What are the biggest differences between Wolves and Scars?

[Scyld Fireblade]

My point about the wolves taking the dirty jobs did come from a large number of quotes around the place, right from the first book in the series. I didn't say other legions didn't take the dirty jobs as well, but the wolves did it more.

To clarify by dirty I do not mean hard, I mean the jobs no one else wanted to really do, the ones where there was a large amount of effort for very little reward. Other legions would look for the fights likely to bring them more renown or glory, whilst the wolves would look for the fights where they were needed. From reading more of scars (still not actually finished it) there seems to be an element of the scars doing the same

in Scars Bjorn actually states this as a reason for why the wolves are a smaller legion relative to the others, because they take the jobs which have higher casualty rates for whatever reason

FW HH3 actually says that the Wolves were a "substantial" legion, alongside the Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors. I believe it also mentions the White Scars as being one of the faster growing legions early in the great crusade.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

My point about the wolves taking the dirty jobs did come from a large number of quotes around the place, right from the first book in the series. I didn't say other legions didn't take the dirty jobs as well, but the wolves did it more.

To clarify by dirty I do not mean hard, I mean the jobs no one else wanted to really do, the ones where there was a large amount of effort for very little reward. Other legions would look for the fights likely to bring them more renown or glory, whilst the wolves would look for the fights where they were needed. From reading more of scars (still not actually finished it) there seems to be an element of the scars doing the same

in Scars Bjorn actually states this as a reason for why the wolves are a smaller legion relative to the others, because they take the jobs which have higher casualty rates for whatever reason

FW HH3 actually says that the Wolves were a "substantial" legion, alongside the Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors. I believe it also mentions the White Scars as being one of the faster growing legions early in the great crusade.

 

 

Yeah, but as has been discussed in multiple places, the "requirements" for being a substantial Legion are iffy at best. You get 80,000-90,000 as "small-tier", 90,000 to 113,000 as mid-tier and then anything above that as large-tier, or "substantial". Heck, the Night Lords' numbers were put 90,000 to 120,000 and they were solidly classified as a large Legion because that is what they put out just at Istvaan with confirmed reports of simultaneous activity elsewhere in the Eastern Fringe.

 

So it isn't impossible for them to be a "smaller" Legion and still be "substantially" sized. Especially since most of the Legions seem to be knocking around the upper tiers when the Heresy came about.

[b1soul]

Yeah, but as has been discussed in multiple places, the "requirements" for being a substantial Legion are iffy at best. You get 80,000-90,000 as "small-tier", 90,000 to 113,000 as mid-tier and then anything above that as large-tier, or "substantial". Heck, the Night Lords' numbers were put 90,000 to 120,000 and they were solidly classified as a large Legion because that is what they put out just at Istvaan with confirmed reports of simultaneous activity elsewhere in the Eastern Fringe.

 

So it isn't impossible for them to be a "smaller" Legion and still be "substantially" sized. Especially since most of the Legions seem to be knocking around the upper tiers when the Heresy came about.

 

Let's just say that erases all doubt that they had significant numerical superiority over the TSons. I've had arguments with SW fans who claim that the Wolves didn't

 

I'm guessing the Wolves are a standard to slightly larger than standard legion (~100,000)

 

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Yeah, but as has been discussed in multiple places, the "requirements" for being a substantial Legion are iffy at best. You get 80,000-90,000 as "small-tier", 90,000 to 113,000 as mid-tier and then anything above that as large-tier, or "substantial". Heck, the Night Lords' numbers were put 90,000 to 120,000 and they were solidly classified as a large Legion because that is what they put out just at Istvaan with confirmed reports of simultaneous activity elsewhere in the Eastern Fringe.

 

So it isn't impossible for them to be a "smaller" Legion and still be "substantially" sized. Especially since most of the Legions seem to be knocking around the upper tiers when the Heresy came about.

Let's just say that erases all doubt that they had significant numerical superiority over the TSons. I've had arguments with SW fans who claim that the Wolves didn't

 

I'm guessing the Wolves are a standard to slightly larger than standard legion (~100,000)

Smallest Legion is 80,000. Not much numerical superiority.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, if what Laurie Goulding has said is true, they will have a significant numbers advantage over the forces on Prospero, a whole Legion plus auxiliaries vs 10,000 plus auxiliaries.

 

Which in a way does support the "if Magnus had not hamstrung the Sons, they could have beaten the Wolves." argument, when you think about it that three years later, the fleet is still licking its wounds from "the few orbital bombardments" the Sons launched, and the three turning points in the fight where the Flesh-Change, the Titan dying and Russ seizing the sudden lack of cohesion. That "significant advantage of numbers" doesn't exactly mean a lot apparently.

[Conn Eremon]

Do you have the editor's post on this?

 

I ask because it seems weird to keep the XV Legion as being only 10k at Prospero when the whole Legion was at least 8 times the size.

 

Or is that line that FW put about the Raven Guard being the smallest of all the Legions at 80k being ignored?

[Kol Saresk]

 

I think it might get put that the survivors of Prospero numbered 1,240 minus those who will succumb to the flesh change, plus whatever garrisons and expedition fleets were spread throughout the Great Crusade. Which would make sense considering the Word Bearers got reprimanded for going slow, so it'd be obscene if an entire Legion just stopped altogether.

This. :)

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1272&view=findpost&p=22104059

 

I think you are thinking about it the wrong way. The entirety of the Sons was. Not at Prospero. Only ten thousand were. The rest of the Legion is out doing the Great Crusade. Remember, one Legion had already been reprimanded for being slow because of extracurricular activities. An entire Legion stopping and backtracking to their homeworld would have been obscene.

[Conn Eremon]

That thought had occurred to me, but I had honestly dismissed it in light of the fact that the whole point of the event was that the main bulk of the Legion was there, like with the Isstvan massacre or Monarchia. Can you imagine if we found out only an eighth of those Legions were at Isstvan?

 

But I do disagree on the obscenity part. It's been shown to be a far from unusual occurrence for the bulk of a Legion to gather together for something. World Eater musters, Ultramarines at Calth, Word Bearers after Monarchia. We've heard about the Raven Guard, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Blood Angels and White Scars doing it. Why wouldn't the Thousand Sons? They certainly had every reason to. I agree that it shouldn't be the whole Legion there, but certainly the lion's share.

[Kol Saresk]

Those were all special dispensations. The mustering at Calth was so an Expedition could be launched into nearby war territory. Monarchia was so the entire XVII would be in attendance for its reprimand. Every normal time we hear about it, the muster is in preparation for something. What would the Sons be mustering for? If A Thousand Sons is anything to go by, nothing. They just sat there. For a whole year IIRC. Just sitting there, performing outlawed experiments.

[Conn Eremon]

Is Nykea being forgotten? They were told to disband their Librarius. The Legion was the Librarius. The gathering at Prospero was over Nykea, whether to reinvent themselves or carry on into damnation. In either case, it makes the whole thing pointless if only a small percentage of the Legion gathered.

[Kol Saresk]

The Legion had the Lirabrius more heavily integrated but not everyone in the Legion was a psyker. Poor little Sobek was just "a dull flame".

 

And they did not go back to Prospero to decide whether or not they should disband. They went back to teach their remembrancers how to continue cultivating their powers while also trying to invent an excuse to justify the existence of the Librarius. What ende up happening is that they royally blew the Webway project.

[Conn Eremon]

I didn't say everyone was a battle-psyker. I said the Legion was the Librarius. It defined them, to the exclusion of all else.

 

And you are talking about the end result. What they did do. I was talking about why they gathered, not what they did once gathered. Why they gathered was to determine how Nykea would affect them. What they were ordered to do was nothing short of a reinvention of their self and identity. Whether or not they were going to go through with it, or whether or not they did go through with it, is irrelevant. That was the purpose of the gathering. Determine Nykea's impact. That is what is being turned pointless. That, in turn, makes the events and decisions that follow it and are based upon it pointless. If Nykea's impact was pointless, then what was the point in trying to overturn it?

[Scyld Fireblade]

 

 

My point about the wolves taking the dirty jobs did come from a large number of quotes around the place, right from the first book in the series. I didn't say other legions didn't take the dirty jobs as well, but the wolves did it more.

To clarify by dirty I do not mean hard, I mean the jobs no one else wanted to really do, the ones where there was a large amount of effort for very little reward. Other legions would look for the fights likely to bring them more renown or glory, whilst the wolves would look for the fights where they were needed. From reading more of scars (still not actually finished it) there seems to be an element of the scars doing the same

in Scars Bjorn actually states this as a reason for why the wolves are a smaller legion relative to the others, because they take the jobs which have higher casualty rates for whatever reason

FW HH3 actually says that the Wolves were a "substantial" legion, alongside the Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors. I believe it also mentions the White Scars as being one of the faster growing legions early in the great crusade.

 

Yeah, but as has been discussed in multiple places, the "requirements" for being a substantial Legion are iffy at best. You get 80,000-90,000 as "small-tier", 90,000 to 113,000 as mid-tier and then anything above that as large-tier, or "substantial". Heck, the Night Lords' numbers were put 90,000 to 120,000 and they were solidly classified as a large Legion because that is what they put out just at Istvaan with confirmed reports of simultaneous activity elsewhere in the Eastern Fringe.

 

So it isn't impossible for them to be a "smaller" Legion and still be "substantially" sized. Especially since most of the Legions seem to be knocking around the upper tiers when the Heresy came about.

The perspective on legion size has been shifted in book 3. The Ultras and WB are obscenely big; the SW, SoH, IW, and possibly the WS and AL are all "substantial" (the SoH are 170k and the IW are 180k)(AL might be as high as 180k).

 

 

Yeah, but as has been discussed in multiple places, the "requirements" for being a substantial Legion are iffy at best. You get 80,000-90,000 as "small-tier", 90,000 to 113,000 as mid-tier and then anything above that as large-tier, or "substantial". Heck, the Night Lords' numbers were put 90,000 to 120,000 and they were solidly classified as a large Legion because that is what they put out just at Istvaan with confirmed reports of simultaneous activity elsewhere in the Eastern Fringe.

 

So it isn't impossible for them to be a "smaller" Legion and still be "substantially" sized. Especially since most of the Legions seem to be knocking around the upper tiers when the Heresy came about.

 

Let's just say that erases all doubt that they had significant numerical superiority over the TSons. I've had arguments with SW fans who claim that the Wolves didn't

 

I'm guessing the Wolves are a standard to slightly larger than standard legion (~100,000)

 

The IF are 100k and are decribed as a smaller legion now. They just had an over sized fleet to legionaries ratio. The IH are now only barely average at 113k.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, but as has been discussed in multiple places, the "requirements" for being a substantial Legion are iffy at best. You get 80,000-90,000 as "small-tier", 90,000 to 113,000 as mid-tier and then anything above that as large-tier, or "substantial". Heck, the Night Lords' numbers were put 90,000 to 120,000 and they were solidly classified as a large Legion because that is what they put out just at Istvaan with confirmed reports of simultaneous activity elsewhere in the Eastern Fringe.

 

So it isn't impossible for them to be a "smaller" Legion and still be "substantially" sized. Especially since most of the Legions seem to be knocking around the upper tiers when the Heresy came about.

Let's just say that erases all doubt that they had significant numerical superiority over the TSons. I've had arguments with SW fans who claim that the Wolves didn't

 

I'm guessing the Wolves are a standard to slightly larger than standard legion (~100,000)

Smallest Legion is 80,000. Not much numerical superiority.

Since the TS will now have more than 80k and the majority were on Prospero, the SW will need alot more than 100k in order to noticeably outnumber the TS. 

 

To bring things back to the topic, the point is that the SW and WS share the fact that they are the largest of the loyalist legions, except for the Ultras of course.

[Kol Saresk]

I doubt the perspective shifted that much since the quote listed the Iron Hands as one of the "substantially" sized Legions, which seem to put "substantially" outside of the realm of "small-, mid- and large-tier". Especially since it still has to jive with Bjorn saying the Legion was "smaller than most", which can easily be done since most of the Legions seemed to have numbered in the 100,000 plus range.

[mc warhammer]

or when you consider that 60% of (current) humanity is asian. from a real world perspective, it's surprising more legions aren't dominated by an "asiatic" appearance.

[Tenebris]

That the Scars actually stood loyal to their friends, the Thousand Sons and did not betray them as those savages of the Space Wolves did. Death to Fenris!

[b1soul]

Smallest Legion is 80,000. Not much numerical superiority. Or is that line that FW put about the Raven Guard being the smallest of all the Legions at 80k being ignored?

 

You do realise that in Prospero Burns, it's mentioned that the SW were only able to overcome the TSons' psychic power with a large numerical advantage along with Sisters and Custodians?

 

...or are we just ignoring Prospero Burns now?  

 

* I'll have to double-check which character says it. I'll post a quote shortly.  

[Stonerhino]

It was the Human character that said it and is directly opposed to Magnus saying that the Wolves did not bring enough Sisters to take Tisca. They did have a numerical advantage, that we are yet to see the new numbers.

[Kol Saresk]

Not really an opposition though. Magnus is saying that they didn't bring enough Sisters to nullify the Sons' psychic powers while Hawser believes there are enough numbers to overwhelm the psychic abilities. Both are true statements. The Sons never would have won Prospero. True, they gave as good as they got right up until the Flesh Change, but they were still being pushed back the entire battle.

[Leif Bearclaw]

That thought had occurred to me, but I had honestly dismissed it in light of the fact that the whole point of the event was that the main bulk of the Legion was there, like with the Isstvan massacre or Monarchia. Can you imagine if we found out only an eighth of those Legions were at Isstvan?

 

But I do disagree on the obscenity part. It's been shown to be a far from unusual occurrence for the bulk of a Legion to gather together for something. World Eater musters, Ultramarines at Calth, Word Bearers after Monarchia. We've heard about the Raven Guard, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Blood Angels and White Scars doing it. Why wouldn't the Thousand Sons? They certainly had every reason to. I agree that it shouldn't be the whole Legion there, but certainly the lion's share.

So much this, if they retcon Prospero to only have 12% of the XV at Prospero, that's some grade A BS. I'll buy that some weren't (hell, Battle for the Abyss has one) but the vast majority of the Legion have to be on Prospero or it loses all its impact.

 

As far as the obscenity part, Magnus had just had a shock to his beliefs at Nikea, arguably comparable to Lorgar's chastising at Monarchia. After that, Lorgar took his Legion out of the crusade front line for a substantial time period (I want to say years, but don't a source to back it up). Is Magnus doping something similar after Nikea so impossible?

 

Edited for spelling.

[Stonerhino]

Not really an opposition though. Magnus is saying that they didn't bring enough Sisters to nullify the Sons' psychic powers while Hawser believes there are enough numbers to overwhelm the psychic abilities. Both are true statements. The Sons never would have won Prospero. True, they gave as good as they got right up until the Flesh Change, but they were still being pushed back the entire battle.

Both are true from the speaker's point of view.  However one is looking at the small scale of what is around him and the other is psychically looking at the whole battle.  So they are not mutually exclusive, one however holds much more weight.

 

Pn a side note I do like B1soul's idea of a falling out between teh Wolves and Scars after Nikea.  Maybe not a face to face but the Khan being angry at Russ' opposition to the Librarius program. 

[b1soul]

It was the Human character that said it and is directly opposed to Magnus saying that the Wolves did not bring enough Sisters to take Tisca. They did have a numerical advantage, that we are yet to see the new numbers.

 

Either way, the Sisters of Silence helped...a lot 

 

Valdor and his Custodians were on the field, as was Russ.

 

The Wolves had significant numerical superiority unless we're discounting Hawser's account as BS. I don't see why we should though as Hawser is the Wolve's skald. His knowledge of the relative numbers would be based on the Wolve's battle assessment.

 

Magnus sabotaged his own legion, lowering defences and even killing several of his own legionaries.

 

Replace the Wolves with any other legion, and the result would've been the same.   

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

That thought had occurred to me, but I had honestly dismissed it in light of the fact that the whole point of the event was that the main bulk of the Legion was there, like with the Isstvan massacre or Monarchia. Can you imagine if we found out only an eighth of those Legions were at Isstvan?

 

But I do disagree on the obscenity part. It's been shown to be a far from unusual occurrence for the bulk of a Legion to gather together for something. World Eater musters, Ultramarines at Calth, Word Bearers after Monarchia. We've heard about the Raven Guard, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Blood Angels and White Scars doing it. Why wouldn't the Thousand Sons? They certainly had every reason to. I agree that it shouldn't be the whole Legion there, but certainly the lion's share.

So much this, if they retcon Prospero to only have 12% of the XV at Prospero, that's some grade A BS. I'll buy that some weren't (hell, Battle for the Abyss has one) but the vast majority of the Legion have to be on Prospero or it loses all its impact.

 

As far as the obscenity part, Magnus had just had a shock to his beliefs at Nikea, arguably comparable to Lorgar's chastising at Monarchia. After that, Lorgar took his Legion out of the crusade front line for a substantial time period (I want to say years, but don't a source to back it up). Is Magnus doping something similar after Nikea so impossible?

 

Edited for spelling.

Lorgar took his Legion to the frontlines for two years before the Pilgrimage. After that, he remained at the frontlines for the next forty years.

 

Magnus went home. For a year. A whole year of not contributing to the Crusade at all. Lorgar was reprimanded because he wasn't contributing fast enough and was told that his reasoning for being slow was unjustifiable.

 

But Magnus stopped crusading. Period. No slowing down, but stopped. Its one thing for a Primarch to take a break. But for an entire Legion? To just stop? Not even muster for the next great campaign, but just stop.

 

No, I believe Magnus is too smart for that. He knows to keep up appearances. But also knows that paltry forces here and there aren't enough to add up unless there are so many heres and theres or there more than a few "large" Expedition Fleets out and about.

[Wade Garrett]

Is Nykea being forgotten? They were told to disband their Librarius. The Legion was the Librarius. The gathering at Prospero was over Nykea, whether to reinvent themselves or carry on into damnation. In either case, it makes the whole thing pointless if only a small percentage of the Legion gathered.

I have to agree with Cormac here. "We, a mere ten thousand Astartes, were kicking much butt despite facing ten times our number in Space Wolves and Custodians and Sisters of Silence"....no. Just no.

 

That would be as silly as a single Great Company managing to defeat the whole XV Legion.

;)

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Is Nykea being forgotten? They were told to disband their Librarius. The Legion was the Librarius. The gathering at Prospero was over Nykea, whether to reinvent themselves or carry on into damnation. In either case, it makes the whole thing pointless if only a small percentage of the Legion gathered.

I have to agree with Cormac here. "We, a mere ten thousand Astartes, were kicking much butt despite facing ten times our number in Space Wolves and Custodians and Sisters of Silence"....no. Just no.

 

That would be as silly as a single Great Company managing to defeat the whole XV Legion.

;)

Don't forget the psychically powered titan and the Prosperine Guard. It was "just" the Sons who were there, but the defenses of an entire Legion homeworld, plus all of their psychic powers.