How would you have handled the traitor primarchs?

[mc warhammer]

i got the impression that lorgar cared about good vs bad and cruel vs kind initially. it was more that he couldn't fathom any way to withstand the truth of the universe. chaos.

 

"can't beat 'em, join 'em" the new word bearers catchphrase

[Stonerhino]

 

Lorgar: Take him by my side and show him the true horrors of the warp and that only by my guiding hand can humanity be saved.

That won't work. Ingethel showed him the horrors of the warp and he didn't care. He believed that the warp would save humanity, not destroy it.

That is because the warp showed him what they wanted him to see.  That Chaos was the future and only by joining with Chaos can humans be saved.  Ala the gal vorbak instead of random like the flesh change.  Lorgar's entire time in the Eye of Terror was a manipulation to turn him.  Not an attempt to show him the truth.

 

@Kol:  I still feel the problem will always lie with Curze relating to the other Primarch.  Sure Magnus or Sanguinius could help with his visions but would he really listen???  Would Curze even tell them about it???  Curze and Russ have a lot in common.  Not enough to really be friends but more then enough for the two of them to relate to each other.  Argue a lot probably, maybe even throw a few punches.  In the end Russ really is uniquely setup to show Curze that loyal excessive brutality is the way to go. 

 

Had Curze not been so obsessed with death his visions would have probably been closer to Sanguinius'.  However he was already to deeply set in that mindframe when the Emperor came for him.  His only hope is for him to see a kindred spirit and an acceptable alternative to what he already knows.  And I do mean an "Acceptable alternative" to Curze, not us the readers.  We all know that given the choice we would all live in Ultramar.  We all also know that Curze would not think the same way.

[randian]

 

 

Lorgar: Take him by my side and show him the true horrors of the warp and that only by my guiding hand can humanity be saved.

That won't work. Ingethel showed him the horrors of the warp and he didn't care. He believed that the warp would save humanity, not destroy it.

That is because the warp showed him what they wanted him to see.  That Chaos was the future and only by joining with Chaos can humans be saved.  Ala the gal vorbak instead of random like the flesh change.  Lorgar's entire time in the Eye of Terror was a manipulation to turn him.  Not an attempt to show him the truth.

They showed him enough truth that Lorgar should have said no. They were quite clear that what humans needed to be saved from was Chaos itself. I don't know about you, but if somebody told me that I should join them because if I didn't my family would die at their own hand I would not be favorably disposed towards them.

[Grey Mage]

If you were the Emp.

 

Of course you also benefit from 20/20 hind sight. 

 

Your goal is to keep their loyalty. I'm hoping for detailed answers. I believe some answers are more obvious than others  

 

Lorgar

Horus

Magnus

Perturabo

Alpharius 

Mortarion

Fulgrim

Curze 

Angron

Lorgar- as part of the 'Im not a god' speach, show him the starchild and eternals, and ask him if its close enough? Keep him with me for an extended period, become more of a father than a godling.

 

Horus- Dont put him in charge. By his own words, sanguinius takes lead of the crusade instead. Communicate frequently.

 

Magnus- Take him with me to Terra, and continue teaching him there, as I work on the webway.

 

Angron- Ye gads, angron is the easiest, simplest, to save- instead of teleporting him away from the battle and letting everyone hes ever known or cared about die while hes forced to sit on the sidelines teleport in 500 of his TDA clad legionaires, with myself at the forefront and a bodygaurd of custodes, and turn the tide in my sons favor. Have his eternal loyalty after that.

[Wade Garrett]

They showed him enough truth that Lorgar should have said no. They were quite clear that what humans needed to be saved from was Chaos itself. I don't know about you, but if somebody told me that I should join them because if I didn't my family would die at their own hand I would not be favorably disposed towards them.

What did Lorgar see?

 

That everyone dies. That everyone-EVERYONE!-goes to Hell and burns forever.

 

And yet, it need not be so. With the power of the gods, humans can be reborn as numinous beings....princes and princesses of the Warp. Rulers, not victims.

 

And what are the alternatives? The Emperor? He who denies the very existence of souls and the afterlife, even as every one who lays down their life in his Great Crusade falls screaming into the Sea of Souls?

 

No. There is the Eightfold Path, or there is only eternal suffering.

 

"If I must kill billions so that millions will be spared, so be it. Sacrifice...is never easy, Argel Tal. If it is, it not truly sacrifice."

[randian]

 

They showed him enough truth that Lorgar should have said no. They were quite clear that what humans needed to be saved from was Chaos itself. I don't know about you, but if somebody told me that I should join them because if I didn't my family would die at their own hand I would not be favorably disposed towards them.

What did Lorgar see?

 

That everyone dies. That everyone-EVERYONE!-goes to Hell and burns forever.

 

And yet, it need not be so. With the power of the gods, humans can be reborn as numinous beings....princes and princesses of the Warp. Rulers, not victims.

 

And what are the alternatives? The Emperor? He who denies the very existence of souls and the afterlife, even as every one who lays down their life in his Great Crusade falls screaming into the Sea of Souls?

 

No. There is the Eightfold Path, or there is only eternal suffering.

 

"If I must kill billions so that millions will be spared, so be it. Sacrifice...is never easy, Argel Tal. If it is, it not truly sacrifice."

Never mind the suffering created by the Eightfold Path itself. "I'm going to make you suffer (or kill you) to save you from suffering" smacks of "we had to destroy the village to save it". As to sacrifice, his words are hollow. Sacrifice is easy if you're making others pay the price. In the end, he's not sparing anybody, he's killing because Chaos likes killing.

[Greyall]

I'm with Randian here, Lorgar's base urge is for there to be something greater in the Universe. He tried his father and got a charred city. Now the Ruinous Four accept him but he's already losing focus, and seems to be simply on the path to doing their bidding even as he masks his intentions with salvation (of Humanity, of Angron, etc.). The thing is, Chaos is very appealing before you take a sip: there's freedom, there's personal glory, knowledge, strength and guile to help yourself or those you love...but it very quickly reveals itself as a bloody mess, it's raw emotion and will stop at nothing to attain it. It's absolutely contrary to the complexity of a human being because it's at once fragmented and a turmoiled, disordered mesh of said fragments.

 

Wasn't there a revelation that the Word Bearers had some inherent tendency towards obedience, in The First Heretic' I'm guessing it comes from their papa, and that' incredibly dangerous (as demonstrated), as the Emperor and Gods are about the only beings greater than a Primarch...

[Wade Garrett]

Ingethel the Ascended does tell Argel Tal that the XVII gene seed gives them a tendency towards mindless zealotry, yes.

 

But then, wasn't the criticism of Word Bearers based on the fact that they accepted the revelations of the daemon as objective truths?

 

Although to be fair, the gene seed 'flaw' (+Oh no, my posthuman killing machines are TOO loyal and obedient! What have I done?+) is also mentioned in Index Astartes: Word Bearers and I believe the Forge World books as well.

[Greyall]

Problem is, they seem to be blindly obedient, they're not 'gene-coded' to obey the Emperor.

 

Angron or Curze might be individually harder to turn, but Lorgar is perhaps the most complicated, especially because of the repercussion of his actions. Magnus too, since their issue deals with the relation between humans and daemons.

 

I'm thinking Magnus should've always been besides the Emperor, developing his psychic usage with the true master of such arts.

[AGPO]

For Lorgar I think trying to convince him that Gods don't exist is a bad move. Instead tell him something along these lines - "Yes son of course I am a God, but there are also much darker Gods that live in the Warp who are almost as powerful as me, and I am working on something that will keep mankind safe from them forever. The rest of humanity cannot know about this until it is complete, because they will turn to these Dark Gods in their lust for power, and through them those Gods will seek to destroy my work. The safest option is for them not to know that such a route exists, and for us to destroy all servants and relics of these Dark Gods wherever we find them. On that subject, could you send Kor Phaeron and Erebus in to see me for just a moment..."

 

Likewise much trouble could be spared by giving some of the other Primarchs a pep talk about the Warp:

 

Horus: "I know you are feeling abandoned, but there is a truly powerful enemy living in the Warp which is a threat to everything we have achieved through the Crusade. They are never to be trusted, they can see every miniscule weakness in your soul and will use it to corrupt you. They are like a poison and once they have an opening you will not know you are lost until it is too late. I am working on something which will potect humanity from them and possibly destroy them utterly, but it will take all my strength and I need you to protect mankind until I can complete it. Stay strong and know that you have my complete trust, but don't be afraid to delegate. If the bureaucrats get to be too much, put them in their place for me but do it with tact. Same with your brothers."

 

Magnus: "This is the reality of what we're messing with and why I can't trust any but the very strongest psykers. I've got this big project I'm working on which I'd love your help with if you've got the time. Soul binding and good old fashioned genetic engineering might help us find a temporary cure for your legion, but helping me to finish this project could also hold the key to their salvation. You and your sons can stay by my side and I will teach you to master your skills whilst we finish these two quests together."

 

Mortarion: "There are great powers in the galaxy and your adopted father was merely one of their lesser minions. Until I can destroy them utterly our regime and humanity must be sufficiently strong and disciplined to hold them at bay."

 

Fulgrim: "Chaos artifacts are the most dangerous items in the galaxy and the antithesis of human perfection. They must be destroyed immediately, preferably from a distance. Here's how to do it."

 

Alpharius: "Anything, absolutely anything you hear about Chaos which doesn't come directly from me is almost certainly a lie and should be treated as such. Chaos works by sowing division so if you encounter anyone trying to mess with our disfunctional but loveable family by claiming to see the future kill them with extreme prejudice. By the way I need you to keep an eye on Lorgar, Konrad and Angron for me..."

 

Of the rest, Perturabo, Angron and Curze need different treatment as they are messed up by regular means.

 

Angron: Aside from the obvious rescue mission on his homeworld, options include a) sticking him in status as a geneseed machine until you can find a cure for the Nails b) letting him loose purely on xenos until he burns out, c) if you know with your 20/20 hindsight that no cure is possible, arrange to turn up too late to save him from the slave revolt and leave a legion master in command of the War Hounds, or else keep them as your 'personal' legion loyal to no other in case an inter-Legion conflict should still arise.

 

Kurze: Speak to him about the nature of prophecy, how it is not bound to happen and bend all your efforts into disproving one of his visions so that he sees it as a tool. Also point out the contradiction of recruiting the very sociopaths he is trying to defend people from and surround him instead with true paragons from the get go. Years of therapy and a change in wider recruitment policy for his legion before their encounter should help with this.

 

Perturabo: Rotate those legions on garrison duty, single him out for praise more and ask his advice as well as Dorn's on the building of the Imperial Palace. Give him a crusade of his own which offers the chance for real glory, maybe even taking him with you to Ullanor rather than Horus.

 

Oh and since we're talking dealing with arch traitors, we should mention the Dark Mechanicum too. I'd use my Omnissiah abilities to take control of Kelbor-Hal through his mechanical enhancements. Through him I would take a more active role in Martian affairs. By gradually weakening the other factions within the Mechanicum I enable the growth of Adept Zeth's faction, enabling the advancement of science once more. As the Cult of the Omnissiah will be weakened by this move, I workto establish friendly relations rather than a genocidal crusade against the Tecnocracy, gaining access to fully working STC machines ad establishing another technological power as a rival to Mars should they get too big for their cyber boots.

[Augustus]

One. Big. Stick.

[BassWave]

Yeah, I don't think Lorgar could be fixed. There would be three missing legions if it were up to me. On the other hand, the Emperor could have accepted being viewed as a god and quickly gain immense power. It seems contradictory to only have Martians believe you are a god. That really isn't unifying humanity when they can't even agree on what is leading them.

 

I would educate all the primarchs on the warp to some extent. That would have solved a lot of problems.

 

I would also say why I was going back to Terra so no one gets abandonment issues.

[Karthak]

 

They showed him enough truth that Lorgar should have said no. They were quite clear that what humans needed to be saved from was Chaos itself. I don't know about you, but if somebody told me that I should join them because if I didn't my family would die at their own hand I would not be favorably disposed towards them.

What did Lorgar see?

 

That everyone dies. That everyone-EVERYONE!-goes to Hell and burns forever.

 

And yet, it need not be so. With the power of the gods, humans can be reborn as numinous beings....princes and princesses of the Warp. Rulers, not victims.

 

And what are the alternatives? The Emperor? He who denies the very existence of souls and the afterlife, even as every one who lays down their life in his Great Crusade falls screaming into the Sea of Souls?

 

No. There is the Eightfold Path, or there is only eternal suffering.

 

"If I must kill billions so that millions will be spared, so be it. Sacrifice...is never easy, Argel Tal. If it is, it not truly sacrifice."

Not everyone. The Craftworld Eldar found another way. And if I recall correctly, their souls weren't in any danger in the warp before the Fall. The Necrontyr also found another way. Also, the warp wasn't always horrific. When the Old Ones ruled it was calm. Etc, etc. Lorgar made his decision based on incomplete information. It's like a trial where only the defense (chaos) is allowed to speak. The prosecution never had a chance to show why Ingethel might be full of s@#t.

 

Though Tartugai Yesugei puts it better than I could. From Scars:

 

‘How long you been corrupted?’ the witch asked. Kal found that his lips could move again. He stared defiantly back at the White Scars legionary. ‘Since we knew the truth,’ he replied. The witch looked at him, bewildered. ‘Truth? What truth drive you to this?’ ‘The only one.’ ‘One truth.’ The White Scar shook his head. ‘How foolish.’

[Kol Saresk]

Well, here's the prosecution was saying the defendant didn't even exist. As far as Lorgar is concerned, this is an open and shut murder case where the defendant was able to prove that he was video taped across town at the exact time the murder happened. Public opinion just went into the defendant's court.

 

And you know what the best(worst) part is? Chaos did what any good con man does: tell a lie by telling the truth. The Emperor did make a deal with the devil. The Emperor is trying to ascend any and all who only obey his will. The Emperor is crushing the galaxy to heel. And the Emperor is lying about the existence of gods and daemons.

 

From there, all they have to do is make it seem like they're the lesser evil by wanting to form symbiosis with Humanity, which isn't exactly a lie. If Humanity becomes one with the warp then they will have an eternal food supply. But they don't need to tell Lorgar that. They just need to tell him the good the drug does, that will grant him power. Not that he has to keep taking it to keep that power, or that the withdrawal symptoms are excruciating, or that it will change you are or all the other side effects.

[Scribe]

Whoa whoa whoa.

 

All these posts saying Lorgar was lied to. I dont think thats the case at all. The truth was worse than the lie. The truth was that there is a hell, there is, and you go there when you die, regardless of any intention and you either accept it, and perhaps are 'spared' becoming a Daemon or Prince, or whatever, or you dont, and are consumed.

 

Whats the alternative? 

[BassWave]

Whats the alternative?

Trapping your soul in a device like the eldar, necrons, and to a primitive extent, the mechanicus.

[mc warhammer]

the obedience flaw in their geneseed skipped erebus and kor thingumy.

[Kol Saresk]

the obedience flaw in their geneseed skipped erebus and kor thingumy.

Assuming that it is real. After all, it was a daemon who told them and we know that all of the Word Bearers sent to Calth, while loyal to the Traitors, were not loyal to Lorgar's vision.

[mc warhammer]

yep, that was my point.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Euthanize Angron as unsalvageable, disband World Eaters.

 

Indulge Lorgar's silly worship. Don't spank him and destroy his favorite city and embarrass him.

 

 

With those two dealt with, the rest of it pretty much falls apart. If nobody turns Horus, your only other unsalvageable traitor is Curze, who can be dealt with individually if/when he crosses the line. Without a rebellion, no way for the Cabal to trick Alpharius. Without Horus being manipulated by the Word Bearers, Perturabo just grumbles in silence. Magnus has no reason to warn the Emprah. Maybe Fulgrim stil strays, but he'll have nobody on his side either. Mortarion still doesn't really have much of a reason to fall that makes sense.

[carpediem]

Beyond what's been mentioned above I might want to have a chat with Dorn and Guilliman about this thing called tact, and why they might want to use it some times. 

[Plague Angel]

Erebus and Kor Phaeron are still an issue.

[Hyaenidae]

Euthanize Angron as unsalvageable, disband World Eaters.

 

Indulge Lorgar's silly worship. Don't spank him and destroy his favorite city and embarrass him.

 

 

With those two dealt with, the rest of it pretty much falls apart. If nobody turns Horus, your only other unsalvageable traitor is Curze, who can be dealt with individually if/when he crosses the line. Without a rebellion, no way for the Cabal to trick Alpharius. Without Horus being manipulated by the Word Bearers, Perturabo just grumbles in silence. Magnus has no reason to warn the Emprah. Maybe Fulgrim stil strays, but he'll have nobody on his side either. Mortarion still doesn't really have much of a reason to fall that makes sense.

 

This, minus disbanding the War Hounds. They were a noble, good legion until Angron ruined them.

 

Personally, I would have removed the Nails from Angrons head, then told his Legion, "Whoops, tried my best. Sorry bout that."

[Yogi]

Being that I'm the Emperor and my motivations and decisions are strange, brutal and often random..

 

I roll a D6

 

On a 1-3 I summon all the future traitor primarchs to my current location. Hear their grievances and have a discussion until a resolution is found for all their problems. If they cannot be appeased they die. If they fail to heed summons they die.

 

On a 4-6 I summon all the future traitor primarchs to a grand arena. They must arrive alone. I have them fight each other 1 on 1 to the death. I kill the victor unless it Horus in which case I freeze him in carbonite/put him in stasis  because I'm a big softie and decorate my throne room with him. 

 

Any Primarch who dies gets their legion absorbed into the Space Wolves, where they will be carefully watched as they are ground down in the coming wars.

 

These are all terrible ideas, but it just proves I'm the emperor.  

[fox2013]

If i was the emperor, i would have shown each of the primarchs that i actually cared about them and their feelings. I would put konrad with sanguinus and magnus. I would tell logar that i am a "god of order" and spin a tale that paints the ruinous powers as terrible devils (which they are) and i would listen and deal with each of their grivenances to their brothers and to me. I'd definitely start with the whole "lion and luther" thing.(don't need my sons being stupid) I would have magnus and sanguinus help me with webway. Finally i'd sit in my golden throne, open a cold one and laugh AT the "dark gods" as I've lit their plans in flames.