30K rules, what would you tweak?

[spu00sed]

I was wondering what rules would you change or remove from the FW rule set.  Im not talking about massive changes, just a few small changes that feel right.

 

For example, my changes:

 

1) Vexillia is available to terminators, veteran tactical squads, tactical squads, assault squads, jet bike squads, bike squads and heavy weapon squads.

 

These are the core squads of the army and should all be allowed to wave flags to show the commander where each sqaud is

 

2) Models with boarding shield gain +1 toughness (or +1 invulnerable save) when in base contact with 2 or more other models with the shield

 

This gives a tactical use for breachers, though with a downside.

 

3) Command squads don't come with a banner.  May upgrade to a cohort/company/personal heraldry banner (all the same thing just different cool names) or a legion banner

 

Praetors don't always lead massive sections of the legion, so shouldn't always have the legion banner with them

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I was wondering what rules would you change or remove from the FW rule set.  Im not talking about massive changes, just a few small changes that feel right.

 

For example, my changes:

 

1) Vexillia is available to terminators, veteran tactical squads, tactical squads, assault squads, jet bike squads, bike squads and heavy weapon squads.

 

These are the core squads of the army and should all be allowed to wave flags to show the commander where each sqaud is

 

2) Models with boarding shield gain +1 toughness (or +1 invulnerable save) when in base contact with 2 or more other models with the shield

 

This gives a tactical use for breachers, though with a downside.

 

3) Command squads don't come with a banner.  May upgrade to a cohort/company/personal heraldry banner (all the same thing just different cool names) or a legion banner

 

Praetors don't always lead massive sections of the legion, so shouldn't always have the legion banner with them

 

Command Squads do come with a Banner, and +1 T for Breachers is a unique IF thing. 

[Sevatar]

I reckon it should be standard for all, as they are overpriced in my opinion. I would make Outriders, Seekers and Veterans all cheaper. 

I would reduce the price on the Basilisk and Hyperios. Oh my, Assault Squads. I would make them 200 standard, 12 for the next man. Currently, I feel they are too pricy. Also, I would increase Command squad to 5-10 model size. Hmmm. I would also make Magma Melta Predators worth it, and the same applies to Recon squads.

[Grizwald23]

I agree bleachers need to be made better +1 invulnerable standard and maybe +2 invulnerable if 2 or more are in base contact or an

incress in toughness. This is one of my favorite squad fluff wise however I can't justify spending the money on them sine they arn't worth it right now game wise.

[Marshal Rohr]

I reckon it should be standard for all, as they are overpriced in my opinion. I would make Outriders, Seekers and Veterans all cheaper. 

I would reduce the price on the Basilisk and Hyperios. Oh my, Assault Squads. I would make them 200 standard, 12 for the next man. Currently, I feel they are too pricy. Also, I would increase Command squad to 5-10 model size. Hmmm. I would also make Magma Melta Predators worth it, and the same applies to Recon squads.

 

 

Maybe someone with the collectors edition can elaborate, but I was under the impression that the Legion List had several units with point price modifications, like Justaerin and Assault Squads, maybe even breachers. Mine is on its way across the pond as we speak so I can look once it arrives, but until then maybe one of our more fortunate brothers can illuminate us. 

[Emperor's Furor]

 

I was wondering what rules would you change or remove from the FW rule set.  Im not talking about massive changes, just a few small changes that feel right.

 

For example, my changes:

 

1) Vexillia is available to terminators, veteran tactical squads, tactical squads, assault squads, jet bike squads, bike squads and heavy weapon squads.

 

These are the core squads of the army and should all be allowed to wave flags to show the commander where each sqaud is

 

2) Models with boarding shield gain +1 toughness (or +1 invulnerable save) when in base contact with 2 or more other models with the shield

 

This gives a tactical use for breachers, though with a downside.

 

3) Command squads don't come with a banner.  May upgrade to a cohort/company/personal heraldry banner (all the same thing just different cool names) or a legion banner

 

Praetors don't always lead massive sections of the legion, so shouldn't always have the legion banner with them

 

Command Squads do come with a Banner, and +1 T for Breachers is a unique IF thing. 

I believe he means he'd rather the command squad doesn't automatically come with a banner and I agree, why does a commanders bodyguard always have to carry about a big sod off banner, they ain't always the ultramarines.

[Sanct]

Add rules for tartaros armour

Phoenix power spear swapping 2-handed for specialist or working in the first round of any combat instead of only on a charge

+1 on buffing assault and breachers a shade (maybe just reduce the cost of their bonus marines)

[Marshal Rohr]

The banner itself doesn't have to be modeled as such. For instance I've seen an Iron Hand army with a massive Cog around the Clan Symbol, a Sons of Horus army with a well done Plasticard Eye of Horus. 1000Heathens uses the IG Cav Guidon for his banner. Personally, I had the idea of a Raven Guard legionary with a Cyber Raven on his arm to stand in for the Bearer representing a small UAV that transmits battle data to the squad representing the Banner's benefits. 

[Moonstalker]

Reduce price on several units, like Breachers, Assault Marines, Seekers, Outriders.  Completely rework the Vigilator.  He probably needs to be 10 points cheaper, with a better support ability.  Allow Centurions to take a veteran squad of their own, so that you can have a Centurion in TDA + 4 Terminators in a Land Raider to help restore some usefulness to LRs.  Probably combined with a points drop on LRs.  If playtesting shows that that doesn't go far enough, I would push the Spartan up to 6 HP and make it a Lord of War, like the Typhon/Cerberus, and possibly push its point cost up as well.  Put the WW Scorpios in the Legion Artillery Tank Squadron as an upgrade option on the WW (like the Hyperios).  Reduce the point cost of the Basilisk by a little bit, reduce the point cost of the WW/WW Hyperios by a lot.  Combine Mortis dreadnoughts with their fellows in dreadnought talons, so you could field, say, 2 Contemptors and 1 Contemptor-Mortis as a single Talon.  Given the fact that Sicarans exist, I'd reduce the point cost of Land Speeders and Javelins.  They're too fragile in the 30k environment, too much high strength shooting.

 

I'd make Vindicators squadronable, at least.  HS is too competitive a slot to waste it on a single Vindicator, which really cuts their usefulness.  I might also extend squadrons to Sicarans, but maybe not.

 

Cut prices on all melta weapons.  They're dirt cheap in 40k, and here they cost as much as plasma while being less useful.  Buff rotor cannons, they look cool but have awful rules.  Volkite serpentas/chargers are a little overpriced.  Buff charnabal sabres, maybe give them a 4+ or 5+ rending or something.

 

Rework Praetors.  I'd start by making them tougher.  They either all get tough 5 and the Salamander's cloak remains the same, or the Salamander's cloak gives them T5 and they all get EW.  With tougher Praetors, people may look to stronger weapons, and we might see some more weapon variety.  Reduce the cost of their pistol options.  Add some kind of squad-buff to them.  Maybe a choose-a-USR per turn like we see from Logan Grimnar.  Currently, Praetors are too selfish and don't help the army enough.

[Marshal Rohr]

Reduce price on several units, like Breachers, Assault Marines, Seekers, Outriders.  Completely rework the Vigilator.  He probably needs to be 10 points cheaper, with a better support ability. 

 

Allow Centurions to take a veteran squad of their own, so that you can have a Centurion in TDA + 4 Terminators in a Land Raider to help restore some usefulness to LRs.  Probably combined with a points drop on LRs. 

 

If playtesting shows that that doesn't go far enough, I would push the Spartan up to 6 HP and make it a Lord of War, like the Typhon/Cerberus, and possibly push its point cost up as well.  Put the WW Scorpios in the Legion Artillery Tank Squadron as an upgrade option on the WW (like the Hyperios).  Reduce the point cost of the Basilisk by a little bit, reduce the point cost of the WW/WW Hyperios by a lot.  Combine Mortis dreadnoughts with their fellows in dreadnought talons, so you could field, say, 2 Contemptors and 1 Contemptor-Mortis as a single Talon.  Given the fact that Sicarans exist, I'd reduce the point cost of Land Speeders and Javelins.  They're too fragile in the 30k environment, too much high strength shooting.

 

I'd make Vindicators squadronable, at least.  HS is too competitive a slot to waste it on a single Vindicator, which really cuts their usefulness.  I might also extend squadrons to Sicarans, but maybe not.

 

Cut prices on all melta weapons.  They're dirt cheap in 40k, and here they cost as much as plasma while being less useful.  Buff rotor cannons, they look cool but have awful rules.  Volkite serpentas/chargers are a little overpriced.  Buff charnabal sabres, maybe give them a 4+ or 5+ rending or something.

 

Rework Praetors.  I'd start by making them tougher.  They either all get tough 5 and the Salamander's cloak remains the same, or the Salamander's cloak gives them T5 and they all get EW.  With tougher Praetors, people may look to stronger weapons, and we might see some more weapon variety.  Reduce the cost of their pistol options.  Add some kind of squad-buff to them.  Maybe a choose-a-USR per turn like we see from Logan Grimnar.  Currently, Praetors are too selfish and don't help the army enough.

 

Some of these ideas could work, but squadrons of Sicarans, Vindicators, and Scorpius are left out because the vehicles weren't as widespread. The later books may chage that, but 3 Sicarans only taking up one HS slot would be too easily abusable. The beauty of the Legion list is that its hard to optimize, and it needs to stay that way. 

[Moonstalker]

Vindicators were widespread.  SoH used them in pretty large numbers.  And since the Legion Artillery Choice is 0-1, you still can have a max of 3 WW Scorpius.  Your concern is valid, though, that's why I was a little iffy about the Sicaran.

[Marshal Rohr]

As fun as it would be to model, just the chance of running into 9 Sicarans would keep anyone with skimmers from ever taking them. Or for that matter any armored unit. Right now you can have 18 Rending Str 7 shots from 3 Sicarans, which is awesome, but its pretty much all the anti-armor you can have unless you spam Contemptors (which would rack up points really fast) or Melta Support Squads (which are also incredibly expensive)

[Pyromancer]

I would let command squads use thunder hammers and boarding shields. That would be an awesome unit to model.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

There really aren't many balance problems with the list but some units are over costed, a lot.

Units I Would Tweak:

 

Phoenix Guard: The elite of a legion who prides itself on martial skill are only as skilled as the average joe... I'd make them 15 Points cheaper, WS5 base and WS6 for the sergeant.

 

Paragon Blade: Remove Decapitating Blow but lose 5 points to its cost.

 

Assault Squads: base price goes down to 200, they are way to expensive as it is.

 

Breachers (and Breacher special units): Instead of all the fancy invulnerable saves give them Siege Mantlets from IA Badab but make adding more Breachers more expensive

 

Justaerin: base price goes down to 135, right now they are so over costed I almost assumed it was a typo when I looked at them.

 

Outriders: 25 points per model, Scout is not worth that much

 

Seekers: Go down in points or gain better ammo choices.

 

Abaddon: gains Eternal Warrior, +1 W, and a Paragon Blade instead of a power sword. Right now he's a joke compared to what a basic Praetor gives you.

 

Any Praetor-esque character without a 2+: give them a 2+ save, it's dumb that the First Captain of The Night Lords would be less protected than Praetor Joe.

 

Vindicator: goes down 20 points. They cannot Squadren which is a massive disadvantage for HH and they are outclassed by both the Scorpius and a Predator w/ HCB

[Ahrimanjjb]

Personally I would change some of the Legion rules, namely the alpha legion and possibly the night lords which, iirc, both involve a large number of units infiltrating, something I don't think represents those legions at all but was instead just taken from the 3.5 ed chaos codex, a book I believe missed the mark with some of the legion rules and its a shame Forge World did too.

 

Though I might be alone in that regard haha.

[Marshal Rohr]

Sevatar has a 3+ save because if he reaches you, you die. Then only thing you have is to shoot him. He's even got psychic powers!

 

 

Alpha Legion doesn't infiltrate unless you give up the other special rules, and the Night Lords are an air assault/airborne army. 

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Sevatar has a 3+ save because if he reaches you, you die. Then only thing you have is to shoot him. He's even got psychic powers!

 

 

Alpha Legion doesn't infiltrate unless you give up the other special rules, and the Night Lords are an air assault/airborne army. 

I think you overestimate Sevatar's CC prowess. A sergeant with AA and a Power Fist will kill him.

[Brofist]

• Buff vindicators with ignore cover or a reduction to cover saves... or go hog wild and let them take better side and front armor
• Let librarians have their first psychic power for free
• Either cut the cost of breachers or give them a buff like siege mantlets from the assault vanguard list
• +1 strength to rotor cannons, as currently they are pretty useless
• Buff phosphex somehow, right now S10 AP1 is a better and cheaper option
• Give whirlwinds hyperios warheads for free. Imgaine how reasonable whirlwinds would become if you had 3 warhead options?
• Reduce the points cost on a primaris-lightning by about 20-45 points. Right now they are basically pre-heresy hellbaldes (paper thin armor, ok firepower, high points cost)

Price decreases and tweaks would be positive for lots of legion specific units too, along with regular old assault and destroyer squads (which some of you guys already mentioned). Off the top of my head the IWs Warsmith- give them battlesmith upgrades for free. Otherwise it's a preator upgrade that gives you stubborn and shatter defenses at the cost of loosing 2 victory points if killed (IE- a pretty bad deal).

[MiR]

Pircedrop for a few Units 1.

- Command Squads, Assault Squads, Attack Bikes

 

Add Something Flyers and Skimmers get Tougher, maybe something like Holofields or (Void)Shields.

 

Nearly complete rework of:

SoH: Justerins are far to expensive, need Pricedrop by 100 Points or so, each additinal Model for 30P, Transport in Phobos, Dreadclaw or Spartan

         Reaver: Give them Infiltrate insteat of Flanking.

         Rite of Black Reaving: All Astartes in Servo gain Fleet. All Astartes gain Rage when they Charge. Cant take more Heavy Support then Fast Attack.

         Legion trait become: Additinal Attack at ini step 1. No matter how much Models are in CC.

   Horus: Drop Points to 450. Vulkan is as much as hard, cant be killed with Shooting (exept from Lasers) and cheaper than Horus (LOL).

  Abbaddon: Gain Ethernal Warrior (he will life 10k years and become ultimate Champion of Chaos, he deseves it). His MC Power Fist Strikes at Ini! (Yes, now u Fear him.) And Justerins become NON-Compulsory Troop Choice. Then Points for him are OK.

 

World Eater:

Give them something to Compensate for the SoH Buff. They should be the best CC Legion in Heresy, but the difference betwen them and SoH, Emperors Chlidren, Night Lords and other is in Game Therms is hard to explain.

 

Emperors Children:

Crusader is a bad Joke. Lets see what others get......Night Lords +1to Wound, Salamander 3!!!!! dice Ld (best trade in 30k), Iron Hands Shooting aganst them -1Str.

ect. Pls make a real trait for them. Crusader is not enough. Maybe let them reroll 1 Dice per turn or something like that.

 

Death Guard is fine i think, havent played against them.

 

Salamander: Very strong Legion, maybe best Rite of War atm. The Drednought HQ is to strong! nearly unkillable in smaler Games. Add an 2k Point min for him.

 

Iron Hands: Fine.

 

PS: Yes, i play SoH. So maybe i buffed them to much, but i didnt think so. There by far the weakest Legion by now and there Rite of Black Reaving is a so bad, i dont know why someone will take it. Ok Fluff is ALWAYS an answer i can accept. But lets see it realistic, i played around 15 to 20 Games at 1k to 2k Points with them and i havent even fielded Justerins (so i also havent used deep strike) to expensive, Termis are better. The Fleet from Reserve i used ONCE and the Rage i when i Charge in an ongoing Combat i used NEVER. You cant...... you have to wait an entire turn for this becouse in the same round its not an ongoing charge so this Rules suck hard. A Rite i cant even use the special Rules is not worth taking. So Pls do something about it!

 

Edit: Mostly i have to say, 30k is a pretty solid and good designd Game. Atm i like it more than standart 40k becouse the Rules and Paticipating Legions are better designed.

[Brofist]

Most of the ROWs, while fluffy, are pretty mediocre or points prohibitive.

 

And yeah, the legions from the first book seem to have gotten the most 'conservative' unique rules.

[hisdudeness]

I frankly don't see anything wrong with 30k as it is and wouldn't "fix" a thing.

 

If you think breachers are over priced for their rules you must not have fielded them in a Zone Mortalis game. 

 

I run an all assault/jumppack army and see no problem with the cost of assault squads for the amount of pain they can bring.

[MiR]

Salamander ,Iron Hands and Word Bearer RoW are quite strong. The restrictions are very whorth the benefits.

Pyroclast in an Achilles Alpha are a very hard to handle. Shooting with Bolters and medium Str Weapons at Ironhands are so less evective.

And having an DemonPrince in 30k is so Strong. Yes you can handle him, but he is a real Pain.

The Iron Hands RoW isnt te strongest, yes but the Legion is alredy strong and Battle Automata are nearly OP in 30k, becouse of there Str 6 AP 3 H.Bolter.

 

I think the older Legions and there Rites, and the Points cost of a vew Untis are the only thing i didnt like atm.

Preator, Vigilator and some Fast Attack units maybe need some extras.

 

Best thing ever what FW has done is the high inital price for Units, and a huge drop when buing additinal Models. I dont like the Unit spam from 40k with tons of special Weapons.

[BassWave]

Ugh, I would change the limitations on how many jump pack units I can bring in an IH force. I understand that the limitations on bikes and jet bikes are for balance, but why jump pack units? It's the salamanders that historically didn't use flying equipment because of the gravity on their planet made training for such things too dangerous. Atleast I can bring as many speeders as I want. (If I don't take the IH specific RoW) That fluff blurb in Massacre stating that the Tenth rarely used such units because of their tactics made me cringe. It's blatantly an excuse to justify their rules. FWs fluff still light years ahead of Clan Raukaan in terms of quality though...

 

I agree that breachers need an upgrade. However, +1 toughness when in base to base would be insane on immortals...

 

An upgrade for standard dreads to increase their front armor by one would be nice.

 

More pistol variants for the Moritat would be cool, if only so plasma pistols weren't auto take.

 

Vindicators should atleast be available in squadrons of two. 9 vindicators would be too insane in my opinion. 6 might still be too much.

 

Castellax should be atleast non-compulsory troops like support squads. Taking an army of monstrous creatures is something that not even tyranids do...

 

Tech thralls should be compulsory troops, and have their squad size increased considerably.

 

And lastly, rotary cannons. An astartes weapon even worse than a lasgun. Wut?? Perhaps giving it shred and strength 4 would be enough to be worth it.

[Brofist]

Castellax in the Taghmata Army are noncompulsory troops, but the Legio Cybernetica still has them as a troops option. I'm kinda OK with it since the Cybernetica doesn't really have many other options.

[Marshal Rohr]

Cybernetica can take Thanatar, Ursarax, and Vorax too. So if you want pure robots, you can definitely pull it off.