malorn24 Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 i have read/listened to "The Butchers Nails" and I am about at CH 8 of Betrayer and something is bugging the crap out of me.Why in the Halibut would the Emperor put Angron in charge of anything but a endless supply of chain weapons? He couldn't remove the nails and he had to have the forsight to know he would ruin his legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Sure does make one wonder about his secret, hiddn motives, doesn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Because if the Emperor isn't a numpty the Heresy doesn't happen and 40k never exists? You might as well ask why he didn't save Angron's slave rebels, why he didn't help Mortarion bring down the last overlord of Barbarus in some father-son bonding, why he didn't sort Lorgar out properly instead of driving him into the arms of his enemy, why he didn't tell Horus his master plan, why didn't he show Pertuarbo some appreciation, or why he didn't bludgeon Magnus over the head harder with "the warp isn't benign"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 My guess is the same reason most parents don't see the worst in their children. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 because they're too bussy working, and leave the raising of their kids to grandparents and school? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Ragnrok Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Angron was designed to be one of the hammers of the primarch brotherhood. the butcher's nails took that to the extreme. the emperor really had little choice but to accept what his son had become if he want him alive. angron became nothing more than the most blunt instrument of all the primarchs. if something needed to be broken through or destroyed at all costs, call in angron and the world eaters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Perhaps it's quite simple. The Legion was NEVER the Emperor's, the World Eaters were ALWAYS Angrons, right from the very first Legionnaire. The Big E was just holding onto it until Angron was found, whether or not he was fit to lead was irrelevant. The Emperor was probably counting on Horus to he a bigger influence though. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Because the Emperor is a 20+ year old one-dimensional plot device that is only recently (per the HH novels) being given depth. Also, different BL authors have different interpretations of the Emperor. Our all-powerful lord A D-B tends to depict him as a bloodthirsty tyrant who has no idea how to raise his sons. My personal take is that the Emperor was a transcended being. Meaning he ws unable to understand or relate to normal human beings or even the Primarchs (who showed very human whims and desires, be they pride, vanity, wrath, or simply wanting to be acknowledged). By the time he found the Primarchs, the Great Crusade was already in full swing and he could not really devote the time or energy (even if he wanted to) to groom the Primarchs into what he wanted them to be. For the Emperor, the decision was to go to war with the army he had rather than wait to build the army he wished he had. The Emperor trusted Horus to guide and mentor his brothers - he did not ask Horus to change his brothers, but only to apply their particular strengths. Betrayal mentions the Emperor asking Horus to bring Angron and the World Eaters back into the fold (the Legion having been "exiled" to the fringes of the Great Crusade because of their excessive brutality). Sadly, by that point, Horus was already corrupted. My thoughts on Angron and the World Eaters is that they were two tragedies. A broken Primarch leading an equally broken Legion. A line from Betrayer sums it up: that the World Eaters sought kinship with the father who never wanted them by breaking themselves upon the same anvil he was broken upon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 i have read/listened to "The Butchers Nails" and I am about at CH 8 of Betrayer and something is bugging the crap out of me. Why in the Halibut would the Emperor put Angron in charge of anything but a endless supply of chain weapons? He couldn't remove the nails and he had to have the forsight to know he would ruin his legion. You make a huge assumption here, and its the same one for the Night Lords. That the Emperor wanted it any other way. He very very clearly did not, and had every intention of creating, and utilizing the 'monster' legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 The Emperor is clearly a Moran. I mean this guy has supposedly witness 10s of millennia of humankind turn in on itself and almost destroy itself over and over again, finally forcing him to take a direct hand in the species continuing existence. And what does he do? Put masses of firepower and articles of destruction in the hands of a guy a few sandwiches short of a picnic. The story After Deah'ea shows what he was like just after the Emperor beams him up. Either the Emperor saw him like this or didn't either way he acted like a moron. Either for not realising or for thinking he could control Angron long term. The old snippets of info have been expanded and so far there is absolutely nothing that puts the Emperor in a good light. It's going to take some masterful work to put that right (if they want to). IMO of course Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 The Heresy authors are trapped in a framework that was built long ago. Now they are trying to write compelling stories about characters that we the audiance can connect with, when the finale has already been written. The Emperor is. That is all that is known for certain about him. Everything else is just conjecture on the part of we the audiance. As for legions like the XII and VIII. You have plans to conquer a galaxy with plenty of monsters running wild. Why not has some of your own? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Sometimes a father's sentiment will blind him to the faults of his son. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 I think you guys are grossly overestimating the 'Father' side of things, until the final Horus show down. The Emperor certainly must have known after Angron ripped a custode in half, that he had a problem. He must have known after the analysis of the Nails, that he had a problem. When the WE butchered worlds in His name, that he had a problem. He looked the other way, not out of fatherly sentiments, but out of necessity. He needed the World Eaters, he needed the Night Lords as there where those to be nothing but butchered, and those that needed to be taught a lesson in terror. The Emperor was a monster, as much as any of the worst of the Primarchs. At least the Primarchs (Angron/Haunter) had an excuse, the Emperor is just shown to be a psychopathic tyrant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 And yet Angron wasn't the one that heard music in the screaming dirge of the warp, or the brother that decided to usurp his father's empire after being entrusted a position of unrivalled power. Finish betrayer. Angron was a monster, but as they say he was our monster, and you would be glad for his ravening hordes to have humanity's back in the 41st Millenium. Betrayal puts it this way; the imperium needed monsters to survive in a galaxy of monsters, and Fulgrim's fine folk weren't that, nor were Kurze's charlatans of fear. Angron had a dream of freedom, even with his nails that is the only thing he held true to his heart. Angron died on Nuceria with his brothers, what remained was a shade exchanged by one tyrant to another that did what he did simply because he accepted it was what he was good at. First, he fought in the arenas of Nuceria, then he fought in the arena that is the Crusade. And when his brother came along with a viable (he was a monster, not a madman) chance to get rid of humanity's greatest tyrant, he siezed it, only to be betrayed and sold to another master thanks to his brother. Freedom; that is the only thing he fought for, not galactic power or to please the laughing madman gods. Angron wasn't the Archtraitor, nor the First Traitor amongst his brothers. Remember that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 And yet Angron wasn't the one that heard music in the screaming dirge of the warp, or the brother that decided to usurp his father's empire after being entrusted a position of unrivalled power. Finish betrayer. Angron was a monster, but as they say he was our monster, and you would be glad for his ravening hordes to have humanity's back in the 41st Millenium. Betrayal puts it this way; the imperium needed monsters to survive in a galaxy of monsters, and Fulgrim's fine folk weren't that, nor were Kurze's charlatans of fear. Angron had a dream of freedom, even with his nails that is the only thing he held true to his heart. Angron died on Nuceria with his brothers, what remained was a shade exchanged by one tyrant to another that did what he did simply because he accepted it was what he was good at. First, he fought in the arenas of Nuceria, then he fought in the arena that is the Crusade. And when his brother came along with a viable (he was a monster, not a madman) chance to get rid of humanity's greatest tyrant, he siezed it, only to be betrayed and sold to another master thanks to his brother. Freedom; that is the only thing he fought for, not galactic power or to please the laughing madman gods. Angron wasn't the Archtraitor, nor the First Traitor amongst his brothers. Remember that. And that, is the greatest tragedy of the Master of the XIIth Legion. A man who valued freedom above all else found himself in service to one master after another. From the High-Riders of Nuceria to the Emperor of Mankind to Horus the Warmaster and finally to Khorne the Blood God. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piano_Sam Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 All this kind of makes one wonder...what did the two lost Primarchs do that was so terrible that the Emperor would sanction them, but look the other way at Angron and Kurze... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Maybe they just weren't willing to commit wholesale massacres in the name of the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Given that the Emperor commended Perturabo for killing a tenth of his Legion (or at least, told the IV Primarch's critics to shut up and let the boy run his Legion as he saw fit).... Proponents of the Emperor's benevolence have a pretty steep hill to climb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 Given that the Emperor commended Perturabo for killing a tenth of his Legion (or at least, told the IV Primarch's critics to shut up and let the boy run his Legion as he saw fit).... Proponents of the Emperor's benevolence have a pretty steep hill to climb. I would have it more like climbing Mt. Everest. In a perpetual blizzard. While being shot at by said benevolence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 I can't remember from reading Betrayer, but did the Emperor know about the long term effects of the nails on Angron? The book talks about it's increasing effect upon Angron's rages and his focus/planning capability. One line talks about Angron spending less time in planning sessions, so there is the idea -at the beginning- of Angron being involved in a meaningful multi-dimensional role in his campaigns. Not quite the blunt instrument he later became. Then there is the World Eater Legion itself. The "After De'sha" short story puts me in mind of the legion desperate for a sire, learning and copying despite any clear dangers or warnings. Feels more like the Legion choosing to become the ravening tide they later became. Also how did the Emperor get close enough to Angron to know him? The nails caused pain in the subject when near to psykers - how would the most powerful psyker interact with the Primarch avec original archeotech Butcher's Nails? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3667645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted April 29, 2014 Share Posted April 29, 2014 From what I recall about Betrayer, the Emperor knew of the long-term degenerative effects of the Nails. Remember that the Mechanicus representative stationed aboard the Conqueror was there during the examinations and the Emperor forbade him from speaking about the Nail's long-term effects. To put it bluntly, the Emperor knew that Angron would most likely not live to see the end of the Great Crusade (the Nails were eroding his higher brain functions and keeping him from sleeping. The cumulative effects of the exhaustion would eventually kill him). Angron was never a Primarch intended to have a role in the Imperium following the successful conclusion of the Great Crusade. The World Eaters asked for the Nails because they were desperate to feel some kind of kinship with their father. As Khârn put it, it didn't work. As for the examination of Angron's Nails, the Emperor may or may not have been at the examination itself. For all we know (and what the evidence points to), he simply had a crack team from the Mechanicus examine them and report back to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3668152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted April 30, 2014 Author Share Posted April 30, 2014 I got a few more chapters in after starting this thread and I have changed my views after reading the exchange between Russ and Angron. Angron hit the "nail" on the head when he told Russ that he did the same thing that Russ does. And then when he talked about how in the crusades the Legions show up demand that a world throw all of thier cultural beliefs out the window and swear loyalty to an Emperor that they have never met, then give up millions of thier children for a crusade they never asked for and called it "enlightment". I swear when I was listening to that rant by Angron I literally said "Yeah!" in my car. Luckliy no one was around to hear me. I get that Angron never wanted to lead a Legion he wanted to die with his slave brothers but still it would make more since for the Big E to not waste gene seed to give toa primarch who was just going to ruin thier minds and run them into the meat grinder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3669455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 I think that putting Angron in charge of the legion was a lesser evil than not. In After Desh'ea we see how desperate the XII was to find it's gene sire. They hoped for a Horus or a Guilliman but they got Angron. He was a disappointment but he was still their disappointment. If all your friends had a dad and you didn't have a dad and then you were reunited with your dad, you'd probably want to be with him, even if he wasn't the cool dad you'd always imagined. The War Hounds were there at Desh'ea. If the Emperor killed Angron or arranged an "accident" then the morale of the War Hounds would be crushed. To make the best of a bad situation the Emperor chose to give the War Hounds their primarch and then sent them to do the dirty work. If Horus hadn't led a full scale rebellion or Lorgar hadn't turned Angron into a daemon prince then ultimately when the day came that Angron was too far gone he could have been "sanctioned" like the II and XI legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3669482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Actually, the Emperor could have done better. There are examples where when a Primarch had friends, comrades and allies, those same compatriots were raised with the Primarch. Angron is the only example who had compatriots that were not raised with him. And the reason? Because the Emperor let them die. Saving Angron was literally as easy saving his fellow Gladiators and then crushing the High Riders. Take his rebellion and turn it into a revolution that led to Compliance. But I'm willing to bet that even all the way back then, Angron saw the Emperor as a tyrant and said "No." and then the Emperor let them die as punishment. "Either serve me willingly, or be crushed into my service. But you will serve." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3669515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 But the emperor helped mortarion when he said no. As in, morty said no, didn't make it up to kill the overlord, but the emperor killed the overlord anyway. Why do it for one and not the other? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290294-angron/#findComment-3669518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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