The cheesiest Pask imaginable...

[temneb]

To be fair the Bullgryns featured heavily in your initial post and are needed to get that 2+ cover save. The 3+ is nice, but not über survivable, as everyone has mentioned there is plenty to counter it. If those counters aren't common in your meta great, it may work for you. The rest of us were commenting on the general strength of it.

[WarriorFish]

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't try it (outside of friendly games, of course :P ). As you said everything has a counter so if you worried about that all the time you'd never use anything! :lol:

[jeremy1391]

 

 

 

Any insight into how stashing a command squadron with camo netting behind an ADL might be countered?  

 

As for "beardy," being less open to interpretation, are we talking a wispy wiggins, a soup-saver, or a dangle-swaggles?

 http://zouchmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/beards2.jpg

 

(hint:  The appropriate response is "touche!")

 

Barrage weapons like basilisks, manticore, scorpius whirlwinds, marker lighting will invalidate this quickly. However unless someone is using these type of weapons it will be viable against unprepared foes.

 

I don't ever see manticores or basilisks...Hell, I've been playing since 1999, and I used to own a bassie, but I've never seen a manticore in person, let alone a scorpius (might as well point out that a D weapon would obliterate my squadron, right?  Forge world...), so these are not realistic counters. 

 

 

You must not be in a competitive meta, or you must not have very seasoned guard players.... They are all over texas and Washington state, pretty standard to see a manticore in those areas and they are pretty devastating.

 

And forge world isn't over the top, a scorpius can still get one shotted by a lascannon or missile launcher.

[march10k]

 

 

 

 

Any insight into how stashing a command squadron with camo netting behind an ADL might be countered?  

 

As for "beardy," being less open to interpretation, are we talking a wispy wiggins, a soup-saver, or a dangle-swaggles?

 http://zouchmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/beards2.jpg

 

(hint:  The appropriate response is "touche!")

Barrage weapons like basilisks, manticore, scorpius whirlwinds, marker lighting will invalidate this quickly. However unless someone is using these type of weapons it will be viable against unprepared foes.

 

I don't ever see manticores or basilisks...Hell, I've been playing since 1999, and I used to own a bassie, but I've never seen a manticore in person, let alone a scorpius (might as well point out that a D weapon would obliterate my squadron, right?  Forge world...), so these are not realistic counters. 

 

 

You must not be in a competitive meta, or you must not have very seasoned guard players.... They are all over texas and Washington state, pretty standard to see a manticore in those areas and they are pretty devastating.

 

And forge world isn't over the top, a scorpius can still get one shotted by a lascannon or missile launcher.

 

Ah, I always love the "my meta is tougher than your meta" debates.  I agree that manticores are awesome, I've always wanted one...but I've lived in Georgia, Kentucky, Colorado, Wisconsin, California, Tokyo, and now Kansas City since they came out (which is why I snicker when people crap all over the competitiveness of my meta, I don't really have one, I move too much for that!)...without ever seeing one, let alone playing against one.  Surely ALL of those places can't have weak meta...I'd say KC is prolly the strongest, I had to amp up the cheese to stay in shouting distance of the WAAC players when I got here...what counts as "friendly" here includes stuff like dual wraithknights combined with wraithguard in 500-shot twinlinked wave serpents, or an army of five knights, nothing else.  That's friendly?!?

 

It's not that FW is OTT (I have an avenger on my table ATM), it's that it's not universally accepted.  It wasn't ok at adepticon, and it won't be ok at the midwest massacre, either.  I'm just saying that FW counters are marginally relevant, at best, to tournament cheese, that's all. 

 

Anyway, I do appreciate a lot of the stuff that's been said in this thread, like the dominions' act of faith voiding cover saves (which I hadn't thought of, in spite of playing sisters).  I wasn't ever saying the idea was autowin, I definitely want to hear what kind of counters to anticipate so I can adjust for them.

 

My combativeness is a result of people saying "it's not worth the points," when the only extra points are pask and a techpriest...I'd be taking three or more tanks and an ADL anyway.  So pask isn't worth 70 points?  Or is a techpriest not worth 50?  

 

 

To be fair the Bullgryns featured heavily in your initial post and are needed to get that 2+ cover save. 

 

I take issue with "featured heavilly," that sort of hyperbole hardly counts as "being fair!" They certainly were included in the build, but I think I spent more words on pask and the techpriest.  And then I suggested cutting the bullgryns to get the points down to something reasonable.  I guess you're saying people didn't bother to read past the initial post, though, since I didn't explicitly say that the version I'm running doesn't include the bullgryns until my second post?  I guess that's probably a reasonable assumption for you to make.

[Toomanyprojects]

Legion of the damned with Multi-Meltas. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha, buck buck buck :)

 

Seriously though, I think even Lotd would have a hard time shifting that without dying horribly first though, but they'd probably make enough of a dent to ensure that it isn't too bothersome to the rest of my army that moves around taking all of the objectives :)

[WarriorFish]

You must not be in a competitive meta, or you must not have very seasoned guard players....

Please don't do this, it's not appropriate or a nice thing to do.

march is not saying this is the best thing since sliced bread nor is he saying it's infallible so let's keep to discussing the merits and valid counters. We're all on the B&C to share our hobby and ideas so let's do that

[march10k]

Legion of the damned with Multi-Meltas. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha, buck buck buck

Seriously though, I think even Lotd would have a hard time shifting that without dying horribly first though, but they'd probably make enough of a dent to ensure that it isn't too bothersome to the rest of my army that moves around taking all of the objectives

Or sallies?

[Toomanyprojects]

Legion of the damned with Multi-Meltas. Mwah ha ha ha ha ha, buck buck buck

Seriously though, I think even Lotd would have a hard time shifting that without dying horribly first though, but they'd probably make enough of a dent to ensure that it isn't too bothersome to the rest of my army that moves around taking all of the objectives

Or sallies?

sallies would be okay, but I think the combination of no scatter deep strike, ignore cover and move and shoot with heavies would give the edge to the lotd. Wouldn't hold out much hope for their chances after an alpha strike though...

[Garath]

(What sort of tank to give him is not within the scope of this article!)

 

...so, give him two squadron mates and ensure that they're both closer to the enemy...now Pask dies last, right?  Oh, but his pals won't be dying, either.  Put them behind an ADL with Camoflage netting.  That's a 3+ cover save, right?  Now...insert a line of slabshields between the tanks and the ADL.  2+ cover for your command squadron, and the bullgryns get a 4+ cover save on top of their 4+ armor save (you want to spread them out, sacrificing their +1 to ensure they get their shields in front of all three tanks on the cheap...I would take five of them).  Unkillable tanks!

 

It gets worse...you're setting this in a corner so that pask will always be the farthest from the enemy, right?  Well, you put an enginseer behind the middle tank.  Now, not only do you get to repair any damage that leaks past the 2+ cover save, you get POTMS...which means Pask orders the squadron to fire at a separate target, then the enginseer splits their fire again...three unkillable tanks in a squadron firing independently, and the last one to die is your warlord...

 

Cheesy enough?  Runs about 1000 points, lol...You could drop the bullgryns and get it down to around 750, a 3++ should be fine when backed up by AV14...  When Pask plus two squadron mates costs over 600 points anyway, an ADL and an enginseer are a cheap add-on.

Wonderful idea!

 

  Here's my spin to it:

 

  Pask in Vanquisher , single buddy LR with all plasma

 

  Flanked from both sides with 2 Land Raiders full of Deathwing.  Backed by a PFG Libby on a bike.  They all get 4++ - which is better then 3+ cover out of the reasons :

 

1. It works against stuff that ignores cover

2. against barrage

3. Vector strike

4. Melta

5. Drop podding units

 

  And so on.

 

 First we all target units that can deal with AV 14.   Then the rest

[march10k]

As much as I'm a proponent of the bike-PFG trick (hell, no false modesty, I introduced it!), it's not foolproof, either.  I've had the libby popped early on many occasions, usually by a shooty flier (like my friend's dual dakka-flyrants), sometimes by deepstrikers.  Nevertheless, four AV14 tanks is...nasty, I wouldn't want to be in charge of target priority against that blob of doom!

[Garath]

As much as I'm a proponent of the bike-PFG trick (hell, no false modesty, I introduced it!), it's not foolproof, either.  I've had the libby popped early on many occasions, usually by a shooty flier (like my friend's dual dakka-flyrants), sometimes by deepstrikers.  Nevertheless, four AV14 tanks is...nasty, I wouldn't want to be in charge of target priority against that blob of doom!

  Libby could be taken down...but he can join some cheap IG infantry unit...and do Look outs

[march10k]

A fair point.  I assume you're talking DW as the primary detachment, since you'd want the termies to be scoring, necessitating two DA HQs?  That wouldn't be a bad thing, Pask would be the allied HQ, and an infantry platoon makes a very flexible mandatory troops choice!

[Garath]

You are correct.   Your  PFG Land raider /Iripyofaceof idea:D  and  your PimpmyPask idea :D   just gave birth to an unholy child of (insert deep voice) Doom:

 

  And that makes me the child's Godfather

 

 Deathwing+IG 1743/1750pt.

HQ 

 

Belial  (190)

Term inator arm our; Iron halo; Teleport homer; Storm  bolter; Sword of Silence;

Librarian (95)

Psychic hood; Power armour; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Force weapon; Bolt pistol ; Power field generator; Mastery Level  1;

 

Troops

5x - Deathwing Terminator Squad (260)

§ 1x Deathwing Termi nator Sergeant (44pt.); Terminator Armour; Power sword; Storm bolter;

§ 2x Deathwing Termi nator (49pt.); Terminator Armour; Thunder hammer; Storm  shield;

§ 1x Deathwing Termi nator (49pt.); Terminator Armour; Chainfist; Storm bolter;

§ 1x Deathwing Termi nator (69pt.); Terminator Armour; Powerfist; Storm bolter; Cyclone missile launcher;

 

5x - Deathwing Terminator Squad (260)

§ 1x Deathwing Termi nator Sergeant (44pt.); Terminator Armour; Power sword; Storm bolter;

§ 2x Deathwing Termi nator (49pt.); Terminator Armour; Thunder hammer; Storm  shield;

§ 1x Deathwing Termi nator (49pt.); Terminator Armour; Chainfist; Storm bolter;

§ 1x Deathwing Termi nator (69pt.); Terminator Armour; Powerfist; Storm bolter; Cyclone missile launcher;

 

Heavy Support

Land Raider (250)

Twin-linked heavy bolter; Twin-linked lascannon(x2); Smoke launchers; Searchlight;

 

Land Raider Crusader (250)

Twin-linked assault cannon; Hurricane bolter(x2); Smoke launchers; Searchlight; Frag Assault Launcher;

 

Astra Militarum (438)

HQ

2x - Knight Commander Pask (372)

§ 1x Command Leman Russ  Extermi nator (151pt.); Searchl ight(x2); Sm oke l aunchers; Exterminator autocannon; Heavy bolter; Multi melta(x2);

 

§ 1x Leman Russ  Eradicator (151pt.); Searchlight(x2); Smoke launchers; Eradicator nova cannon; Heavy bolter; Plasma cannon(x2);

 

Troops

10x - Veterans (66)

§ 1x Veteran Sergeant ; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol ; Flak armor;

§ 6x Veteran ; Frag grenades; Lasgun; Flak armor;

§ 1x Veteran (2pt.); Frag grenades; Sniper rifle; Flak armor;

§ 1x Veteran (2pt.); Frag grenades; Sniper rifle; Flak armor;

§ 1x Veteran (2pt.); Frag grenades; Sniper rifle; Flak armor

 

  I know this is not the army list subforum - so back on topic.   I'm not sure this setup is "perfect" for Pask and Co... but I think it would work out okay

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

There's a lot of options and tricks these days, so there's going to be quite a few counters to any one thing I reckon

That's kind of the key. If you fortify your forward positions, the enemy will flank you. Just ask France what happens when you stack your whole plan into one idea, even if that idea is a good one.

Building a defence line along your land borders is a great idea. Building a defence line along ~50% of your land borders is pointless.

[march10k]

Garath,

 

I wouldn't do the plasma sponsons (they get hot!), and the "net wisdom" for the proper Pask is either punisher or, my choice, vanquisher.  I like the vanquisher option so I can point at an enemy land raider and say "have that removed!"  BS4 twinlinked, S8AP2, armorbane, tank hunters.  So it misses 1/9 of the time, and gets two chances to roll armor penetration, with an average result of 15 each time, and +1 on the damage table!  mathhammer gives the edge to punisher-pask, though, for a stupid volume of fire plus rending.  There is another neat pask, executioner pask, with a S7AP2 blinding pieplate...can't spread out five terminators far enough to avoid getting buttsecksed by that one, and it's only one gets hot roll, instead of three for the standard executioner cannon, but nobody seems excited about that. I do like your MM sponsons on pask....

[Rumour Control]

3 Manticores and its game over for pask and his buddies. Instant death for the bullgryns and 2d6 highest on the tanks.

[march10k]

Naturally...name a unit that doesn't have a "if you know you're facing it, here's the perfect counter" nemesis.  Anyway, welcome to last month, I pointed out that the bullgryns could be cut to save 250 points in post one, and abandoned them entirely about ten minutes later.  So we're talking about a pask squadron plus an ADL and a techpriest, which is a total of 170 points more than you'd pay for three generic tanks, which would also die horribly to massed manticores, right?

 

To put it another way, what doesn't die when you drop three storm eagle rockets on its head?  

[Rumour Control]

Space marines and terminators, they can stand under the storm eagle rocket rain shower all day and not be the slightest bit bothered, put them on the ground floor of ruins and its even worse as i found to my cost a few months ago.

 

Since the days of old, where you setup your army on one side of the board and your opponent sets up on the other and who had the most guns won, nowadays there is a counter for everything, drop pods, teleport homers and so on which makes the game a little more balanced now.

 

Everything has its achilles heel.

[Willy Pete]

Actually, a better example would be the Atlantic Wall, not the Maginot Line.  At no point did the Germans directly assault the Maginot Line, they went around it!

 

But the vaunted Atlantic Wall did cover the coast of France, there was no way around it.  And yet, it lasted less than a day before it was pierced in five places. All that money and resources wasted.  Whoops. :)

[incinerator950]

I've been trying to think of a Chaos marine/Pask combination.  Ironically, it's much harder when you're not spamming cultists and heldrakes, so it requires a bit of thought with how much you're putting in to it, the opposite of a Chaos Demon/CSM Adepticon list. 

[Garath]

Garath,

 

I wouldn't do the plasma sponsons (they get hot!), and the "net wisdom" for the proper Pask is either punisher or, my choice, vanquisher.  I like the vanquisher option so I can point at an enemy land raider and say "have that removed!"  BS4 twinlinked, S8AP2, armorbane, tank hunters.  So it misses 1/9 of the time, and gets two chances to roll armor penetration, with an average result of 15 each time, and +1 on the damage table!  mathhammer gives the edge to punisher-pask, though, for a stupid volume of fire plus rending.  There is another neat pask, executioner pask, with a S7AP2 blinding pieplate...can't spread out five terminators far enough to avoid getting buttsecksed by that one, and it's only one gets hot roll, instead of three for the standard executioner cannon, but nobody seems excited about that. I do like your MM sponsons on pask....

 

 Plasma cannon sponsons (they "don't" get hot- they are hot!)

 

   I'm not sure on the rulling on plasma cannons and re-rolls where you play - but we ruled it here (southeast Europe) that Presicience  gives you re-rolls on get's hot.

 

  My list I wrote here doesn't give Libby a better target for the primaris Divination spell then the Leaman Russ Pask led unit.

 

  So not only are they safe , they will hit stuff.

 

Another contiengency- if we can call it that, is power field generator.  To my knowledge, the 4++ can be taken against any  glancing or penetrating hit. I might be wrong.

 

 Net "wisdom"

 

  Pask will be a piece that everyone and their brother will have a perfect setup for. That is to say, You might have a point there.  There are a few reasons why I didn't go with Punisher.  20 S5 shots with re-rolls are good- but I dislike the 24" range on the main gun. And the AT capability against a major number of vechicles is  less then desirable - at the end of the day S5 is just S5.

 

Rending is great, but the short range makes it risky

 

 Vanquisher was my first choice right off the bat as soon as I saw your post.  And it is a great tank. Thing is, in my meta people seldom take AV 14 vechicles.  And they do take FMC and vechicle spam lists.

 

 I know those are not as strong as they where...so an Exterminator will do.

 

 

  The idea of the squadron was to support the main force with overall good firepower. Second LR does the killing of all types of infantry.

  Pask can down Fliers,FMC,light to med tanks.

 

 

  Looking at him in a bubble - my setup seems less then optimised.  In this list however, I do feel it has a place.

 

  Some playtesting is in order.

 

 The list is short on points...

[march10k]

Actually, a better example would be the Atlantic Wall, not the Maginot Line. At no point did the Germans directly assault the Maginot Line, they went around it!

But the vaunted Atlantic Wall did cover the coast of France, there was no way around it. And yet, it lasted less than a day before it was pierced in five places. All that money and resources wasted. Whoops.

To be fair, Patton's deception in Operation Quicksilver had EVERYTHING to do with that, if A.H. hadn't been irretrievably convinced that Normandy was a feint, the forces necessary to utterly CRUSH the beachhead at Normandy would have been released from reserves without a moment's hesitation. Overlord didn't defeat Festung Europa, Fortitude did!