How would you have handled the traitor primarchs?

[Red Angel]

 

 

 

 

 

As for Kor Phaeron not only he needs to die. I think Lorgar also should be included in that list, it is hard to keep atheistic Imperial Truth while one of primarchs oppose it and won't be persuaded.

Are you going to put Russ, Magnus, and the Khan on the chopping block as well? Because all three of them and their Legions seem to have missed the boat on the whole "Rationality and science!" thing.

 

For that matter, Guilliman has been far too tolerant of the Catherics in his dominions, with their temples meeting openly on his capital worlds...

 

Or, radical idea here, since this particular piece of dogma is going to require the deaths of a about a third of the Primarchs and most of the Tech Priests of Mars if we REALLY get serious about it, perhaps its the Imperial Truth that needs to go.

Perhaps I should say it more clearly. Russ, Magnus and Khan were not as religious as Lorgar, so no chopping block for them. But if Russ or any other primarch decided that worshipping Emperor as a God is good idea then they should be killed. As for Magnus he was lost since his deal with Tzeentch.

 

Erasing Catherics temples from Ultramar may be necesary but it could wait.

 

Lastly it is not Imperial Truth that needs to go, rather it should be enforced more strictly. Little dose of rationalism would not hurt the Mars Priesthood. Killing Lorgar could avert the Heresy, erasing Catheric worship, well it could matter in some way I think.

All three may not have been as religious as Lorgar, but all three were just as divergent from the "atheistic and highly learned" Imperial Truth.

 

Russ is the superstitious general who does not understand the forces he toys with beyond the legends of his people, but knows enough not to just go all Invader Zim with it. However, he is still willing to use it against those he thinks shouldn't.

 

Magnus has a greater understanding, and a greater ignorance. He fully understands the warp is power and that the power of the warp is dangerous. However, he is either ignorant or simply refuses to acknowledge that there is a sentience within the warp that exceeds his own and that it is not his play toy, but rather he is its.

 

The Khan is actually the most knowledgeable of all the Primarchs in most probability. He doesn't have the savage hypocrisy of Russ nor the willful ignorance of Magnus. He understands that the warp is not to be trifled with but he also understands that relying on superstition to win the day is just as dangerous. That was why he supported the Librarius Program. To teach the Astartes psykers to control their abilities rather than the other way around, but also to educate them on the terrors of the warp and why it isn't something you just go willy-nilly with.

 

And not a single one of these four Primarchs were compliant with the Imperial Truth, nor did they obey the Edict of Nikea.

 

Also, I think you misunderstand something. Cathericism is the "modern" 30K version of Catholicism. It is not the fledgeling Imperial Cult. So Lorgar's life or death would have absolutely no bearing on it.

 

 

 

Spirituality or superstitions may not sit well with atheism yet they aren't as much contradiction as outright worship. Also I think Russ know full well that power of his psykers don't come from Fenris, he was just hypocrite. And we should not forget that Russ or Khan weren't slow in conquest. All in all he could be tolerated, for a time at least. 

 

Magnus was doomed I would say, not only because Tzeentch but also his own arrogance. 

 

Khan were not involved in worship. His knowledge could be dangerous but it is not violation of Imperial Truth on Lorgar scale. Sure he know that Emperor lied but he don't acted on it. So same as Russ, he could live for a time at least. 

 

Disregarding Edict of Nikaea is not an issue for me.

 

Lastly I know that Catherics don't have ties with Lorgar it is just poor phrasing on my part. Lorgar's death would have no bearing on it, but erasing it could matter in some small way.

[Daddywarcrimes]

 

Am I the only one who thinks the Emperor didn't help Angron was because he recognized that the Highriders were a stable society that could be absorbed easily into the Imperium, while supporting Angron's revolt would have left him with a total power vacuum. He really should have let them kill him and after breaking the news to the War Hounds, left them as they were.

 

Also, Kor Phaeron needs to die.

Which is more valuable resource: primarch who don't hate you for allowing his comrades to die or just one planet? Compliance could be achieved one way or another, while not helping Angron will have dire consequences.

 

As for Kor Phaeron not only he needs to die. I think Lorgar also should be included in that list, it is hard to keep atheistic Imperial Truth while one of primarchs oppose it and won't be persuaded.

 

Angron was already broken to the point of uselessness by the Nails, so saving him at the cost of the Highriders would have been an extremely poor decision.  He might not have harbored the same hatred in his heart, but he'd still have seen the Emperor as just another slaver tyrant, still been fundamentally worthless as a strategic commander, and still have led the War Hounds on their descent into madness.  Unless Big E removed the Nails and fixed his brain, he was never going to be worth saving.

[Red Angel]

Angron was already broken to the point of uselessness by the Nails, so saving him at the cost of the Highriders would have been an extremely poor decision.  He might not have harbored the same hatred in his heart, but he'd still have seen the Emperor as just another slaver tyrant, still been fundamentally worthless as a strategic commander, and still have led the War Hounds on their descent into madness.  Unless Big E removed the Nails and fixed his brain, he was never going to be worth saving.

Angron was still usefull if one knew how to handle him. When excessive brutality was needed he was the answer. And if Emperor helped him save his comrades he might not see him as a tyrant. Compared to primarch even as broken as Angron value of one planet was insignificant.

[Wade Garrett]

And what exactly is the correct way to handle Angron? Because even Horus couldn't do it.

 

Galaxy In Flames:

"We will kill all the loyalists in our Legions with an orbital bombardment, suffering no losses to our own...wait a minute. Where'd Angron go? He's WHERE? Doing WHAT? AAAAAAAAAAANGGGRRRRROOOOOON!"

 

Lorgar couldn't do it.

 

Betrayer:

"Armatura is the first world you've killed that I truly wanted dead, brother. Don't pretend that you've been the obedient hound wearing my leash."

 

The Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Iron Hands or even the Wolves are all better choices if you need the hammer brought down.

[Red Angel]

And what exactly is the correct way to handle Angron? Because even Horus couldn't do it.

 

Galaxy In Flames:

"We will kill all the loyalists in our Legions with an orbital bombardment, suffering no losses to our own...wait a minute. Where'd Angron go? He's WHERE? Doing WHAT? AAAAAAAAAAANGGGRRRRROOOOOON!"

 

Lorgar couldn't do it.

 

"Armatura is the first world you've killed that I truly wanted dead, brother. Don't pretend that you've been the obedient hound wearing my leash."

 

The Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Iron Hands or even the Wolves are all better choices if you need the hammer brought down.

Angron because of his murderlust is predictable, as Erebus said in Galaxy in Flames. He should be unleashed when extermination is necessary, and when one want to avoid losses in other Legions. However I agree that other Legions were generally better options, yet I still think that Angron was more valuable than one planet. After all Big E should be clever enough to find use for him. 

[Daddywarcrimes]

Before Angron the War Hounds were a useful and viable Astartes Legion.  After Angron, they're a mindless, arbitrary weapon that can't effectively fight alongside any other allied force.  He turned a flexible strike force of some of the finest soldiers in human history into something that is nothing more than a preposterously resource intensive alternative to virus bombing.

[Red Angel]

Before Angron the War Hounds were a useful and viable Astartes Legion.  After Angron, they're a mindless, arbitrary weapon that can't effectively fight alongside any other allied force.  He turned a flexible strike force of some of the finest soldiers in human history into something that is nothing more than a preposterously resource intensive alternative to virus bombing.

In a galaxy where glory is important some enemies will require to be butchered as example or to avenge slight. Butchered not virus bombed. Warhammer is setting where slight are washed with blood in glorious meele not destroyed from above. And if Angron think Emperor as comrade rather than tyrant the Butcher Nails might not be a problem, in these circumstances Big E would have a chance to dissuade Angron from doing this.

[Daddywarcrimes]

Landing on a planet and wiping out key elements of a population in glorious, mural-worthy fashion was something that any of the legions was capable of.  The War Hounds could have done it.  They did lots of it.  However, they were also capable of doing a lot of other things that Angron destroyed their ability to do.

 

No amount of good feelings is going to change that Angron is completely robbed of any tactical or strategic oversight in the heat of battle, which is when his legion would need him most.  He might have been less likely to betray the Emperor, but his loyalty wasn't his major liability.

[Red Angel]

Landing on a planet and wiping out key elements of a population in glorious, mural-worthy fashion was something that any of the legions was capable of.  The War Hounds could have done it.  They did lots of it.  However, they were also capable of doing a lot of other things that Angron destroyed their ability to do.

 

No amount of good feelings is going to change that Angron is completely robbed of any tactical or strategic oversight in the heat of battle, which is when his legion would need him most.  He might have been less likely to betray the Emperor, but his loyalty wasn't his major liability.

With Angron and Nails they could be another scary Legion just like Night Lords. The Legion that care not for casaulties and is sent on forlorn hope missions.

 

If Angron wouldn't gited his sons with Butcher Nails then Legion would not lost much of its tactical or strategical ability. Which could be possible if he weren't slighted by Emperor. Not betrayed Angron+War Hounds without Butcher Nails could be good combination. 

 

Judging by the books we could see that Emperor had some uses for Angron, after all he decided to teleport him away, not let him die, which I agree could be good way to deal with situation. In the end it is matter of opinion and guesswork. We don't know if Big E saving Angron comrades would help, but I think that would be the case.

[tdemayo]

This thread thinks too small.

The Primarchs fell, and the Horus Heresy occurred, because of the fundamental, tragic flaws in humanity itself. This is the central tragedy of the 40k unvierse: in civilization after civilization, and species after species, the evil impuses and desires of sentient beings destroy their better impulses and motive towards cooperation and order. The warp is evil because people's evil impulses are greater than their good ones. The future is grim and dark, shot through with tragic hope, riven by disappointment and failed dreams, because WE are grim and dark, with flickers of failed greatness. It's a very 80s sort of philosophy, and a deeply pessimistic world.

The Emperor's plan was flawed from the beginning. He had a reasonable plan for conquering the galaxy, but he deeply misunderstood the human heart and underestimated the dangers of the warp. He thought his transhuman creations would be more moral, more loyal, and less corruptable than they were. In retrospect, his plan seems to have been to create beings of god-like capability, loyal to himself, and able to command in turn the loyalty of the vast multitudes beneath them. This reliance on individual figures, and on heirarchical loyalty, seems in retrospect, deeply misplaced.

Or perhaps he knew the dangers, but gambled that he could achieve his empire quickly. Perhaps his plan was to lock down the physical universe and shut out the warp before the chaos gods could react. Seizure of the Webway would make this possible.  Perhaps he judged he had 60/40 or 70/30 or whatever odds of success, and rolled the dice. Maybe he intended to kill the Primarchs after the Crusade was complete, so that their long-term loyalty and happiness was simply _not important_ as long as they could shepherd the crusade to fulfillment.  But rebellion occurred before he anticipated.

Either way, if the Emperor had the benefit of our hindsight, and could perform his rise to power again, he would not simply change the way he handled this Primarch or that Primarch . I suspect he might not have made Primarchs at all, or Legions, but something else entirely. I'm sure he's had lots of time to mull it over, as he sits there.

[tdemayo]

Here is a final, even less cheerful thought. Knowing what we know of the warp, it becomes difficult to understand how the Emperor could be so clueless. Others have noted that he doesn't really understand ordinary people very well, or even his own sons. Hasn't he learned anything in 30,000+ years of life? Why did he create such powerful beings, and expect them to just obey? Why does he demand loyalty but have no empathy? Why does he create rigid hierarchical structures that reduce and control the humans in them, but leave them vulnerable to corruption at the top? Why is he such an authoritarian, heartless, manipulative, clueless jerk? Why is he driven by dreams of conquest, war, force and iron?

 

Perhaps it is _because_ he is the god of humanity. It may be that as Master of Mankind, he is in some way its soul, and a reflection of it. In that case, he may simply be an extension write large of all humanity's tendencies and flaws. For all his power and intelligence, it may be that he is incapable of building an empire on other, better, terms than he has, or acting differently than he does.

[Kol Saresk]

There's a saying. It's a very common one. And when it comes to how the Emperor sees Humanity, it fits perfectly.

 

"Not seeing the forest for the trees."

[Yogi]

My headcanon regarding angron is the emperor was largely disgusted with him being a slave. All his brothers rose to power of a fashion.  It justifies the way he was abandoned.

[tdemayo]

I get the impression that as the Crusade got underway, the Emperor was rushed.  Many of his actions, such as with Angron, seem best explained as a man in a hurry.  Angron was both insane and (if you choose to look at it that way) mortally wounded.
Why take this deeply-damaged man, give him only the barest of healing and medical help, and then put him in charge of an army?   Because that army needed a leader, and the pace of the war was more important even than the Primarch.  Patch him up and get as much use out of him as possible before he dies. 

 

Why the rush?  Why not slow down and father the Primarchs for centuries, gaining their trust and loyalty?  I think the Emperor expected a counter-move from Chaos, and he wanted to get the Crusade wrapped up quickly, and back to Terra to complete the Webway project, before they had time for a counter-stroke.  He just didn't realize what exactly Chaos was planning, or that it would capitalize on his failings as a parent. 

[daveNYC]

My headcanon regarding angron is the emperor was largely disgusted with him being a slave. All his brothers rose to power of a fashion.  It justifies the way he was abandoned.

 

I should congratulate you on managing to make the Emperor even less sympathetic than he already is.  Abducted by the ruinous powers, enslaved as a child, mutilated by a device that cripples his mind, and he still manages to raise a slave revolt against the entire population of a high-tech planet.  And when Angron finally meets his father, dad's response should be 'loser'?

 

 

As Angron’s harsh breathing filled the bridge, the Emperor’s

gaze lingered on the crushed Custodies for a moment, then drifted up to take in

the and finally came to rest on the cybernetic cables that had been crudely

socketed into Angron’s skull, and for the briefest moment his mask slipped.

The moment passed, but the entire remained rooted in place

by what they had seen, faces frozen in looks halfway between horror and rapture.  Somewhere by the Captain’s podium, a senior

officer started sobbing.

The Emperor cocked his head as though listening and made a

slight movement with his hand.  Angron

felt a shift in the air as the bridge crew shook themselves and shifted their

focus back to Angron and the dead Custodes at his feet.

In Angron’s skull the nails had stopped their incessant

hammering as the biofeedback circuits fed unparsable data to the archaeotek’s logic

engines, but they adjusted and he could again feel them start to bite.  They were still weak though, and Angron found

that, for the moment, he could ignore them.

“A neat trick.” He growled, “Will you next make me forget

those left behind to die on the sands of Nuceria?”

“I am the Emperor, the Lord of Terra, Master of Mankind, and

ruler of nearly a million planets.  I am

also your father.”  The Emperor’s voice

was soothing and sincere, and at total odds with the being that Angron had seen

just a few seconds earlier.  The nails

faltered at this memory, but their circuitry had adapted their tempo increased

again, enough to cause Angron’s eye to twitch.

The Emperor made another gesture and the Ordinance Control

Officer bleated out in alarm as his displays indicated that cyclonic and vortex

torpedoes were being cycled up from the secondary magazine and were loading

into ships torpedo tubes.

“The people below enslaved, tortured, and mutilated

you.  What they did to you made you less

than you were, less than what you should be. 

They did this to your family, they did it to you.  They did it to my family.”  The cold finality of that last statement drew

Angron’s interest, perhaps this day would end with High-Rider blood flowing on

the sands.

“Angron, you wish to take revenge on those who wronged you

and hunted you and your family across this planet.  Normally I would be loathe to deprive one of

my sons of such a richly deserved prize.”

“But…”, another growl, the nails driving his impatience with

all this speechmaking.

A wire thin smile, “Yes, but…  In this case, I think it more important to

show you what happens to those who harm my family.”  The Emperor turned from Angron and walked towards

the immense viewport at the front of the bridge, “Captain, have the

teleportarium retrieve my son’s family from their campsite.  Once that is completed, await my command to

open fire.”

The Emperor reached the viewing area and turned to face

Angron, “Come and stand by me, I don’t think you are going to want to miss

this.”

 

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

My headcanon regarding angron is the emperor was largely disgusted with him being a slave. All his brothers rose to power of a fashion.  It justifies the way he was abandoned.

 

I should congratulate you on managing to make the Emperor even less sympathetic than he already is.  Abducted by the ruinous powers, enslaved as a child, mutilated by a device that cripples his mind, and he still manages to raise a slave revolt against the entire population of a high-tech planet.  And when Angron finally meets his father, dad's response should be 'loser'?

 

 

As Angron’s harsh breathing filled the bridge, the Emperor’s

gaze lingered on the crushed Custodies for a moment, then drifted up to take in

the and finally came to rest on the cybernetic cables that had been crudely

socketed into Angron’s skull, and for the briefest moment his mask slipped.

The moment passed, but the entire remained rooted in place

by what they had seen, faces frozen in looks halfway between horror and rapture.  Somewhere by the Captain’s podium, a senior

officer started sobbing.

The Emperor cocked his head as though listening and made a

slight movement with his hand.  Angron

felt a shift in the air as the bridge crew shook themselves and shifted their

focus back to Angron and the dead Custodes at his feet.

In Angron’s skull the nails had stopped their incessant

hammering as the biofeedback circuits fed unparsable data to the archaeotek’s logic

engines, but they adjusted and he could again feel them start to bite.  They were still weak though, and Angron found

that, for the moment, he could ignore them.

“A neat trick.” He growled, “Will you next make me forget

those left behind to die on the sands of Nuceria?”

“I am the Emperor, the Lord of Terra, Master of Mankind, and

ruler of nearly a million planets.  I am

also your father.”  The Emperor’s voice

was soothing and sincere, and at total odds with the being that Angron had seen

just a few seconds earlier.  The nails

faltered at this memory, but their circuitry had adapted their tempo increased

again, enough to cause Angron’s eye to twitch.

The Emperor made another gesture and the Ordinance Control

Officer bleated out in alarm as his displays indicated that cyclonic and vortex

torpedoes were being cycled up from the secondary magazine and were loading

into ships torpedo tubes.

“The people below enslaved, tortured, and mutilated

you.  What they did to you made you less

than you were, less than what you should be. 

They did this to your family, they did it to you.  They did it to my family.”  The cold finality of that last statement drew

Angron’s interest, perhaps this day would end with High-Rider blood flowing on

the sands.

“Angron, you wish to take revenge on those who wronged you

and hunted you and your family across this planet.  Normally I would be loathe to deprive one of

my sons of such a richly deserved prize.”

“But…”, another growl, the nails driving his impatience with

all this speechmaking.

A wire thin smile, “Yes, but…  In this case, I think it more important to

show you what happens to those who harm my family.”  The Emperor turned from Angron and walked towards

the immense viewport at the front of the bridge, “Captain, have the

teleportarium retrieve my son’s family from their campsite.  Once that is completed, await my command to

open fire.”

The Emperor reached the viewing area and turned to face

Angron, “Come and stand by me, I don’t think you are going to want to miss

this.”

 

 

 

But instead we get Tywin Lannister with an extra dose of "if you are worthless to the legacy, then you are worthless to me."

[Wade Garrett]

Can someone please explain to me how slaughtering the helpless women and children of Nuceria, the farmers, the traders, the conscript soldiers forced into the high riders ranks, the slaves still languishing in their chains, all of them reduced to ash for the sins of a few...

 

These actions are meant to make the Emperor MORE sympathetic?

[daveNYC]

Naw, I didn't write that heap of text to make the Emperor look like a nice guy, it was more to come up with something that would convince Angron that the Emperor had his back.  I'm not even sure you could make the Emperor look like a nice guy.  Even when he's showing compassion you have to remember that his Great Crusade is based on

 

1) Total xenocide.  Humanity is number 1 and there is no place for number 2.  There's no counting the number of sentient species he's eliminated.  Pick the friendliest, nicest, most awesome alien from any scifi movie.  The Emperor would shoot every member of their species.

2) Total obedience: One man, one vote, and the Emperor is The Man.  Got a problem with his policies?  Take it up with the bolt pistol pointed at your head.

[randian]

I've always wondered if the Emperor knew Angron had been corrupted by Khorne. The nature of the Nails (anti-psyker, hyper-aggression) and Nuceria itself (planet-wide gladiatorial games) screams "Khorne" even if no overt corruption is found.

[Greyall]

I don't think so, Randian. Fight sports are an integral part of every human society, like them or hate them. And the Nails, truth be told, are a logical, if monstruous innovation for a society in which said sports are so important. I'll agree that corrupting Angron was pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel (although in this case the fish seemed to try to kill itself before anything was accomplished).

 

Although, with war galaxy-wide, you could say Khorne is pretty much everywhere...

[randian]

I don't think so, Randian. Fight sports are an integral part of every human society, like them or hate them. And the Nails, truth be told, are a logical, if monstruous innovation for a society in which said sports are so important. I'll agree that corrupting Angron was pretty much like shooting fish in a barrel (although in this case the fish seemed to try to kill itself before anything was accomplished).

The aggression feature of the nails is ordinary, though as you say monstrous. It's the anti-psyker features that disturb me. How would one even accidentally get such an ability? It's suspiciously similar to a Collar of Khorne.

[Greyall]

Aye, that's true, at the end of the day and with no other info, I'd say it's a matter of whether or not one believes in coincidences. It acts like a scrambler for the mind, making Warp-magic hard to land, right?

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, it isn't that surprising. Psykers in 40K are supposed to be hyperaware of what goes on around them. When its untrained or insignificant in terms of power level, it merely looks like fantastic instincts and reflexes.

 

But when it comes to Librarians who are trained to increase that hyper-sensitivity for use on the battlefield, having a device that basically beats the mind and then goes Josef Mengele on it nearby isn't exactly something comfortable. And since Astartes all seem to be connected by blood telepathy(or blood magic, or however you want to call it; the primarch's blood connects them all on a very weak telepathic field; That's why when the Primarch dies, everyone nearby goes bonkers; probably stringer in the Blood Angels because they take in more Primarch DNA than everyone else), the Librarians become extremely aware of their brothers' sufferings, which in turn creates an empathy field that allows the afflicted to feel the true extent of their pain. But because of local superstition, "its the witch's fault."

 

And when we get to the psykers who had the Nails implanted blowing up, that one is rather obvious. If you can't control the pressure on a pipeline, it is only a matter of time until it blows. And the reason what they did to their brothers(bleeding from the nose and eyes) was reflected on them by Angron, was because of the empathic response. Ie, Angron showed them the true extent of the pain they were suffering.

 

At least, that's my personal headcanon.

[Yogi]

 

My headcanon regarding angron is the emperor was largely disgusted with him being a slave. All his brothers rose to power of a fashion.  It justifies the way he was abandoned.

 

I should congratulate you on managing to make the Emperor even less sympathetic than he already is.  Abducted by the ruinous powers, enslaved as a child, mutilated by a device that cripples his mind, and he still manages to raise a slave revolt against the entire population of a high-tech planet.  And when Angron finally meets his father, dad's response should be 'loser'?

 

You left out the eldar trying to kill him as a child, which I expect allowed him to be captured. But, Angron is a primarch not an ordinary man. Even with the nails he has numerous advantages over mortals. Its not impressive. If he had at least won, and actually killed the high riders, that would be a basic success. He is a complete failure. And a broken primarch has no use. Any legion could depopulate an entire planet with close combat, they don't because its pointless. Just like Angron.    

[Greyall]

I'm not sure a Primarch and a few hundred humans can win agains an army of tens of thousands...Corax at least had a large population from where to draw support and he still waged a guerilla war. Angron would find that impossible with the bloodlusting buzz in his brain.

 

I'm sure he had its uses...he could and should only have been used against Xenos and the very worst of human factions, if the Imperium didn't want to witness city-wide slaughters. But they did use them against more than those, so tough luck bawling after unleashing the hound.