How would you have handled the traitor primarchs?

[Cornelias]

The one thing i find very strange about the Heresy is the Emperor's choice of legions to desend on Istvaan V as support, surely he must have been suspect of the Alpha Legion atleast?

[Stonerhino]

Most of the Traiters turn because they are lead by other down the path by others.  All we really need to look at are Lorgar, Angron and Curze.

 

Lorgar: Take him by my side and show him the true horrors of the warp and that only by my guiding hand can humanity be saved.

 

Curze:  Honestly I think pairing him up with Leman Russ for a long period of time would have helped him.  Not in the "Oh now I see how wrong I am".  But that the galaxy it a horrid place and sometimes people need to be shown that there are worse things (Like the Night Haunter).  But sometimes there are other methods too.  It is also important that it be Russ because he is a walking conterdiction with extremes on both ends.  I feel it is his heavy handed nature that will get through to Curze in a way no other Primarch could. 

 

Angron: Really is just a lost cause.  The nails have destroyed his mind to the point that he cannot be fixed.  When he is finally located the only mercy left to the Emperor is to let him be as he is until he finds a way to fix him or has to finally put him down.  In the long view Angron and the problems he causes for the World Eaters is a black stain that will eventually be purged from imperial records.  Imagine a World Eaters Legion 100 years after Angron's fix/death,.  When every nailed World Eater is fixed/purged and all that matters is their tally of victories during the great crusade. 

 

Like a child born with malformity that gives them only a few years to live.  You don't just kill them.  You try and let them live as normal a life as possible until the end comes.  Hoping there is a breakthrough that fixes them.

[Plague Angel]

Take the time freed up to make a bee line to Lorgar. Spend a year with him, tutoring his legion and coaxing them back into angry militant atheist mode.

 

Here's the big issue with Lorgar, I don't think that's possible. Some people are just religious by nature, he's clearly one of them. That Monarchia drove him into the arms of the Chaos Gods, of all things, shows how desperate he is for something, anything, to worship. It doesn't matter how palatable or desirable it is, only that it's there and he can be assured of it. Argel Tal says something along those lines in Betrayer, where he tells Khârn the Word Bearers don't want to worship the Ruinous Powers, but when faced with the revelation of them, how could they do anything else?

 

If someone has that faith and need to believe in them, you can't just beat it out of them, especially when "gods don't exist" is a lie in the context of the setting. There would always be a part of Lorgar that would be attracted to faith where he found it, whether he heard about Eldar legends, or eventually happened upon evidence of the C'tan....

 

But by the same token, the Emperor couldn't just take Lorgar aside and tell him, "okay, okay, gods do exist, just our secret, but they're bad." No matter how much the no-no was emphasized to Lorgar, that'd have the same effect as just plopping him down in a paradise and saying, "okay, so, you can have everything you want and do whatever you want here, just don't eat the fruit from this tree, or else!" The moment you leave them alone, they're going to go after the forbidden fruit, and then it's all descent of angels and flaming swords, Monarchia all over again anyways.

 

The only solution I can think of would be to redirect Lorgar's faith onto something that doesn't undercut the Crusade. Maybe try to get him to worship Humanity as a general principle or something. Or get him to worship battle itself, like 40k Astartes do. Have him work together with Guilliman to write the Codex and instill the Legions with the sense of holiness that chapters would have later, since the Ultramarines and co. see themselves and the Emperor as sacred without actually worshiping anybody. But even that isn't guaranteed; Lorgar's tragedy is that he's undone by his own nature, and how his nature responds to the setting he happens to be in.

[Kol Saresk]

Pairing Curze with Russ would have the opposite effect. Curze has lived around the heavy hand all his existence. The phrase "bad people make bad people" comes to mind. He needs to be shown restraint and control, since those are his biggest problems. He needs people to hear what is going in his head and instead of ratting him out or attacking him for it, try to explain them an how they could be interpreted differently or even changed. Magnus and Guilliman would actually be good influences for him.

[Marshal Rohr]

Angron would've been the simplest to save, simply because all it would've taken was for the Emperor to bring the War Hounds down to the surface and wipe out the High Rider army. After that Angron would've been a little bit easier to control. Maybe. 

[Noctus Cornix]

I would have handled it by using the exact same method the Emperor used:  not a God damn thing.

[SteelPaladin]

I'm not so sure that Angron would have liked help defeating the high riders. His rebellion lived and died by the slaves themselves. An outside force "saving" his army might have humiliated him.

[Stonerhino]

Pairing Curze with Russ would have the opposite effect. Curze has lived around the heavy hand all his existence. The phrase "bad people make bad people" comes to mind. He needs to be shown restraint and control, since those are his biggest problems. He needs people to hear what is going in his head and instead of ratting him out or attacking him for it, try to explain them an how they could be interpreted differently or even changed. Magnus and Guilliman would actually be good influences for him.

See the problem with that line is shown in UE.  Curze views Guilliman as a toad and hypocrite.  It is the way he seems to view his "Controlled" brothers.  He needs someone who is willing to get their own hands dirty to make humanity better. 

 

He wants his brother to be lowered if they kill him.  As he says about the Lion and Guiliman.  Pair him with a Primarch who sees the world in the same black and white as Curze, who is also willing to get his hands dirty and willing to kill a brother primarch.  That way you have a pairing of very different but like minded brothers. 

 

I don't really see Curze being super friends with Russ.  But I can see him seeing eye to eye with Russ.  Enough to eventually tell Russ about his visions.  Knowing it result in a fist fight at the very least.  But then have it out and on the table without all the pomp that Dorn tryed.

[Plague Angel]

I'm not so sure that Angron would have liked help defeating the high riders. His rebellion lived and died by the slaves themselves. An outside force "saving" his army might have humiliated him.

 

He mentions it as a grievance.

 

I think he should at least have been given the choice.

[Marshal Rohr]

After giving it some more thought, which author's versions of the characters are we trying to save? Graham McNeill's Fulgrim, Perturabo, Magnus, and Mortarion? Nothing you could've done. Abnett's or Kyme's Curze? That guy never would've made it onto the Emperor's ship in the first place. 

 

 

There are as many Lorgar's, Curze's, Horus' as their are Black Library authors and none of them are the same. A D-B's Lorgar might've been able to be reasoned with, but Anthony Reynold's was born with an evil mustache. Abnett's Russ might've been more circumspect behind the scenes, but McNeill's is a loud, bawdy bombast. Kyme's Ferrus is filled with self-doubt, but A D-B's is a stern older brother. 

 

It's no different than the armies we model. My Fists are different from Shaw's whose are different from the Damned Artificer's. Midian's Death Guard is not the same as Lorenzen's. Heathens and Pyromancer have very different takes on the Iron Warriors, and both are insanely cool. Flint and Heinrich have very different Night Lords. Etc, ad infinitum. 

[GhostMalone]

Honestly sit down with all of them and don't lie in reality only kurze and angron were close to the deep end.

 

Horus fulgrim lorgar and Magnus loved there father and felt betrayed

 

Pert just needed recognition for his legions achievements

 

And Alpharius omegon were never for going rogue but did it due to circumstance

[captain Angel]

I feel that all one would have to save Haunter is put him with the Angel. Both can see the future, the angel would understand the nature of the situation. Problem solved.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Horus: Tell him not to consort with the warp so that he won't get possessed.

 

Perturabo: Make him Co-Warmaster with Horus. This would let him know that I appreciate and value his efforts and intelligence and hopefully prevent him from becoming embittered.

 

Lorgar: Lied and said that I am a god but I don't want people to know and kill off Kor Phaeron and his converts.

 

Curze: discipline his home world with a harsh Imperial Governor while he is away crusading and have him crusade alongside Magnus who could help him deal with his psychic visions.

 

Alpharius: keep better tabs on him and his legion

 

Angron: come down and fight with him and his slaves and turn the battle with my awesome powers or call off the Nucreian army and then recruit Angron's army. For the Nails, I would devote a ton of time and effort to removing them and if I can't I'd send his legion against an unbeatable foe and create a 3rd missing legion.

 

Magnus: help him place wards on the Thousand Sons Geneseed to prevent Tzeentch's interference with it and tell him about the dangers of the warp so he dosent make a deal with Tzeentch.

 

Mortarion: I honestly don't believe he would have turned if Horus had not so he's good.

 

Fulgrim: Really nothing I can do besides tell him not to pick up the shiny sword.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 

 

 

 

Fulgrim? Several pimp slaps and a warning to pay more attention to Sanguinius. Humility is never a bad thing.

Because slapping Lorgar down and telling him to pay more attention to Roboute worked out so well for everyone involved...

Yeah, I would have helped Fulgrim get into a war he couldnt win. No outside interference. Just the III Legion and a meat grinder. He would have to see the folly that is pride with his own eyes.

 

No amount of pointing out a narcissisists failings ever works. They have to fall into the water and break their own reflection all by themselves.

The war with the Laer was supposed to be an impossible affair and according to what little is recorded, only the III Legion participated. And look how well that mirror cracked.

 

Its not that the cracking needs to happen, its how it needs to happen.

 

The devil is in the details. I'm not entirely sure what that involves however.

[incinerator950]

After giving it some more thought, which author's versions of the characters are we trying to save? Graham McNeill's Fulgrim, Perturabo, Magnus, and Mortarion? Nothing you could've done. Abnett's or Kyme's Curze? That guy never would've made it onto the Emperor's ship in the first place.

 

 

There are as many Lorgar's, Curze's, Horus' as their are Black Library authors and none of them are the same. A D-B's Lorgar might've been able to be reasoned with, but Anthony Reynold's was born with an evil mustache. Abnett's Russ might've been more circumspect behind the scenes, but McNeill's is a loud, bawdy bombast. Kyme's Ferrus is filled with self-doubt, but A D-B's is a stern older brother.

 

It's no different than the armies we model. My Fists are different from Shaw's whose are different from the Damned Artificer's. Midian's Death Guard is not the same as Lorenzen's. Heathens and Pyromancer have very different takes on the Iron Warriors, and both are insanely cool. Flint and Heinrich have very different Night Lords. Etc, ad infinitum.

My overall problem with BL in general.

 

Reinforce the Iron Warriors and rotate them from garrison duty. Honoring them beyond using their work as a foundation of strategy. Even if Perturabo is cold to the core in the most calculating sense, relieving the Iron Warriors of the brunt of the Crusade and thanking them is an immense weight taken down.

 

Angron: Forcibly aid his slave brethren. Dishonoring him with a helping hand will be less traumatic than letting them all die. I can't really get into much detail, I didn't read for them, and as such all I know specifically is that the Butchers Nails are going to kill him eventually.

 

The root of the Rebellion was in the Word Bearers more than Horus, even if he was the driving force behind much of the destruction. As I'm not familiar with all the details, or specifically anything the WB did in the Crusade, or how involved with the Warp Magnus was, how corrupt Nocturne was, I can't be useful.

 

However, I can tell that the Emperor valued his sons more than his Thunder Warriors. It's hard to come to the conclusion when you haven't read any of the novels and only briefly went over the HH codexes.

 

My guess is the driving hammer to take less interest in the Crusade for his Web-way/Empire business was too taxing, even for him. Still, it was his army, it's his children (in a sense, even if they're designed only to win the Crusade, their core weakness). I'm not sure if he intended to let his armies be disposed of like the TWs or let them fade into obscurity when he didn't need them, but if he'd shown more... care, even Erebus' manipulations, Angron's and Curze's Legion excesses, and Magnus' warp love, the Heresy could've been resolved or even lessened.

[Molokai]

 

 

Take the time freed up to make a bee line to Lorgar. Spend a year with him, tutoring his legion and coaxing them back into angry militant atheist mode.

Here's the big issue with Lorgar, I don't think that's possible. Some people are just religious by nature, he's clearly one of them. That Monarchia drove him into the arms of the Chaos Gods, of all things, shows how desperate he is for something, anything, to worship. It doesn't matter how palatable or desirable it is, only that it's there and he can be assured of it. Argel Tal says something along those lines in Betrayer, where he tells Khârn the Word Bearers don't want to worship the Ruinous Powers, but when faced with the revelation of them, how could they do anything else?

 

If someone has that faith and need to believe in them, you can't just beat it out of them, especially when "gods don't exist" is a lie in the context of the setting. There would always be a part of Lorgar that would be attracted to faith where he found it, whether he heard about Eldar legends, or eventually happened upon evidence of the C'tan....

 

But by the same token, the Emperor couldn't just take Lorgar aside and tell him, "okay, okay, gods do exist, just our secret, but they're bad." No matter how much the no-no was emphasized to Lorgar, that'd have the same effect as just plopping him down in a paradise and saying, "okay, so, you can have everything you want and do whatever you want here, just don't eat the fruit from this tree, or else!" The moment you leave them alone, they're going to go after the forbidden fruit, and then it's all descent of angels and flaming swords, Monarchia all over again anyways.

 

The only solution I can think of would be to redirect Lorgar's faith onto something that doesn't undercut the Crusade. Maybe try to get him to worship Humanity as a general principle or something. Or get him to worship battle itself, like 40k Astartes do. Have him work together with Guilliman to write the Codex and instill the Legions with the sense of holiness that chapters would have later, since the Ultramarines and co. see themselves and the Emperor as sacred without actually worshiping anybody. But even that isn't guaranteed; Lorgar's tragedy is that he's undone by his own nature, and how his nature responds to the setting he happens to be in.

If lorgar had been left to worship the emperor things could have turned out a lot differently. Really... I mean what was the emp thinking? Had to go and interfere to police his "grand scheme" of things. The emperor truly is psychopathic when it comes to his vision.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Pairing Curze with Russ would have the opposite effect. Curze has lived around the heavy hand all his existence. The phrase "bad people make bad people" comes to mind. He needs to be shown restraint and control, since those are his biggest problems. He needs people to hear what is going in his head and instead of ratting him out or attacking him for it, try to explain them an how they could be interpreted differently or even changed. Magnus and Guilliman would actually be good influences for him.

See the problem with that line is shown in UE. Curze views Guilliman as a toad and hypocrite. It is the way he seems to view his "Controlled" brothers. He needs someone who is willing to get their own hands dirty to make humanity better.

 

He wants his brother to be lowered if they kill him. As he says about the Lion and Guiliman. Pair him with a Primarch who sees the world in the same black and white as Curze, who is also willing to get his hands dirty and willing to kill a brother primarch. That way you have a pairing of very different but like minded brothers.

 

I don't really see Curze being super friends with Russ. But I can see him seeing eye to eye with Russ. Enough to eventually tell Russ about his visions. Knowing it result in a fist fight at the very least. But then have it out and on the table without all the pomp that Dorn tryed.

But the Curze in UE is a Curze who has only had good relations with one brither, and that brother was Fulgrim. Who in his eyes betrayed him to Dorn, who in turn tried to arrest Curze for having visions. And what did he do in response to the heavy hand? Attack Dorn, kill some Fists and then blow up Nostramo. Afterwards he went on a rampage so far from the Imperium's borders the IA articles tell us the Imperium had to send recon fleets just to find where they had been.

 

The heavy hand approach doesn't work. His sanity was too fragile for it. And putting him with a superstitious brother like Russ has the potential for making it happen sooner. But if we're going with the theoretical of starting at square run, Guilliman(who runs an empire) has the potential to teach leaner means of controlling the populace without persecuting a young Curze and Magnus and Sanguinius can help him with his visions. When Corax is found, the Ravenlord can relate with having had grown up in a sea of corruption. Get the good influences in early, to nip the corruption in the butt before it can spread.

 

EDIT: IMO at any rate.

[Plague Angel]

 

 

 

Take the time freed up to make a bee line to Lorgar. Spend a year with him, tutoring his legion and coaxing them back into angry militant atheist mode.

Here's the big issue with Lorgar, I don't think that's possible. Some people are just religious by nature, he's clearly one of them. That Monarchia drove him into the arms of the Chaos Gods, of all things, shows how desperate he is for something, anything, to worship. It doesn't matter how palatable or desirable it is, only that it's there and he can be assured of it. Argel Tal says something along those lines in Betrayer, where he tells Khârn the Word Bearers don't want to worship the Ruinous Powers, but when faced with the revelation of them, how could they do anything else?

 

If someone has that faith and need to believe in them, you can't just beat it out of them, especially when "gods don't exist" is a lie in the context of the setting. There would always be a part of Lorgar that would be attracted to faith where he found it, whether he heard about Eldar legends, or eventually happened upon evidence of the C'tan....

 

But by the same token, the Emperor couldn't just take Lorgar aside and tell him, "okay, okay, gods do exist, just our secret, but they're bad." No matter how much the no-no was emphasized to Lorgar, that'd have the same effect as just plopping him down in a paradise and saying, "okay, so, you can have everything you want and do whatever you want here, just don't eat the fruit from this tree, or else!" The moment you leave them alone, they're going to go after the forbidden fruit, and then it's all descent of angels and flaming swords, Monarchia all over again anyways.

 

The only solution I can think of would be to redirect Lorgar's faith onto something that doesn't undercut the Crusade. Maybe try to get him to worship Humanity as a general principle or something. Or get him to worship battle itself, like 40k Astartes do. Have him work together with Guilliman to write the Codex and instill the Legions with the sense of holiness that chapters would have later, since the Ultramarines and co. see themselves and the Emperor as sacred without actually worshiping anybody. But even that isn't guaranteed; Lorgar's tragedy is that he's undone by his own nature, and how his nature responds to the setting he happens to be in.

If lorgar had been left to worship the emperor things could have turned out a lot differently. Really... I mean what was the emp thinking? Had to go and interfere to police his "grand scheme" of things. The emperor truly is psychopathic when it comes to his vision.

 

I wouldn't agree in this case. The whole point of the Crusade is to bring worlds into compliance with the Imperium. At this point, the Imperial Truth is atheistic. Lorgar running around and spreading his faith on complaint worlds is bringing them out of compliance. He means well, but he's actively going around and undoing all the work the other Legions are doing on the Crusade. Even Angron and Curze weren't guilty of that.

[Wade Garrett]

Angron brought worlds into compliance with the Imperium?

 

Is "compliance" another word for "nothing left on it but corpses, fire, and the occasional burning corpse" now?

[Plague Angel]

The Legions have two jobs: bring worlds into compliance, or kill everyone on them.

 

Lorgar's the only one who was taking compliant worlds and turning them into non-compliant ones.

[Kol Saresk]

The Legions have two jobs: bring worlds into compliance, or kill everyone on them.

 

Lorgar's the only one who was taking compliant worlds and turning them into non-compliant ones.

Yes and no. As had been pointed in other threads, the God-Emperor was there before Lorgar(Betrayal) and had mixed receptions across the field. For example, a Titan moderati was a worshipper. At the end of Galaxy in Flames we find his superior had known all along but had done nothing because loyal and competent.

 

Oll Person had his own chapel on Calth because it was a place he could worship in peace, and he didn't even worship the Emperor.

 

So while Lorgar's worlds(and others) were not compliant with the Imperial Truth, they were compliant with Imperial rule. The "problem" with Lorgar was that he took too much time rebuilding and reeducating those worlds.

[Aqui]

As well as many of the previous answers, explain why he was returning to Terra after Ullanor and why it was of significant importance.

[Lord Xedillian]

With the ability of Chaos being able to subtly influence emotions of all beings except the emperor, I personally believe that chaos may have just been forced to put a little more Oomph into their attempts at conversion. That said...

 

Lorgar: " Listen son, I am not a god, however, in the realm of psychic-ness that I've never told you about, there are four entities that cal themselves gods. However they really are beings with nothing but hatred for themselves and the universe, they also have incredible strength that rivals my own, so don't trust them"

 

Horus: "I understand this is a burden for you, but I'm not abandoning you, I have to go back home in order to build a super cool invention that will allow humans to travel around the galaxy without my help. During this time I won't be able to talk to you but you have your 17 brothers who look up to you and will offer you any help and advice you need

 

Magnus: "I know you have access to a really cool toy, but the truth is there are many things in there that even I don't understand, with that in mind, please come to me before doing anything else with this toy :)"

 

Mortarion: no big speech I can think for this one, but the emperor could have shown Mort how the world worked in normal life, hopefully allowing him to regain respect for normal people"

 

Angron: "nice fight you have here, how about some father-son time"

 

Curze: "You have a remarkable gift, and have succeeded in pacifying your world single-handedly, however, while dissidents must be punished, you should also be aware of what you are doing to the life the rules were made to protect"

 

Fulgrim: Tricky one as Fulgrim was 100% loyal to the emperor without the blade and still consciously loyal without it (before he went insane), maybe just add a side note saying "You desire perfection, and there is nothing more perfect than humanity, with that in mind, when you come across any super-cool alien artefacts just destroy them"

 

Alpharius: I am of the opinion that the emperor didn't really spend time with Alpharius

 

Perturabo: "I know you don't like this job but you are the best one at it, and as a reward for your good behaviour, I'm going to get you to swap places with Dorn every now and then, now let's go get ice-cream"

[randian]

Lorgar: Take him by my side and show him the true horrors of the warp and that only by my guiding hand can humanity be saved.

That won't work. Ingethel showed him the horrors of the warp and he didn't care. He believed that the warp would save humanity, not destroy it.

[Plague Angel]

 

Lorgar: Take him by my side and show him the true horrors of the warp and that only by my guiding hand can humanity be saved.

That won't work. Ingethel showed him the horrors of the warp and he didn't care. He believed that the warp would save humanity, not destroy it.

 

Even if you impress on him that the Warp is bad, that's not the issue for Lorgar.

 

The goodness or badness of the Chaos Gods is irrelevant, what's important is that they are true and gods, and as such in Lorgar's mind are worthy of worship regardless of any other consideration.