FunkyMonkey Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I think we're making it seem all too easy because we're in a third person semi-omniscient point of view. The Emperor is too powerful and godlike to comprehend the individual needs and failings of the primarchs. The Emperor is probably thinking, "Why can't they shut up and see how obviously right I am." He doesn't need things like faith, respect, recognition, etc. because those are the concerns of mortal entities and are both below and foreign to him. If we were the Emperor, it's probably likely that we'd see things the way he sees things, and the mistakes he made might not be so obvious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 The tragedy of perfection then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 How to avert the Horus Heresy if I were the Emperor with the gift of hindsight... (1) Rebuke Lorgar not for worshipping me as a god but for the slow progress the XVII Legion was making during the Great Crusade. (2) Toss Erebus and Kor Phaeron out of an airlock and order the Primarchs to purge their Legions of any and all Warrior Lodges. (3) Have regular holo-Skype sessions with my special little boy Horus to ease his abandonment issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Lorgar : Dont destroy monarchia arrange for Phaeron to die in an ''accident'' Horus : Dont make him Warmaster Magnus : Don''t send Russ to bring him in but send Sanguinus. Perturabo : Assign him the task of designing the architecture of the planets of the imperium Alpharius : Dont know enough about their relationship to comment Mortarion : lost cause he's gonna rebel sooner or later. Fulgrim : Nothing the emperor could have done to prevent it. Curze : Have Magnus or the emperor himself help him with his visions but almost certainly already a lost cause. Angron : only two logical options 1 send the warhounds to fight beside him 2 Kill him if he refuses to join. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 The Emperor is too powerful and godlike to comprehend the individual needs and failings of the primarchs. The Emperor is probably thinking, "Why can't they shut up and see how obviously right I am." He doesn't need things like faith, respect, recognition, etc. because those are the concerns of mortal entities and are both below and foreign to him. I'm sorry, but Big E has had millenia to try and comprehend how the minds of the puny ants he intends to rule work. If after thirty thousand years of living among us as a scientist, philosopher, and warlord he hasn't got at least a rough understanding of how we function then he's a pathetic figure unworthy of running a burger joint, let alone a galactic empire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Ooh ooh ooh! I got a new idea! If I was the Emperor, I wouldn't be fool enough to make the deal with the Devils, which would prevent the Primarchs from being scattered! Its foolproof! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Save Horus. The Heresy will fail after that. He is central to the Traitors actually being halfway organised, and, with him on your side, you keep the Iron Warriors, Sons of Horus, Thousand Sons and the Death Guard. The only lost Legions for definite are the Word Bearers and, probably, the Night Lords. World Eaters may rampage at a later stage and who knows what the Alpha's will do. But, essentially, save Horus and you end the Heresy. Save Horus and your Heresy is just Lorgar turning traitor and a couple of crazy Legions that have no leader and no co-ordination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Saving Horus has no bearing on the Thousand Sons. That Legion has had "Property of Tzeencht" branded on their buttocks ever since they were united with Magnus, with the whims of the Changer of Ways the only thing keeping them all from devolving into Chaos Spawn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Whats the alternative? Trapping your soul in a device like the eldar, necrons, and to a primitive extent, the mechanicus. Militant anti-warp-ist here, but Wade kinda knocked a chink in my resolve. The mechanicus? What 'primitive method' do you refer to? The consciousness-transfer technology mentioned in Manus' Keys of Hel and the traitor-mechanicum priest's mind-jumping tech? Even if we give the benefit of the doubt and that is awareness being transferred and not simply neurological patterns, it can't be considered immortality, or rather deliverance, on the scale that the warp offers. A mind psychomorph hopping between bodies is no different to a trooper hopping in and out of tanks; one day the process will be obstructed and true death delivered, where 'eternal' damnation awaits. Even then, the price paid for such technology can't be said to be less than the toll the warp takes, can it? What exactly are the established 'damnations' of the warp that outweigh the boons it offers? The eldar never embraced it, they merely grew complacent alongside it until it erupted around then like a river breaking a dam. What are the downsides had Lorgar had his way; would there really b a moment where he realises it's not what he wanted? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 The Keys of Hel is just a device that animates mostly cyborg bodies modified to respond to the signal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 @kais klip, I was referring to the way the mechanicus would augment their bodies until all that's left is maybe a brain in a jar. And your explanation sums up why I said it was primitive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kais Klip Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Ah right, well my point was that none of those alternatives even compare to the boons offered by the warp, even with it's many costs (short of spawnhood). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Am I the only one who thinks the Emperor didn't help Angron was because he recognized that the Highriders were a stable society that could be absorbed easily into the Imperium, while supporting Angron's revolt would have left him with a total power vacuum. He really should have let them kill him and after breaking the news to the War Hounds, left them as they were. Also, Kor Phaeron needs to die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3682970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted May 11, 2014 Author Share Posted May 11, 2014 Am I the only one who thinks the Emperor didn't help Angron was because he recognized that the Highriders were a stable society that could be absorbed easily into the Imperium, while supporting Angron's revolt would have left him with a total power vacuum. He really should have let them kill him and after breaking the news to the War Hounds, left them as they were. He could've teleported Angron away and helped Angron's comrades (send down a Custodes contingent) ...or he could've just helped Angron. What he did was probably the best way to make Angron hate him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Ah right, well my point was that none of those alternatives even compare to the boons offered by the warp, even with it's many costs (short of spawnhood). There is one advantage in the things I mentioned. You know exactly what you are getting. With the warp, you never know what "boons" you'll get. You might even be cursed because the gods thought it would be funny. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 The chance at eternal bliss as an immortal daemon, or the certainty of eternal torment. Yep. Seems pretty cut and dry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Angel Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Am I the only one who thinks the Emperor didn't help Angron was because he recognized that the Highriders were a stable society that could be absorbed easily into the Imperium, while supporting Angron's revolt would have left him with a total power vacuum. He really should have let them kill him and after breaking the news to the War Hounds, left them as they were. Also, Kor Phaeron needs to die. Which is more valuable resource: primarch who don't hate you for allowing his comrades to die or just one planet? Compliance could be achieved one way or another, while not helping Angron will have dire consequences. As for Kor Phaeron not only he needs to die. I think Lorgar also should be included in that list, it is hard to keep atheistic Imperial Truth while one of primarchs oppose it and won't be persuaded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 As for Kor Phaeron not only he needs to die. I think Lorgar also should be included in that list, it is hard to keep atheistic Imperial Truth while one of primarchs oppose it and won't be persuaded. Are you going to put Russ, Magnus, and the Khan on the chopping block as well? Because all three of them and their Legions seem to have missed the boat on the whole "Rationality and science!" thing. For that matter, Guilliman has been far too tolerant of the Catherics in his dominions, with their temples meeting openly on his capital worlds... Or, radical idea here, since this particular piece of dogma is going to require the deaths of a about a third of the Primarchs and most of the Tech Priests of Mars if we REALLY get serious about it, perhaps its the Imperial Truth that needs to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Angel Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 As for Kor Phaeron not only he needs to die. I think Lorgar also should be included in that list, it is hard to keep atheistic Imperial Truth while one of primarchs oppose it and won't be persuaded. Are you going to put Russ, Magnus, and the Khan on the chopping block as well? Because all three of them and their Legions seem to have missed the boat on the whole "Rationality and science!" thing. For that matter, Guilliman has been far too tolerant of the Catherics in his dominions, with their temples meeting openly on his capital worlds... Or, radical idea here, since this particular piece of dogma is going to require the deaths of a about a third of the Primarchs and most of the Tech Priests of Mars if we REALLY get serious about it, perhaps its the Imperial Truth that needs to go. Perhaps I should say it more clearly. Russ, Magnus and Khan were not as religious as Lorgar, so no chopping block for them. But if Russ or any other primarch decided that worshipping Emperor as a God is good idea then they should be killed. As for Magnus he was lost since his deal with Tzeentch. Erasing Catherics temples from Ultramar may be necesary but it could wait. Lastly it is not Imperial Truth that needs to go, rather it should be enforced more strictly. Little dose of rationalism would not hurt the Mars Priesthood. Killing Lorgar could avert the Heresy, erasing Catheric worship, well it could matter in some way I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 The chance at eternal bliss as an immortal daemon, or the certainty of eternal torment. Yep. Seems pretty cut and dry. Works great, as long as you can get over your revulsion over what Chaos does and is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 As for Kor Phaeron not only he needs to die. I think Lorgar also should be included in that list, it is hard to keep atheistic Imperial Truth while one of primarchs oppose it and won't be persuaded. Are you going to put Russ, Magnus, and the Khan on the chopping block as well? Because all three of them and their Legions seem to have missed the boat on the whole "Rationality and science!" thing. For that matter, Guilliman has been far too tolerant of the Catherics in his dominions, with their temples meeting openly on his capital worlds... Or, radical idea here, since this particular piece of dogma is going to require the deaths of a about a third of the Primarchs and most of the Tech Priests of Mars if we REALLY get serious about it, perhaps its the Imperial Truth that needs to go. Perhaps I should say it more clearly. Russ, Magnus and Khan were not as religious as Lorgar, so no chopping block for them. But if Russ or any other primarch decided that worshipping Emperor as a God is good idea then they should be killed. As for Magnus he was lost since his deal with Tzeentch. Erasing Catherics temples from Ultramar may be necesary but it could wait. Lastly it is not Imperial Truth that needs to go, rather it should be enforced more strictly. Little dose of rationalism would not hurt the Mars Priesthood. Killing Lorgar could avert the Heresy, erasing Catheric worship, well it could matter in some way I think. All three may not have been as religious as Lorgar, but all three were just as divergent from the "atheistic and highly learned" Imperial Truth. Russ is the superstitious general who does not understand the forces he toys with beyond the legends of his people, but knows enough not to just go all Invader Zim with it. However, he is still willing to use it against those he thinks shouldn't. Magnus has a greater understanding, and a greater ignorance. He fully understands the warp is power and that the power of the warp is dangerous. However, he is either ignorant or simply refuses to acknowledge that there is a sentience within the warp that exceeds his own and that it is not his play toy, but rather he is its. The Khan is actually the most knowledgeable of all the Primarchs in most probability. He doesn't have the savage hypocrisy of Russ nor the willful ignorance of Magnus. He understands that the warp is not to be trifled with but he also understands that relying on superstition to win the day is just as dangerous. That was why he supported the Librarius Program. To teach the Astartes psykers to control their abilities rather than the other way around, but also to educate them on the terrors of the warp and why it isn't something you just go willy-nilly with. And not a single one of these four Primarchs were compliant with the Imperial Truth, nor did they obey the Edict of Nikea. Also, I think you misunderstand something. Cathericism is the "modern" 30K version of Catholicism. It is not the fledgeling Imperial Cult. So Lorgar's life or death would have absolutely no bearing on it. The chance at eternal bliss as an immortal daemon, or the certainty of eternal torment. Yep. Seems pretty cut and dry. Works great, as long as you can get over your revulsion over what Chaos does and is.Either way it goes, you're screwed. So really, your choices are fight the tide and drown, or try to swim with the tide and see how far you get. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Being that I'm the Emperor and my motivations and decisions are strange, brutal and often random.. I roll a D6 On a 1-3 I summon all the future traitor primarchs to my current location. Hear their grievances and have a discussion until a resolution is found for all their problems. If they cannot be appeased they die. If they fail to heed summons they die. On a 4-6 I summon all the future traitor primarchs to a grand arena. They must arrive alone. I have them fight each other 1 on 1 to the death. I kill the victor unless it Horus in which case I freeze him in carbonite/put him in stasis because I'm a big softie and decorate my throne room with him. Any Primarch who dies gets their legion absorbed into the Space Wolves, where they will be carefully watched as they are ground down in the coming wars. These are all terrible ideas, but it just proves I'm the emperor. Attached to the Space Wolves?! They never cease yapping about how they are *thee* executioners and better than primarchs and so on. A fate worse then death my friend. No thank you. Time for some good old seppuku. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Honestly the heresy played out because the emperor couldn't see the intermediate future his sight was blocked and he could only see the outcome of a future he wanted to avoid. His sight failed and he was trying to balance humility with cruelty fraternity with animosity In his position we all would have failed we are dealing with complex beings on an intellectual scale greater then we will ever know. Justice has not and will not be done for the heresy as it's the entire silky way galaxy we are dealing with here Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The Emperor is too powerful and godlike to comprehend the individual needs and failings of the primarchs. The Emperor is probably thinking, "Why can't they shut up and see how obviously right I am." He doesn't need things like faith, respect, recognition, etc. because those are the concerns of mortal entities and are both below and foreign to him. I'm sorry, but Big E has had millenia to try and comprehend how the minds of the puny ants he intends to rule work. If after thirty thousand years of living among us as a scientist, philosopher, and warlord he hasn't got at least a rough understanding of how we function then he's a pathetic figure unworthy of running a burger joint, let alone a galactic empire. you both have a point. funky is describing dr manhattan syndrome (watchmen) whereby just being god-like removes one from having proper empathy with others. i've never seen a convincing god-like figure written in a way that suggests they truly "get us". even the judeo/christian/islamic god seemed more the "just shut up and put up" with my demands kind of guy. from the text, it's obvious that the emp did however try to take a father figure role on, which he seems unsuited for. as anyone who had studied leadership has probably seen- there's a difference between managers and leaders and the types of people suited to both. it's almost as if the emp should have employed someone as a step father /mentor/manager figure for the Primarchs while he himself remained a lofty and somewhat removed icon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Being that I'm the Emperor and my motivations and decisions are strange, brutal and often random.. I roll a D6 On a 1-3 I summon all the future traitor primarchs to my current location. Hear their grievances and have a discussion until a resolution is found for all their problems. If they cannot be appeased they die. If they fail to heed summons they die. On a 4-6 I summon all the future traitor primarchs to a grand arena. They must arrive alone. I have them fight each other 1 on 1 to the death. I kill the victor unless it Horus in which case I freeze him in carbonite/put him in stasis because I'm a big softie and decorate my throne room with him. Any Primarch who dies gets their legion absorbed into the Space Wolves, where they will be carefully watched as they are ground down in the coming wars. These are all terrible ideas, but it just proves I'm the emperor. Attached to the Space Wolves?! They never cease yapping about how they are *thee* executioners and better than primarchs and so on. A fate worse then death my friend. No thank you. Time for some good old seppuku. The funny part is where Yogi says that he will ground the Wolves down to nothing and simply use the numbers to make them last as long as possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290302-how-would-you-have-handled-the-traitor-primarchs/page/4/#findComment-3683808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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