, target an Ogryn and hear the scream of that Tech priest behind a tank when the ground swallows him. clever targetting fun.

Than there is that Telepathy or Necron dude fun in which you take control of an enemy unit, Pask shooting at his own defending line Ogryns. Options options.

No ogryns for me...but yeah, puppet master would suck...I don't understand how it sucks more in this scenario than it would in any other one? Hmm?

[Captain Idaho]

Guard allies will be fairly common in any competitive situation (why are you taking this combination in casual play - don't you want friends!), so Manticores will be fairly common counter to stuff like this. Sure you get your basic camo netting but will that save you from 3 templates hitting the whole squadron turn one?

 

Orbital bombardment from Space Marines (often two in competitive games) with ready access to Divination and re rolls to hit (Ultramarines can do it with clever use of Tactical Doctrine and independent character rules).

 

Eldar Knight Titans can and will see over your terrain and could just as easily use psychic powers to bypass your own tricks.

 

Drop Pod units can get side or rear shots.

 

Tau can have multiple anti tank with marker lights. 2 Hammerheads and Broadsides can hurt a squadron in one turn. Piranhas?

 

Etc etc.

 

It's a great trick this but it's most definitely not unbeatable.

 

Not that I'd like to tackle it!

[march10k]

LOL..I don't recall claiming that it's invincible...I'm basically taking a 50 point ADL over and above what I'd be doing anyway.  Also, I'm not taking it for friendlies...as has been pointed out, it's not hard to preemptively slap an apartment building in front of the ADL.  In a tournament, nobody sees me twice, so surprise is preserved! 

 

But, please, Idaho!  I've stated at least three times that there will be no rear shots for drop podders and the side shots will be covered by the ADL. 

 

And Railheads?  My second favorite prey for Pask, after land raiders!  Only longstrike presents a credible threat, and he gets one turn to kill (nearly automatically) one squadron mate before Pask kills him (nearly automatically)

 

Pirhanas and infiltrating melta (shadowsun leading a fusion steath team, especially) are a real threat...but Tau players, at least in my meta, seem to spend all their points on riptides and missilesides, so it's a theoretical, not a practical, threat.