Legions Undone

[Grey Mage]

So, what do you all feel is the best course of action for those legions not yet released- such as the Blood Angels, and Space Wolves? IE would you put off on building them? Do you think it likely theyll use the same basic legion list so go ahead with basic units and see what happens? Etc.

[Grizwald23]

I'm not sure what your asking exactly. If your asking about playing legions that haven't been covered yet I have heard in the new book you can choose between stubborn or furious assault. I don't have the book in front of me since I'm still waiting for mine to be shipped so I might of got the two rules wrong.

[helterskelter]

wolves come with something like a 6 deny the witch roll army wide, tac squads allowed up to 30 models to represent a pack mentality and 30k frost weapons.

BA have their version of the thirst but only if sanguinius is put down in battle, amit and raldoron as specials. a squad of elite for each those characters, amits being combat buffed for flesh tearing goodness :D

just my thoughts

[AGPO]

I'm personally holding off on my IX legion until the rules come out, aside from units like tactical squads. I want an army that looks right in terms of markings and plays well on the rare occasions I get them on the table top. In the meantime it's the VII for me.

[Balthamal]

I think the wolves will get special rules to reflect the differences between themselves and the other Legions although how they'll be incorporated into the rules is anyone's guess. As for special units/characters I hope Wulfen are included just for the modelling potential. Long fangs should be at a premium to reflect the fact there aren't that many of them. Bjorn is a certainty since he's really the only wolf to get significant exposure so far and I'd bet money on one of the 12 Jarls being the other.

 

Blood Angels a bit different. There should definitely be army wide rules and a RoW to reflect the shock nature of their assaults. Something along the lines of the orbital assault RoW but much more intrinsic to the IX Legion. The thirst should be included but in subtle ways to represent it slowly becoming more of a factor. Units wise, Sanguinary guard? When they already have a presence in 40k? A varient Storm Eagle or aerial transport would be good for them. Characters wise Raldoron and Amit are shoe ins. What could be better than the First Captain reputed to be the greatest warrior in the Legion and the Flesh Tearer

[Greyall]

What I disliked most about Fear to Tread was how little it showed us of the Blood Angels' field organization. I know they have and use all classes of Marines, but I more or less imagine them to 'throw' assault squads at key objectives and enemies, making everyone else's life easier. So the focus should go to said assault squads, either more skillful or able to take different weapons, like all power-sword-equipped.

 

The Dark Angels are the hardest to crack. They're said to be blademasters, but there's also the question of the various wings they had to specialize into due to being the first Legion. For them I can see a knight-esque shield and power-weapon bike/jetbike squad, perhaps champion-centurions to go around and challenge everyone and a Terminator sword and board squad.

[Hfran Morkai]

I'm holding off on building my Wolves.

 

I've got about 30 odd MIV as Grey Hunters (before FW actually announced the Heresy) and a few MkIII as Long Fangs but fortunately they're mostly unpainted and in storage. I just don't want to start building before I learn what the unit compositions and rules are.

 

Really hoping Hunters come with Bolter, Pistol and CCW, given Tac Marines can be upgraded to that I think it'd be silly not to at least have it as an option. Also, Blood Claws kind of need something more going for them than the current 40K ones (whether a price difference to Hunters or something else).

 

There have been many times when I've put together a basket full of cool stuff I want for the Wolves but know if I bought it I'd have to assemble it, and having no idea on the availability of special and special close combat weapons it'd be silly unless I magnitised everything. Plus I imagine the upgrade kits will look snazzy. Should stick some money in a savings account for the glorious day.

[hisdudeness]

I thought the hunter, long fang, etc. Breakdown Didn't come about until after/later in the Heresy?

 

I believe the rules will only hint at the future status of the Legion. So far the deviant traits of a Legion have only been added to an elite unit and hinted at in the Legion wide rules. And those are really toned down. I wouldn't bet on a heavy wolf and blood rage rules for the first release of the Legion.

 

I see the exact same treatment as the other legions, 2-3 specific units, 2-3 special characters, a Legion trait that hints at the future, and a specific RoW. The changes in the Legions will most likely show up in the 3rd set of books.

[Greyall]

Aesthetic-wise, I want to see those SW leather masks that look like snarling demons...those should look...interesting. The Wolves were probably even more tribal back then...

[Marshal Rohr]

For the Blood Angels, you don't need to make a unit for Sanguinary Guard. Instead if they provide options to take Glaive Encarmines, Angelus Bolters, Inferno Pistols, and Death Masks for all Character models, you can turn a Legion Command Squad into Sanguinary Guard. This would leave Forge World free to do two separate units. I'd imagine Blood Angels will get a special Destroyer Squad and a Veteran Assault Squad that can take special weapons. For characters, I can see Azkaellon who would mirror Dante's abilities and allows you to take Legion Command Squads without banners as troops. Raldoron would be the other likely option, but so is Amit. Raldoron would probably be a leader character and Amit would be Seth in 30K. The Rite of War will probably be a stronger version of Angel's Wrath, will two compulsory assault squads, unlocks veteran assault units as troops, and grants bonuses to units coming in via deep strike. The Legiones Astartes rules will be 30K mirrors of the Red Thirst. My money is on all Blood Angels will have +1 WS in close combat, something that boosts the amount of wounds they cause in assault, and benefits when they take casualties.

[Hfran Morkai]

hisdudeness, on 28 Apr 2014 - 11:55, said:

I thought the hunter, long fang, etc. Breakdown Didn't come about until after/later in the Heresy? I believe the rules will only hint at the future status of the Legion. So far the deviant traits of a Legion have only been added to an elite unit and hinted at in the Legion wide rules. And those are really toned down. I wouldn't bet on a heavy wolf and blood rage rules for the first release of the Legion. I see the exact same treatment as the other legions, 2-3 specific units, 2-3 special characters, a Legion trait that hints at the future, and a specific RoW. The changes in the Legions will most likely show up in the 3rd set of books.

Possibly, in Prospero Burns there's a Priest (Rune I think?) who is named Long Fang, as it seems they haven't really been around long enough for "enough" members to be regarded as Long Fangs. It will be interesting to see what the differentiation (if any) is in the rules. I am hoping the rules are substantially different, after all the Wolves never really stepped in line, Priests for one, different array of psychic powers, Scouts being experienced warriors. But so long as we are fairly represented I'll be happy.

[Greyall]

For the Blood Angels, you don't need to make a unit for Sanguinary Guard. Instead if they provide options to take Glaive Encarmines, Angelus Bolters, Inferno Pistols, and Death Masks for all Character models, you can turn a Legion Command Squad into Sanguinary Guard. This would leave Forge World free to do two separate units. I'd imagine Blood Angels will get a special Destroyer Squad and a Veteran Assault Squad that can take special weapons. For characters, I can see Azkaellon who would mirror Dante's abilities and allows you to take Legion Command Squads without banners as troops. Raldoron would be the other likely option, but so is Amit. Raldoron would probably be a leader character and Amit would be Seth in 30K. The Rite of War will probably be a stronger version of Angel's Wrath, will two compulsory assault squads, unlocks veteran assault units as troops, and grants bonuses to units coming in via deep strike. The Legiones Astartes rules will be 30K mirrors of the Red Thirst. My money is on all Blood Angels will have +1 WS in close combat, something that boosts the amount of wounds they cause in assault, and benefits when they take casualties.

 

I'd imagine Amit, having only his knife (which I think is mandatory as his prime melee weapon) and bolter, will be less of a melee monster and more of a killy one, the 'ultimate combat pragmatist' (bar Sevatar).

[Marshal Rohr]

The Space Wolf artwork from Collected Visions uses some of the names from the 'current' conventions. Others are less similar. Grey Hunters are just referred to as hunters, blood claws are Fenris Bloods.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

hisdudeness, on 28 Apr 2014 - 11:55, said:

I thought the hunter, long fang, etc. Breakdown Didn't come about until after/later in the Heresy? I believe the rules will only hint at the future status of the Legion. So far the deviant traits of a Legion have only been added to an elite unit and hinted at in the Legion wide rules. And those are really toned down. I wouldn't bet on a heavy wolf and blood rage rules for the first release of the Legion. I see the exact same treatment as the other legions, 2-3 specific units, 2-3 special characters, a Legion trait that hints at the future, and a specific RoW. The changes in the Legions will most likely show up in the 3rd set of books.

Possibly, in Prospero Burns there's a Priest (Rune I think?) who is named Long Fang, as it seems they haven't really been around long enough for "enough" members to be regarded as Long Fangs. It will be interesting to see what the differentiation (if any) is in the rules. I am hoping the rules are substantially different, after all the Wolves never really stepped in line, Priests for one, different array of psychic powers, Scouts being experienced warriors. But so long as we are fairly represented I'll be happy.

The big thing will be how big a bonus 'Legion Astartes' is allowed to be, as it's 'free', however seeing as the IH get -1S to shooting, it seems FW are OK with major buffs. So that is where we can expect the principal differences. The 40k Claw/Hunter/Fang dynamic does not seem to exist in 30k, and wouldn't make sense anyway. As you say, PB shows us the very few (Longfang himself may be the only one, not 100% sure) Wolves are old enough to be Long Fangs. The only mention I've seen of Blood Claws is in Battle for the Abyss, and people seem to like to pretend that one doesn't exist. Putting Blood Claws in the Legion list would be BS too, as the normal Legion list doesn't have a WS/BS3 neophyte unit, Legion scouts are regular, experienced Marines (which makes so much more sense than using rookies for recon). So why would they give the Wolves one?

 

Also remember, every Legion had its own way of doing things, very few stuck to the default Terran pattern organisation once their Primarchs were found. Most of the Wolves deviation from the norm came later, when the Codex was enforcing all Marines following the Ultramarine way of doing things (which was similar to the old Terran way). If the same basic Legion List (with the unique RoW and Legion Special rules) can represent a World Eater assault Echelon, an Iron Warrior trench garrison and a Raven Guard strike wing, I don't see why the Wolves would require substantially different rules beyond what FW are already doing to make the Legion unique.

[Hfran Morkai]

You know what Leif, I think you might be swaying my opinion (which is one hell of a feat, I'm known for being a stubborn one).

 

I don't know enough about the Wolves in the Heresy, one of the reasons I'm so keen for the book to fall. That fluff I'll devour. Here's hoping they can bring the flavour out in a balanced way (And allow me to build my dream Company).

[Marshal Rohr]

Since Russ was the second Primarch found, there is a possibility that will give the writers leeway to alter the Legion as they see fit. 

 

 

The predicament, I imagine, is that 40K Space Wolf fans may not respond well if FW alters 'too much' of what they identify as the Space Wolves play style. It's all well and good if Dan Abnett makes the Space Wolves into hard-core metal vikings, but it's a whole separate ball game if FW doesn't stay true to the 'soul' of the VI in the rules on the board because the player base is so large. So far FW has stayed true to the Chaos 3.5 Legion rules and the Index Astartes rules for the First Founding Legions, but they have yet to do a Legion that has ever been represented by its own Codex. Only the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have really been stand alone armies, because Codex Ultramarines was a catch-all. In my mind, FW has stayed true to the rules from the 'Glory Days' of special rules for each First Founding, specifically because there is no downside. Without Xenos armies having to be taken into consideration, the designers have more flexibility to do things that would make an ork or elder player's head spin (like -1 Str against Iron Hands, or +1 BS for Imperial Fists, or no morale tests from shooting for Iron Warriors). Because of this, I look back to the 2nd/3rd Edition rules to get an idea of what FW might do.

 

For instance, Dark Angels all previously had Intractable, which was kind of like stubborn. I'd imagine they will get a rule called Intractable which allows them to ignore modifiers for taking casualties and are stubborn in assault. In a similar vein, I think Dark Angel's Terminators will be given Fearless or will be Immune to Fear or whatever that rule is (the only Terminators outside of the Death Guard, to my knowledge, that will have it). The Blood Angels 3rd Edition rules will likely be the building block for their Legion Rules, and the Space Wolves will probably do the same. 

[Cate]

I have a couple of ideas what might happen to the wolves, and no this is purely taken from my imagination

 

1 Special rules Legion Astartes (Space wolves) Furious Charge when entering opponents deployment zone.

   Characters get a Deny the witch on 5+

   Troop Infantry models not in vehicles get Outflank (veterans can assault opponent same turn they arrive.)

 

Special units 

 

Rune priests (some kind of special psykers)

Wolf guards (Similar to today, when it comes to rules and gear)

Wulven marked (Squads of more feral marines, possibly with two attacks and rending, but no shooting)

 

Special Characters 

Bjorn

Wyrdmake

And possibly a special Jarl

 

Just my two kracks.

 

/C

 

I see this a plausible and not over the top, special units for the other have not been that gamebreaking.

 

Thing that are gone from the 40k codex are Thunderwolf cavalry, Lone wolves, Long fangs, Claws and Fenrisian wolf packs, Fenrisian wolfs can be taken as special gear.

[BFeeder]

I'm working on the XIII Legion as one of my (many) projects. So I took the time to sculpt some shoulder pads for them as I may be waiting a while for them to top FW's release schedule. Thankfully, they are the least likely to deviate from the Crusade army list

[Leif Bearclaw]

You know what Leif, I think you might be swaying my opinion (which is one hell of a feat, I'm known for being a stubborn one).

I don't know enough about the Wolves in the Heresy, one of the reasons I'm so keen for the book to fall. That fluff I'll devour. Here's hoping they can bring the flavour out in a balanced way (And allow me to build my dream Company).

You're not the only one pining for Prospero. I was so sad when I read that they'd pushed back the release of Inferno. They just need to hurry up and give me SW upgrade packs and a Contemptor body, then they will have all my monies.

Since Russ was the second Primarch found, there is a possibility that will give the writers leeway to alter the Legion as they see fit.

The predicament, I imagine, is that 40K Space Wolf fans may not respond well if FW alters 'too much' of what they identify as the Space Wolves play style. It's all well and good if Dan Abnett makes the Space Wolves into hard-core metal vikings, but it's a whole separate ball game if FW doesn't stay true to the 'soul' of the VI in the rules on the board because the player base is so large. So far FW has stayed true to the Chaos 3.5 Legion rules and the Index Astartes rules for the First Founding Legions, but they have yet to do a Legion that has ever been represented by its own Codex. Only the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves have really been stand alone armies, because Codex Ultramarines was a catch-all. In my mind, FW has stayed true to the rules from the 'Glory Days' of special rules for each First Founding, specifically because there is no downside. Without Xenos armies having to be taken into consideration, the designers have more flexibility to do things that would make an ork or elder player's head spin (like -1 Str against Iron Hands, or +1 BS for Imperial Fists, or no morale tests from shooting for Iron Warriors). Because of this, I look back to the 2nd/3rd Edition rules to get an idea of what FW might do.

For instance, Dark Angels all previously had Intractable, which was kind of like stubborn. I'd imagine they will get a rule called Intractable which allows them to ignore modifiers for taking casualties and are stubborn in assault. In a similar vein, I think Dark Angel's Terminators will be given Fearless or will be Immune to Fear or whatever that rule is (the only Terminators outside of the Death Guard, to my knowledge, that will have it). The Blood Angels 3rd Edition rules will likely be the building block for their Legion Rules, and the Space Wolves will probably do the same.

So if we're going back to 2nd edition, does that mean +1WS on profile for all Wolves compared with their counterparts in other Legions?

[Marshal Rohr]

It would not surprise me if that was the case, I'd imagine +1 WS, Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, and Preferred Enemy: Legiones Astartes will be the Legiones Astartes(Space Wolves) rule, if not more added in. 

[Hfran Morkai]

So long as we're balanced we'll be fine.

Interested to see if there'll be a return to "for every x models in a pack, one model may take a special close combat weapon". Would love that. Hoping Jump Packs aren't completely excluded with that "Fight as Russ intended" bit of fluff, wouldn't mind paying more.

Oh, and the Thousand Sons have to be awesome too, just so its more satisfying when my Infiltration Company stomps face.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think it is likely Thousand Sons will be getting their own separate army list, or at least more extensive rules pages than we are used to. The Space Wolves could, in theory, be balanced without price alterations, as long as the LA(SW) rules 'turn on' at certain times, instead of being active all the time. For instance, LA(IF) give stubborn when in cover, and +1 BS only to Bolter Weapons. In a similar vein, maybe the LA(SW) rule grants them +1 WS only when they charge. Something like that.

 

As for the Characters, I think Space Wolves will be like the Imperial Fists, meaning they will get two well known characters from the background, instead of one BL character and one FW character. Bjorn is a shoe in, because he is famous in 40K too, and I'd bet on either a Rune Priest OR Bulveye, because Wulfen will most definitely be a special unit and they will want to give players the option to do a Wulfen Army. Hunter Squads may replace tactical squads, and come with Bolters, Bolt Pistols, and CCW standard, with special weapons and CCW options like previously mentioned, but I doubt it'll get bigger than 20 per Squad. 

[Sevatar]

Blood Angels: Assault benefits. 

Azaekellon and Raldoron.

Sanguinary Guard: make these buys much, much better. I'm hoping 2 wound WS 5 monsters.

Assault/Red Thirst unit: killy in close combat. Maybe FNP?

 

Dark Angels: Blademasters. Tactical, well equipped benefits.

Corswain and Luther.

Bodyguard: Deathwing like, very durable and killy.

Swordmasters: like the Templar Brethren.

 

Ultramarines: Logistics, equipment, preferred enemy?

Inceptor bodyguard: those Terminator s from UE.

Veteran squad: eh, can't really think of another. They should have two though.

 

Scars: Bike lords, fast attack, hit and run.

Keshig: elite, terminator bodyguard. Very killy, shown to outclassed the Deathshroud, so should have 2 wounds and WS 5, imo.

Elite bike squad: these should be awesome. Currently Outriders are terrible.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It would not surprise me if that was the case, I'd imagine +1 WS, Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, and Preferred Enemy: Legiones Astartes will be the Legiones Astartes(Space Wolves) rule, if not more added in.

That would make me rather happy. I did wonder about Preferred Enemy, but didn't want to mention it, as it seems the 'Wolves as executioners' thing is a bit of a touchy subject on this forum .

So long as we're balanced we'll be fine.

Interested to see if there'll be a return to "for every x models in a pack, one model may take a special close combat weapon". Would love that. Hoping Jump Packs aren't completely excluded with that "Fight as Russ intended" bit of fluff, wouldn't mind paying more.

Oh, and the Thousand Sons have to be awesome too, just so its more satisfying when my Infiltration Company stomps face.

I doubt jump packs will be excluded, as Betrayal says that even Legions that didn't favour Jump Packs maintained them because they were sometimes necessary, plus the Wolves weren't even mentioned as one of the Legions that disdained their use (DG and IH).

Thousand Sons. I'm expecting Preator level Librarians and some brotherhood of psykers squads. Whether that would be a blanket thing for all squads, only the Legion unique choices, or upgrading squads to belong to different sects (Corvidae gives Divination, Pyrae Pyromancy etc.) I don't know. But I doubt the XV will be hard done by.

[Týr]

The predicament, I imagine, is that 40k Space Wolf fans may not respond well if Fw alter' too much' of what they identify as the Space Wolves play style. 

 

 

 

The people that would think like that play 40k not 30k. FW should not care about what a bunch of people on the internet thinks, about a game system they don't play, and alter their work to suit these fanboys' opinions.

 

Forge World should continue to make awesome and good rules that reflect/respect the universe.