What are the biggest differences between Wolves and Scars?

[SpecialIssue]

Frankly, I think 10,000 astartes battle-psykers is a significant force multiplier.

 

They can predict where and what the wolves are doing on a strategic down to a personal scale. They can reach behind walls and through buildings with their minds to rip their foes apart psychically and physically. They can open freaking gateways to other dimensions, summon and shoot projectiles that aren't constrained by the laws of physics, project shields over their formations/personnel to protect from weapons fire, enhance their physical abilities beyond that of an astartes.

 

The mere usage of these powers bends reality around them, makes mortals physically sick and triggers insanity, while affecting the combat ability of even the sturdy (yet still real) astartes physiology and psychology, with the very presence of 'Unreal'. 

 

The power of all this is only constrained by the wielder's willpower and control, and the presence of other counter-psykers or psychic pariahs/blanks. (I don't believe in the effects of Deny the Witch being possible, as it kind of kills the danger and power that psykers represent)

 

I fully think that 10,000 1k Sons would have been to battle a significantly larger force, which also perfectly illustrates the debate surrounding Nykea. Psykers are bloody powerful - maybe even powerful enough that the risk was greater than the reward.

[captain Angel]

One has to remember, in standard military strategy, to take a fortified location, you should have a 1-3 advantage, which becomes a 1-10 advantage to assault a city. With phy powers, the 1000 sons would have no problem.

[b1soul]

Is Nykea being forgotten? They were told to disband their Librarius. The Legion was the Librarius. The gathering at Prospero was over Nykea, whether to reinvent themselves or carry on into damnation. In either case, it makes the whole thing pointless if only a small percentage of the Legion gathered.

I have to agree with Cormac here. "We, a mere ten thousand Astartes, were kicking much butt despite facing ten times our number in Space Wolves and Custodians and Sisters of Silence"....no. Just no.

That would be as silly as a single Great Company managing to defeat the whole XV Legion.

What? They obviously lost...but they put up a damned good fight in large part because of their psychic powers.

If by "kicked butt", you mean "put up a good fight", then both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns would agree with you...and yes, they put up a good fight despite being (1) outnumbered, (2) facing Valdor and his Custodians, (3) Russ, and (4) being sabotaged by Magnus, their own primarch

Think about if it were 10,000 "regular" marines instead of psychic Thousand Sons. It would've been a curb stomp.

I think you guys have to re-read Prospero Burns:

The full force of the Sixth was something I did not believe needed strengthening. There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can out-match a warrior of the Rout, one to one, and we held a significant numerical superiority. Much is said of Prospero’s noble Spireguard, and other auxiliary contingents, but the only true consideration was Astartes numbers, and Magnus the Red’s Legion was small compared to the Vlka Fenryka.However, there was an ugly mood of caution amongst the Sixth. The Crimson King’s edge derived from maleficarum, the very root of the entire dispute. Now it came down to a bare fight, he would show his sharpest claws. No matter that we had ten or a hundred or even a thousand times his Thousand Sons, magic could level any fight. All the pack leaders agreed, loath as they were to admit it out loud, that the Silent Sisterhood might make the difference between triumph or destruction. Only they, Allfather willing, might cancel out or dilute the sorcery of Magnus and his disciple-sons.

. . .

The line faltered in both directions as it compensated for the force of collision. Then it seemed as though the carnivorous lust of the Vlka Fenryka would entirely overwhelm the warriors of the Fifteenth.That was the moment we started to die, my brothers. That is the moment we started to die in any significant numbers. The Thousand Sons unleashed their maleficarum, the poison in their veins.Electrical discharge leapt from staffs and fingertips. Radiant filth, like the unlight of the warp, spilled out of eye slits and speared from warding palms. Wolves were torn apart by the touch of their battle magic, or thrown back, mangled and scorched. Some were petrified into smouldering attitudes of excruciation. Their weapons charged with sorcerous power, fuming with helsmoke and sick light, the accursed traitors launched into our assaulting ranks.Threads were cut in swathes, like scythed corn. Threads were more than cut. Some were torched back along their lengths, so that men did not merely die; the lives they had led before their deaths burned away into forgetfulness. Some were left as smears of blood, or haphazardly butchered carcasses. Some were pulled limb from limb by invisible wights and the sprites of the air. Some were left as nothing but heaped white bones and scads of blackened armour.Oje died there, turned inside out by a warlock’s gesture. I saw Svessl too, split in two by an invisible blade. His blood came out of him with great, explosive force, like liquid from a pressurised cask. Hekken: cooked inside his armour. Orm Ormssen: exsanguinated. Vossul: blinded and pulped. Lycas Snowpelt: gutted and decapitated. Bane Fel: engulfed in a cold blue fire that consumed him but would not go out. Sfen Saarl: withered to a vile powder. Aerdor: transmogrified into a twisted, steaming, inhuman stump.Too many. Too many! The accounts needed for all their sendings off would last for months. The kindling needed for all their funeral pyres would exhaust an entire great year’s supply.I felt vindication, for the maleficarum of the Thousand Sons was everything it had been accused of being. Our prosecution was legitimised. But I felt fear, for I did not believe we would win or even live. For all our fury, for all our might as warriors, we would be exterminated, proving that the Thousand Sons of Prospero were monsters and warlocks.I did the one thing a skjald should not do. I looked away. I averted my gaze so that I did not have to witness the fall of the Rout.I missed, therefore, the beginning of salvation. I missed the first glimpse of the Null Maidens pouring down the black heaps of burning rubble into the fight. Their blades were bright. Pulsing beads and beams of energy spat from their weapons. They uttered no war cry or challenge.The blankness of them washed across the line. The rank clouds of maleficarum burned away, or blew aside like fog in a night wind. The warlocks of the Fifteenth choked on the abominable words of their conjurations. They gagged on the pestilential utterance of their spells. I saw them stagger back, clutching at their throats, pawing at the neck seals of their helms. I saw blood spurting and leaking through visor slits in stringy ropes. I saw arcane gestures and motions seize up and cripple hands into palsied, arthritic claws.Seconds after they had stunned and disempowered the traitors of the Fifteenth with their insidious silence, the sister-warriors struck. They surged through the recoiled mass of Wolves and began to hack and slice with their longswords. Their assault was an odd mixture of frenzy and elegance. Every stroke, every cut, every turn was the skilled action of an elite swordfighter, yet it was driven along by a berserk mania, a hysterical orgy of wounding and killing.The Wolves did not hold back either. Released from the hammerblow onslaught of magic, they set in beside the Sisters, matching them blow for blow and kill for kill. The war was physical again. It was kinetic, concussive, visceral and explosive. Blood lay like dew upon what was left of the grass, and hung in the air like a mist.Custodes had appeared with the Null Maidens. Their golden forms gleamed amid the swirling scrum of fighting bodies. Released into battle from their normal, solemn duties, they were as unrestrained as any Wolf.

[Leif Bearclaw]

But 'standard military strategy' also doesn't involve firing men at a city from orbit, armoured infantry that can run through walls, or carrying swords into battle, let alone psychic powers. Applying real life logic to 40k just plain doesn't work. Where are you getting a rerquired 10:1 advantage for assaulting a city? The couple of rl city fights I quickly Googled had a little over 3:1 in the attackers favour maximum.

 

Frankly, I think 10,000 astartes battle-psykers is a significant force multiplier.

 

They can predict where and what the wolves are doing on a strategic down to a personal scale. They can reach behind walls and through buildings with their minds to rip their foes apart psychically and physically. They can open freaking gateways to other dimensions, summon and shoot projectiles that aren't constrained by the laws of physics, project shields over their formations/personnel to protect from weapons fire, enhance their physical abilities beyond that of an astartes.

 

The mere usage of these powers bends reality around them, makes mortals physically sick and triggers insanity, while affecting the combat ability of even the sturdy (yet still real) astartes physiology and psychology, with the very presence of 'Unreal'. 

 

The power of all this is only constrained by the wielder's willpower and control, and the presence of other counter-psykers or psychic pariahs/blanks. (I don't believe in the effects of Deny the Witch being possible, as it kind of kills the danger and power that psykers represent)

 

I fully think that 10,000 1k Sons would have been to battle a significantly larger force, which also perfectly illustrates the debate surrounding Nykea. Psykers are bloody powerful - maybe even powerful enough that the risk was greater than the reward.

 

Except that the entire Legion weren't Battle Psykers. That's the point of the Rubric, the majority of the Legion, with little/no psychic potential, were turned into husks. A Thousand Sons shows us the devastation that the top handful of Sons commanders could do, every line Legionary wasn't throwing the mind bullets around like Hathor Maat and Phosis T'Kar.

 

If they do put 10k sons vs the entire Wolves (at the 100k-150k 'substantial' mark) in Inferno, then the VI should come through almost intact, certainly better off than any of the original 4 Traitor Legions after Istvaan III, not as knackered as Scars apparently suggests they were (which is fine if the vast majority (75k+ if the Sons are a little over 80k)of the Sons are at Prospero.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

Smallest Legion is 80,000. Not much numerical superiority. Or is that line that FW put about the Raven Guard being the smallest of all the Legions at 80k being ignored?

You do realise that in Prospero Burns, it's mentioned that the SW were only able to overcome the TSons' psychic power with a large numerical advantage along with Sisters and Custodians?

 

...or are we just ignoring Prospero Burns now?

 

* I'll have to double-check which character says it. I'll post a quote shortly.

...You do realize that all I was doing was comparing 100k to 80k, right?

[SpecialIssue]

Except that the entire Legion weren't Battle Psykers. That's the point of the Rubric, the majority of the Legion, with little/no psychic potential, were turned into husks. A Thousand Sons shows us the devastation that the top handful of Sons commanders could do, every line Legionary wasn't throwing the mind bullets around like Hathor Maat and Phosis T'Kar.

 

Fair enough, the entire legion weren't battle psykers - but don't you think that the majority of those pulled back from the GC to Prospero after Nykea would have been the battle-psyker portion of the Legion?

 

That must be terrifying -  a whole planet garrisoned by astartes psykers.

[Komrk]

Is Nykea being forgotten? They were told to disband their Librarius. The Legion was the Librarius. The gathering at Prospero was over Nykea, whether to reinvent themselves or carry on into damnation. In either case, it makes the whole thing pointless if only a small percentage of the Legion gathered.

I have to agree with Cormac here. "We, a mere ten thousand Astartes, were kicking much butt despite facing ten times our number in Space Wolves and Custodians and Sisters of Silence"....no. Just no.

That would be as silly as a single Great Company managing to defeat the whole XV Legion.

What? They obviously lost...but they put up a damned good fight in large part because of their psychic powers.

If by "kicked butt", you mean "put up a good fight", then both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns would agree with you...and yes, they put up a good fight despite being (1) outnumbered, (2) facing Valdor and his Custodians, (3) Russ, and (4) being sabotaged by Magnus, their own primarch

Think about if it were 10,000 "regular" marines instead of psychic Thousand Sons. It would've been a curb stomp.

I think you guys have to re-read Prospero Burns: *snip*

So much bolding out of context to prove a point here.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Except that the entire Legion weren't Battle Psykers. That's the point of the Rubric, the majority of the Legion, with little/no psychic potential, were turned into husks. A Thousand Sons shows us the devastation that the top handful of Sons commanders could do, every line Legionary wasn't throwing the mind bullets around like Hathor Maat and Phosis T'Kar.

 

Fair enough, the entire legion weren't battle psykers - but don't you think that the majority of those pulled back from the GC to Prospero after Nykea would have been the battle-psyker portion of the Legion?

 

That must be terrifying -  a whole planet garrisoned by astartes psykers.

Indeed, I'm maintaining that the majority of the Legion were on Prospero, so of course they would have a most (though not all, if we accept the Battle for the Abyss as evidence) of their battle psykers on the planet. I simply think that not scaling up the Sons at Prospero in line with the general increase in Legion size by claiming 'lots of them weren't there' is BS, and if they do go down that route, it should be represented by substantially lighter Wolf Casualties than previous portrayals have suggested.

 

I agree, Prospero was a scary proposition to assault, hence why the Silent Sisters accompanied the Wolves.

[Komrk]

 

 

Except that the entire Legion weren't Battle Psykers. That's the point of the Rubric, the majority of the Legion, with little/no psychic potential, were turned into husks. A Thousand Sons shows us the devastation that the top handful of Sons commanders could do, every line Legionary wasn't throwing the mind bullets around like Hathor Maat and Phosis T'Kar.

 

Fair enough, the entire legion weren't battle psykers - but don't you think that the majority of those pulled back from the GC to Prospero after Nykea would have been the battle-psyker portion of the Legion?

 

That must be terrifying -  a whole planet garrisoned by astartes psykers.

Indeed, I'm maintaining that the majority of the Legion were on Prospero, so of course they would have a most (though not all, if we accept the Battle for the Abyss as evidence) of their battle psykers on the planet. I simply think that not scaling up the Sons at Prospero in line with the general increase in Legion size by claiming 'lots of them weren't there' is BS, and if they do go down that route, it should be represented by substantially lighter Wolf Casualties than previous portrayals have suggested.

 

I agree, Prospero was a scary proposition to assault, hence why the Silent Sisters accompanied the Wolves.

 

Also, I'm fairly certain that there was a short story about a Thousand Sons captain who was with the fleet that fled the system and then came back not sure if any of the legion was still alive.

[Sevatar]

I am with Leif Bearclaw here. If they inflict heavy casualties on the Wolves they should scale up the the Thousand Sons numbers accordingly. Otherwise it is rather silly, in my opinion.

[Scyld Fireblade]

That the Scars actually stood loyal to their friends, the Thousand Sons and did not betray them as those savages of the Space Wolves did. Death to Fenris!

Alpha Legion propaganda!

[Wade Garrett]

Alpha Legion propaganda?

 

Wait....

 

"There are no Wolves on Fenris..."

 

God Emperor on Earth, I know the secret!

 

The third option...the Sigma to the Alpha and Omega...the Wolves of Fenris are....

 

*Transmission disconnected at source*

[Scyld Fireblade]

I am with Leif Bearclaw here. If they inflict heavy casualties on the Wolves they should scale up the the Thousand Sons numbers accordingly. Otherwise it is rather silly, in my opinion.

Here is a guess a possible numbers. I stress that this is a guess. The SW at 150-160k vs the TS at 80-90k. At the battle, 140k SW and 75k TS. Magnus and Tzeentch teleport less than 5k TS away at the end. The SW suffer 50k losses. 

 

Before any complaints. The SOS helped ALOT. "There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can out-match a warrior of the Rout one to one" -Prospero Burns. Russ shattered the TS line including some of their most powerful psychers and killed Magnus' physical form. Magus sat most of the battle out. When the titan went down it killed many TS and broke their line again. The flesh change and the TS' power back firing.

 

And remember that still leaves the Wolves losing 25-30% of their strength. I think the only other loyalists who could have matched the Wolves' feat and endured 50k losses were the Ultras and Scars.

[Scyld Fireblade]

Alpha Legion propaganda?

 

Wait....

 

"There are no Wolves on Fenris..."

 

God Emperor on Earth, I know the secret!

 

The third option...the Sigma to the Alpha and Omega...the Wolves of Fenris are....

 

*Transmission disconnected at source*

The Wolves, Alphas, and Salamanders were all created separately and secretly from the other legions.

[b1soul]

...You do realize that all I was doing was comparing 100k to 80k, right?

 

 

...but we know that there were 10,000 marines on Prospero. According to Black Library, everything is canon and nothing is canon. I'm not sure if you can really say that the 10,000 figure has been retconned if the policy is "everything and nothing".

 

Secondly, how do you know the Wolves were only 100,000? In Prospero Burns, it says  the TSons are a small legion compared to the Wolves and that the TSons "magic" is a huge equaliser. Read the quote I've provided above. Would the Wolves say "the TSons are a small legion compared to us" if the difference were only 20%? I mean, you'd think that for the TSons' magic to be a huge equaliser, the TSons' numerical disadvantage would have to be pretty glaring.

 

I am with Leif Bearclaw here. If they inflict heavy casualties on the Wolves they should scale up the the Thousand Sons numbers accordingly.

Otherwise it is rather silly, in my opinion.

 

They don't have to scale up the TSons' numbers. The TSons' phychic powers are a huge equaliser:

 

 

“Hathor Maat!” ordered Magnus. “Take them down!”The captain of the 3rd Fellowship hammered a fist into his chest and directed his ferocious will to aiding his battle-brothers. Hastar stood next to him as his fellow warriors of the Pavoni unleashed the full force of their bio-manipulation.Unseen currents of aetheric energy sliced into the Space Wolves, blocking neural transmitters, redirecting electrical impulses in the brain and rapidly deoxygenating the blood flowing from their lungs. The effect was instantaneous.The Space Wolves’ push faltered as their bodies rebelled. Limbs spasmed, heart muscles fibrillated and warriors lost all physical autonomy, jerking like the maddened dolls of a demented puppeteer. Ahriman watched as Amlodhi Skarssen dropped to one knee, his shield falling from nerveless fingers as his body refused to answer his demands.The Wolf Lord’s teeth gnashed together, bloody foam spilling from the mouthpiece of his mask. Space Wolves thrashed in bone-cracking agony as their nervous systems were flooded with conflicting neural impulses. Ahriman despaired of the relish Hathor Maat took in this wanton display of power. The Pavoni had a reputation for venality and spite, but this was sickening.

 

 

Maybe not every single TSon is a powerful battle pysker, but enough of them are

 

 

So much bolding out of context to prove a point here.

 

I find it hilarious that you accuse me of "bolding out of context"...and yet you've contributed absolutely nothing of substance to this discussion

 

If you think you can refute me, do it. Explain how I'm wrong. Don't just snipe at me with meaningless little comments from the sidelines.

[Conn Eremon]

B1soul: The point you are making is not against any argument I was making. At the time I said that original statement about numerical superiority, the conversation in this thread was assuming maybe 100k vs at least 80k. All I was saying was that this is not a very large difference in numbers. The conversation shifted the Thousand Sons back to 10k afterwards when Kol brought up Laurie Goulding's post on the matter.

[Leif Bearclaw]

We also 'know' that 2000 Luna Wolves survived the Virus Bombing of Istvaan III. Yet Betrayal has 20,000 or so survive. It's the upscaling of the Legions that occurred in the middle of the series that has caused this problem. If they stick with 10k Sons on Prospero, either 80k being the samllest Legion size is wrong, or most of the Son's strength wasn't on Prospero. The former is easy to explain, the 80k=smallest figure was wrong, just like thge old Legion sizes. If we assume the later that begs the question what the other 70k or so did for the rest of the Heresy, and why have we never heard of them before.

 

Prospero leaves the Sons shattered. If only 12% of the Legion is on Prospero, then the Legion is in better shape than the SoH, EC, WE and DG after the 2 Istvaan battles. Most of their Legion is intact and their Primarch is still 'alive', there's no reason why they don't play a major role in the Heresy, as they're firmly in Tzeentch's camp after Magnus saves them.

 

The only really sensible option imo, is to scale the Sons up with everyone else, the Wolves still take noteworthy losses, yet come through combat effective, the Sons are massacred and the Legion shattered comparable to the Istvaan V victims. As has always been the been the case, but now with more corpses on both sides.

[b1soul]

If they stick with 10k Sons on Prospero, either 80k being the samllest Legion size is wrong, or most of the Son's strength wasn't on Prospero.

 

I think A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns makes it abundantly clear just how effective the TSon's psychic powers are in combat. Granted, not every TSon is a master psyker, but they have the highest proportion of psykers out of all the legions. Their psyker presence is a major factor on the battlefield.

 

We know the TSons lost. That they inflicted heavy casualties on the Wolves...but that overall, the Wolves were nowhere near to extinction while the TSons were almost wiped out. In light of the legion's insanely powerful psychic powers, its role as the defending force, and its ultimate defeat, I don't think 10,000 TSons vs. 100,000 Wolves is silly.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

 

Except that the entire Legion weren't Battle Psykers. That's the point of the Rubric, the majority of the Legion, with little/no psychic potential, were turned into husks. A Thousand Sons shows us the devastation that the top handful of Sons commanders could do, every line Legionary wasn't throwing the mind bullets around like Hathor Maat and Phosis T'Kar.

Fair enough, the entire legion weren't battle psykers - but don't you think that the majority of those pulled back from the GC to Prospero after Nykea would have been the battle-psyker portion of the Legion?

 

That must be terrifying - a whole planet garrisoned by astartes psykers.

Indeed, I'm maintaining that the majority of the Legion were on Prospero, so of course they would have a most (though not all, if we accept the Battle for the Abyss as evidence) of their battle psykers on the planet. I simply think that not scaling up the Sons at Prospero in line with the general increase in Legion size by claiming 'lots of them weren't there' is BS, and if they do go down that route, it should be represented by substantially lighter Wolf Casualties than previous portrayals have suggested.

 

I agree, Prospero was a scary proposition to assault, hence why the Silent Sisters accompanied the Wolves.

Also, I'm fairly certain that there was a short story about a Thousand Sons captain who was with the fleet that fled the system and then came back not sure if any of the legion was still alive.

There was a story. Of a single ship from that fleet returning to see what had happened to Prospero. The rest of the fleet is, perish the thought, still out there. Somewhere.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except that the entire Legion weren't Battle Psykers. That's the point of the Rubric, the majority of the Legion, with little/no psychic potential, were turned into husks. A Thousand Sons shows us the devastation that the top handful of Sons commanders could do, every line Legionary wasn't throwing the mind bullets around like Hathor Maat and Phosis T'Kar.

Fair enough, the entire legion weren't battle psykers - but don't you think that the majority of those pulled back from the GC to Prospero after Nykea would have been the battle-psyker portion of the Legion?

 

That must be terrifying - a whole planet garrisoned by astartes psykers.

Indeed, I'm maintaining that the majority of the Legion were on Prospero, so of course they would have a most (though not all, if we accept the Battle for the Abyss as evidence) of their battle psykers on the planet. I simply think that not scaling up the Sons at Prospero in line with the general increase in Legion size by claiming 'lots of them weren't there' is BS, and if they do go down that route, it should be represented by substantially lighter Wolf Casualties than previous portrayals have suggested.

 

I agree, Prospero was a scary proposition to assault, hence why the Silent Sisters accompanied the Wolves.

Also, I'm fairly certain that there was a short story about a Thousand Sons captain who was with the fleet that fled the system and then came back not sure if any of the legion was still alive.

There was a story. Of a single ship from that fleet returning to see what had happened to Prospero. The rest of the fleet is, perish the thought, still out there. Somewhere.

And that's not terrible? The fact that a single fleet of a few Thousand Sons is now 90% of the whole Legion? The fact that 90% were just not there, and are still out and about? This gets no outrage, no reaction?

 

It is getting one from me. I can't imagine if the same thing happened to the Iron Hands, Salamanders or Raven Guard.

[Honda]

DING DING DING DING DING...

 

Ok, gentlemen, the round is over and let's move to our respective corners. There is some very good dialogue going on, though it does not have anything to do with the OP. So, let's take a breath, get a drink of water and take pause.

 

When the bell rings and you come out of your corners, remember everyone here is a brother/sister.

 

DING!

[Vesper]

100k attacking 10k makes for a decent ratio. Given the fact that the fall of Prospero is more or less a reenactment of the fall of Constantinople, I think the low number of defenders helps make the battle a more tragic one for the TS, just like it was for the byzantines.

As the op said, psychic might is a huge game changer. But even without the powers of the Warp, the fall of Constantinople ended up with much more attackers dead than defenders. That's the whole point of defending, in fact.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

If they stick with 10k Sons on Prospero, either 80k being the samllest Legion size is wrong, or most of the Son's strength wasn't on Prospero.

 

I think A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns makes it abundantly clear just how effective the TSon's psychic powers are in combat. Granted, not every TSon is a master psyker, but they have the highest proportion of psykers out of all the legions. Their psyker presence is a major factor on the battlefield.

 

We know the TSons lost. That they inflicted heavy casualties on the Wolves...but that overall, the Wolves were nowhere near to extinction while the TSons were almost wiped out. In light of the legion's insanely powerful psychic powers, its role as the defending force, and its ultimate defeat, I don't think 10,000 TSons vs. 100,000 Wolves is silly.

It is somewhat nonsensical imo. For two reasons. Firstly it is a bit strange that the Sons would be the only Legion that don't get a bump in size. Secondly, ATS/PB was written before the jump in Legion size. Therefore I think it's reasonable to assume McNeill and Abnett wrote them assuming a VI Legion substantially smaller then 100-180k (taking the absolute potential smallest-largest from what I've read). If the losses the Wolves take in the novels come across as substantial, but not Legion ending with the smaller sizes, they start to shrink to insignificance when the number of Wolves is increased 2-4 fold. Then you have to account for the Sisters and Custodes, while the psychic shutdown didn't always work, it did play a major role in neutralising the Sons advantage. If the numbers are closer to equal, then it makes more sense as a tough fight. Otherwise once the big psychic artillery start to be neutralised, then the Sons lose their only edge, and fold in short order.

 

Plus, it's all a matter of interpretation. The passages you've quoted in this thread don't mention specifics, so the Sons commanders could be laying scores of Wolves to waste at once, or a mere half dozen strong combat squad (somewhere between the two would be my personal view). If the very best of the Sons are only laying waste to a squad or two, is that really any different from a senior captain (Khârn, Lucius, Abaddon, Amit etc.) carving through the enemy with a blade? Again I'm not saying the Sons weren't powerful (that whole Titan thing for example), but I feel you may be overestimating their impact.

 

On top of that, the novels are presented in a present tense, personal way, which is good, because it carries the story, however, providing an eye witness account of local events makes the events seem worse than they are. Which is why the FW books are good, the novels can be more like Soldiers diaries, while the FW stuff is closer to after action reports once the butcher's bill is counted, which is often surprisingly light. For a real world example, by all accounts the first day of the Somme in July 1916 was horrific. However, many accounts I've heard give the impression that almost everyone involved in the attacks died, an understandable impression given the carnage and situation on the ground. However, the cold numbers tell a different story, with the British divisions 'only' suffering approximately 22% casualties, of which 7% were killed. I found these numbers rather surprising, and I don't see why a similar principle couldn't apply here.

 

To try to bring this back slightly on topic (how did this turn into a VI vs XV thread anyway?). For all we know, the Scars and Wolves well may end up as the buddies they used to be by the end of the Heresy/Scouring. Apparently Russ is going through something of a mental crisis about whose orders can be trusted, and who knows what effect the Heresy and defending the Palace will have on the Scars and the Khan.

[Hyaenidae]

Since it seems nobody saw this, let me post it again....

 

DING DING DING DING DING...

 

Ok, gentlemen, the round is over and let's move to our respective corners. There is some very good dialogue going on, though it does not have anything to do with the OP. So, let's take a breath, get a drink of water and take pause.

 

When the bell rings and you come out of your corners, remember everyone here is a brother/sister.

 

DING!

 

 

In less than twenty minutes, this thread is heading in the wrong direction again. Stay within the boundries of the OP's question, or start a seperate thread about the Sons and the Wolves. Next time this thread steps out of line, it dies.

 

Back on topic.

[Stonerhino]

Magnus, was accepting his punishment by letting the Wolves in.  I can see him sending out a significant portion of his Legion away with the fleet.  However the fall of Tisca becomes nearly pointless if the bulk of the Legion was not there.