What are the biggest differences between Wolves and Scars?

[b1soul]

Scars provides a window into the Fifth Legion's soul, their culture, their beliefs, their mindset.  

 

In the old fluff, the two legions and their primarchs are fast friends, brothers in a true sense. 

 

In the new fluff, Jaghatai and the Scars hold a disdain for the barbarity of the Wolves. Russ and the Wolves seem to indifferent to the Scars. 

 

In light of Scars, what do you think separates the Fifth and the Sixth?

[Marshall Bretton]

I think the biggest differences are that the scars take themselves away from the rest of the imperium and prefer to be alone, the wolves choose to take the dirtiest jobs which isolates them from the other legions because no one else wants to do them.

 

Also the scars resent the fact that they are seen as feral and wild, and want to be accepted as what they really are which is cultured and sophisticated.

The wolves embrace their feral role and actually use it as a cover so that enemies under estimate them and don't expect the calculated cunning and efficient strategies and tactics that they use (and it also allows them to massively troll pompous officers and the like by playing the savage roll to annoy them)

[Leif Bearclaw]

While I haven't read Scars, going on the FW titbits about the V, there seems to be a temperament distinction between the V and VI, along with resenting/embracing their barbarian aesthetic respectively.

While the Scars are included by FW in a list of Legions that commonly laid world to waste, they repeatedly refer to the Scars as quixotic, the impression seemingly that the Legion is temperamental and somewhat unreliable (this is even mentioned as a potential doom of the Legion in the Massacre Salamanders fluff, along with the IIIs lack of numbers early crusade and the XVIIIs habit of biting off more than they can chew). I can see the V deploying according to the Khan's whim.

This contrasts with the Wolves, whose entire Heresy fluff is that they are, in their own way, completely reliable. They shadow crusade fleets, commit when there's major opposition to destroy and generally look for the campaign that will keep the crusade rolling forwards. When they deploy, whatever they're fighting is destroyed, completely and with the minimum of wasted effort. They're a dirty job Legion in similar vein to the Night Lords, World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Death Guard, but they do it without the biohazard collateral of the Death Guard, the berserker infantry focus of the World Eaters, the resentment of the Iron Warriors or the sadism/terror inducing of the Night Lords. Plus of course, the loyalty all those other legion lacked . (Hope this didn't come across as too SW fanboyish, that wasn't my intention).

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I think that the Scars care more than the Wolves about other people's understanding. The Scars have a sophisticated culture but it is very different from that of Terra and regions like Ultramar so people don't always recognise/respect it. Collectively they are like a quiet person who wants to fit in but doesn't because other people don't get them so they just quietly withdraw and get on with their own thing. The Wolves have an attitude that is more confident/arrogant - they go, "This is how I am, accept it or get out of my way."

[Raulmichile]

The Wolves are even uglier than the WS... That also counts.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

The Wolves are even uglier than the WS... That also counts.

 

It's called "savage chic".

[WGXH]

What is the largest difference?

 

The smell of gasoline and moustaches compared to the aroma of wet dog and braided beards.

[b1soul]

(this is even mentioned as a potential doom of the Legion in the Massacre  Salamanders fluff, along with the IIIs lack of numbers early crusade and the XVIIIs habit of biting off more than they can chew)

 

Doom of the Scars?

[Conn Eremon]

The Wolves represent the common, popular elements of the Western Barbarian.

 

The Scars represent the Eastern 'other,' often mistakenly compared to the Western barbarian by the Western perspective.

 

Makes sense that the Scars would resent the comparison.

[Scribe]

I think the biggest differences are that the scars take themselves away from the rest of the imperium and prefer to be alone, the wolves choose to take the dirtiest jobs which isolates them from the other legions because no one else wants to do them.

 

Other than the claims by Wolves (and Prospero Burns which is a sin against the pantheon), is there any basis to this? I just find it so unfathomably unreasonable to think that there are any tasks, that are beyond any legion to do on a moral basis.

 

Yes, I've seen the flavour quotes by ADB, but its simply not enough.

 

EDIT: I realize now that I jumped at the first bait put in front of me...

 

As to the topic. I believe both traditionally had a more wild, 'uncivilized' trait to them. Scars puts them more firmly in the camp of the Scars choosing that kind of life, while the Wolves are more an act, 'it takes a lot of control to look this dangerous' to paraphrase.

 

The Scars are a different culture, but one that is only percieved to be less cultured, more..to hit the cliche 'eastern' philosophy than the Roman/Greek/Western Legions. The bit in Scars about how they knew of the Warp, or at least the Khan did, and he disagreed with the Emperor, is a great call out to the fact they see things differently.

 

Meanwhile, the basis of the Wolves is Fenris, and while it forms their culture, its not simply a different kind of culture, it is more savage, and this is played to quite a bit, with the dialogue, and the whole fangs, and going for the throat (you see this perfectly in Vengeful Spirit actually).

 

I guess to me.

 

Scars are perceived to be uncultured or barbaric, but are simply different, and have a different world view.

Wolves are savage, in both culture and deed.

[Conn Eremon]

And yet, the Iron Warriors can lay claim to the same thing. The dirtiest jobs that isolate them from be other Legions.

[Scribe]

Exactly my point.

 

The Wolves claim it, and continue to claim it as if its a defining trait.

The IW DID IT, and continue to claim it as a trait and reason for them turning.

 

I have a hard time thinking that any of the Legions would have flinched in any duty asked of them during the Crusade when asked directly by the big E.

 

Kill that army.

Kill that world.

Kill that Legion.

[Conn Eremon]

I have a hard time thinking any but a very small few would actually do the last one, and those that would, Wolves included, would still balk at the thought. But, we have only seen it the once, and if there were ever any other instances of it happening, we'll never see it. The one time we have seen it, the one Legion tasked with it did hesitate, but chose to go through with it anyways.

 

It's all conjecture what other Legions would have done in that situation, and thinking about other instances of it happening even more conjecture.

[Stonerhino]

 

I think the biggest differences are that the scars take themselves away from the rest of the imperium and prefer to be alone, the wolves choose to take the dirtiest jobs which isolates them from the other legions because no one else wants to do them.

 

Other than the claims by Wolves (and Prospero Burns which is a sin against the pantheon), is there any basis to this? I just find it so unfathomably unreasonable to think that there are any tasks, that are beyond any legion to do on a moral basis.

There are to many little quote from all over the series to make it anything worth doing. The relevent ones being:

Scars:

First you have Bjorn lamenting how the Wolves are happered by a constant deployment to some of the hardest warzones. By choice though.

 

Then you have the Khan seeing Prospero. Commenting on the destruction (paraphrased) "The Wolves did this... Maybe they are as strong as their boasts".

 

Little Horus:

One Son of Horus comments on the White Scars reminding him of the Space Wolves. As far as both being exceptionally deadly.

 

Then in Vengful Spirit you have:

 

 

Malcador the sigillite talking to the Emperor about the potental folly of having Russ start desiding "Who is a traitor".  Like it was plausable for him to actually execute anyone he saw fit.  After saying that the Emperor "Wrought Russ for a terrible purpose".

 

 

Really the quotes about the Wolves go all the way back to Horus Rising.  You just have to start looking for them and they are all over the place.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

(this is even mentioned as a potential doom of the Legion in the Massacre  Salamanders fluff, along with the IIIs lack of numbers early crusade and the XVIIIs habit of biting off more than they can chew)

 

Doom of the Scars?

Yeah, don't have my copy of Massacre to hand, so I can't give a precise quote. But it's something like senior figures in the Crusade thought that the XVIIIs insistence about always fighting desperate, uphill struggles had the potential to destroy the Legion, comparison is then drawn to the III with its limited numbers pre Fulgrim and the volatile temperament of the V. Granted, this may well be pre Khan, and he may have straightened that out (but I somewhat doubt it, given FWs Scars titbits have been pretty consistent about their quixotic nature).

[b1soul]

I have a more general question...

 

Do you guys like that they've tried to distance the two legions from each other? In the old fluff, they're buddies. 

 

Now it almost seems like they're trying very hard to distinguish between the two (Wraight did a fine job in my opinion) 

[Stonerhino]

I think that they are still buddies.  In Vengeful Spirit Russ mentions an attack that was taught to him by the Khan.  I however think that the Scars are jealous of the Wolves acceptance and how they get dropped in the same hat.  At least by those who don't know them.  But I feel that that is only because Russ was found first and is more vocal.  Had the Khan been found first and started the "Stereo type" for savage Astartes then it would be the Wolves upset at trying to shake that image instead.

[b1soul]

I think that they are still buddies.  In Vengeful Spirit Russ mentions an attack that was taught to him by the Khan. 

 

That really didn't seem to be the case in Scars. Khan and his Scars hold a deep disdain for  the Wolves, it's a big chip on the shoulder. Khan is also furious at Russ for possibly killing Magnus. 

 

Perhaps they started out as friends but had a falling out over the librarian issue. That would make sense 

[Aegnor]

I thought the best quote about the Scars, in Scars, was that the Khan was always at the centre, at the fulcrum - but that it never seemed that way to others until the crisis actually arrived, and then it would become clear that he had positioned himself perfectly.

 

That's the difference. Russ and his Legion actively insert themselves in the centre of where they are told they are needed - out of duty and fierce loyalty. The Khan and his Legion roam far and wide to ensure they insert themselves, unlooked for, where they deem themselves most needed. They have a knack for doing this in a way others don't realise was needed until the moment arrives.

 

One isn't better than the other - really the Imperium/Emperor's vision needs BOTH.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I like that the writers have given them more distinction, particularly from the perspective of the Scars who suffered in early fluff from being "the other barbarian legion". Now we see that that was a misconception on the part of the wider Imperium. Brotherhood of the Storm has a great bit where a Khan tells the Munitorum general that she thinks like a Terran, with rigid rules and timetables to organise a complex world like Terra but the Scars have no need of such things. The reason they don't meet their supply ships on time and things like that aren't an inability to organise themselves, it's a deliberate philosophy of fluidity.

[Marshall Bretton]

My point about the wolves taking the dirty jobs did come from a large number of quotes around the place, right from the first book in the series. I didn't say other legions didn't take the dirty jobs as well, but the wolves did it more.

To clarify by dirty I do not mean hard, I mean the jobs no one else wanted to really do, the ones where there was a large amount of effort for very little reward. Other legions would look for the fights likely to bring them more renown or glory, whilst the wolves would look for the fights where they were needed. From reading more of scars (still not actually finished it) there seems to be an element of the scars doing the same

in Scars Bjorn actually states this as a reason for why the wolves are a smaller legion relative to the others, because they take the jobs which have higher casualty rates for whatever reason

[Wade Garrett]

I didn't say other legions didn't take the dirty jobs as well, but the wolves did it more.

To clarify by dirty I do not mean hard, I mean the jobs no one else wanted to really do, the ones where there was a large amount of effort for very little reward.

Perturabo:

"Urge to...decimate own Legion...rising....must talk in...Shatnerian fragments because....of effort in using iron willpower to...hold back...RAAAAGE!"

[Aegnor]

Nobody cares what Perturabo thinks Wade.

 

 

 

 

 

No really, they don't. That's like his whole shtick.

[b1soul]

I like that the writers have given them more distinction, particularly from the perspective of the Scars who suffered in early fluff from being "the other barbarian legion". Now we see that that was a misconception on the part of the wider Imperium. Brotherhood of the Storm has a great bit where a Khan tells the Munitorum general that she thinks like a Terran, with rigid rules and timetables to organise a complex world like Terra but the Scars have no need of such things. The reason they don't meet their supply ships on time and things like that aren't an inability to organise themselves, it's a deliberate philosophy of fluidity.

 

Yes...and the Scars also go out of their way to recruit Asiatic Terrans, which sets them apart from other legions even more

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I like that the writers have given them more distinction, particularly from the perspective of the Scars who suffered in early fluff from being "the other barbarian legion". Now we see that that was a misconception on the part of the wider Imperium. Brotherhood of the Storm has a great bit where a Khan tells the Munitorum general that she thinks like a Terran, with rigid rules and timetables to organise a complex world like Terra but the Scars have no need of such things. The reason they don't meet their supply ships on time and things like that aren't an inability to organise themselves, it's a deliberate philosophy of fluidity.

Yes...and the Scars also go out of their way to recruit Asiatic Terrans, which sets them apart from other legions even more

Which isn't that shocking of a sentiment when you get the Wolves who attempted to recruit solely from Fenris.