What are the biggest differences between Wolves and Scars?

[Vesper]

Magnus, was accepting his punishment by letting the Wolves in.  I can see him sending out a significant portion of his Legion away with the fleet.  However the fall of Tisca becomes nearly pointless if the bulk of the Legion was not there.

Pointless is a strong word that eludes pretty much everything about what a legion homeworld is.

 

On topic, I really like the White Scars because of their global identity. And I just love their Primarch. He's independant, doesn't trust easily, and got strong feelings of brotherhood with some traitor Primarchs. Makes for a great character.

I've always felt the loyalists got rid of their ties with the traitors too easily. See the burning of Prospero, for example. Leman does look like he's floating alone in the void, because he doesn't seem to get any issue with doing what he does. He looks like a switch that gets flipped.

I feel that Scars managed to handle Jaghatai much better. And that makes me like the White Scars a lot, actually.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I think I agree and disagree with that Vesper. Russ in ATS/PB is odd, I got the impression from them that he wasn't particularly close to any of his brother, unlike say Fulgrim and Ferrus, or Horus and Sanguinius, yet before the hostilities at Prospero, despite Horus' orders to the contrary, he really doesn't want to have to kill Magnus. Unfortunately, everything goes wrong, and Russ, though reluctant, does not hesitate, becuase that's what he does.

 

The problem with close ties between the Loyal and Traitor Primarchs is that many of the Traitors (and a couple of loyalists) did not play well with others, or they gravitated towards their brother with comparable baggage. Angron, Mortarion and Curze pretty much kept to the company of other Traitors, no one liked Pertuarbo, Lorgar is the guy who ruined it all in the first place and Alpharius is Alpharius. That  only leaves Magnus, Horus and Fulgrim to have close ties with their loyal brothers. Fulgrim's could have been handled a lot better imo, and I assume the pathos of Horus/Sanguinius' lost friendship is being saved for the final showdown. Now if they've put closer ties between the Khan and Magnus, that's pretty cool, and Jaghatai and his Legion do offer some good opportunities to explore this further, as they're less firmly defined than some other loyalist Legions. I really need to catch up with the HH series....

[Vesper]

Jaghatai also has a special bond with Mortarion (which is great too). And you forgot that Horus liked pretty much everyone and that pretty much everyone loved him.

On the Leman topic, I can't help but think his portrayal so far has been quite weak.

I feel there are many lost opportunities to make the Primarchs actually sound like brothers instead of simply saying they are.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Aye true enough, which is why I think an IH book before Fulgrim would've been good, as it is Ferrus' rage at betrayal was OK, but it lacked weight because the reader had no real sense of what had been lost.

 

I hope that as the series progresses we'll get an evening out of Primarch coverage. Part of the problem with some of them,  like Russ, may well be that they haven't been in it enough. It seems (bear in mind I'm horribly behind in the novels right now), that some (Angron, Horus, Gulliman) have strong portrayals thanks to exposure time, whereas others (Sanguinius, Russ. Ferrus) haven't really had their time in the sun.

 

 

Interesting about the Khan and Mortarion, wouldn't have bet on that one, especially given their vastly different opinions on the Librarian issue.

[Scyld Fireblade]

 

 

 

 

 

Except that the entire Legion weren't Battle Psykers. That's the point of the Rubric, the majority of the Legion, with little/no psychic potential, were turned into husks. A Thousand Sons shows us the devastation that the top handful of Sons commanders could do, every line Legionary wasn't throwing the mind bullets around like Hathor Maat and Phosis T'Kar.

Fair enough, the entire legion weren't battle psykers - but don't you think that the majority of those pulled back from the GC to Prospero after Nykea would have been the battle-psyker portion of the Legion?

 

That must be terrifying - a whole planet garrisoned by astartes psykers.

Indeed, I'm maintaining that the majority of the Legion were on Prospero, so of course they would have a most (though not all, if we accept the Battle for the Abyss as evidence) of their battle psykers on the planet. I simply think that not scaling up the Sons at Prospero in line with the general increase in Legion size by claiming 'lots of them weren't there' is BS, and if they do go down that route, it should be represented by substantially lighter Wolf Casualties than previous portrayals have suggested.

 

I agree, Prospero was a scary proposition to assault, hence why the Silent Sisters accompanied the Wolves.

Also, I'm fairly certain that there was a short story about a Thousand Sons captain who was with the fleet that fled the system and then came back not sure if any of the legion was still alive.

There was a story. Of a single ship from that fleet returning to see what had happened to Prospero. The rest of the fleet is, perish the thought, still out there. Somewhere.

Not after the Battle of the Fang.

 

Are there any stories where the Scars fight the TS?

[Sevatar]

William King novels. Fang. Prospero.

[Conn Eremon]

William King novels. Fang. Prospero.

If this was in response to Scyld, he asked about Scars vs. Sons, not the Wolves.

[Scyld Fireblade]

William King novels. Fang. Prospero.

 

 

 

William King novels. Fang. Prospero.

If this was in response to Scyld, he asked about Scars vs. Sons, not the Wolves.

Thanks for the effort Sevatar, but Cormac is right.

[Tenebris]

The White Scars smell better... 

[Relict]

Regarding the Space Wolves and the White Scars, I suggest looking past the surface similarities (Western barbarians vs. Eastern barbarians). 

 

The Wolves are loyal in that they do whatever they are asked to do without question, as long as the order come from the Emperor. We have seen this in the case of the (possible) purging of the II and XI Legions, the Sanction of Magnus, and the dispatching of a pack to the side of each Loyalist Primarch (as seen in the Unremembered Empire) to watch them for signs of heresy and to enact sanction if necessary. 

 

The Scars are loyal in the loosest sense. They are wild and unpredictable, preferring to keep to the fringes of the Great Crusade. Furthermore, they weigh their orders rather than obey blindly, as seen in Scars when they receive conflicting orders from both sides of the Heresy, with the Khan ultimately choosing a third option to go to Prospero. 

 

I think Khârn summed it up the best in the opening pages of Betrayer: The Wolves come when they are called. For all their might, they are collared by the will of the Emperor. 

[b1soul]

The White Scars smell better... 

 

White Scars are based on Mongols. Mongols smelled real bad. Never bathed, rubbed mutton fat onto their skin and then put on their clothes. Wolves probably smell like wet dogs (or wet leopards)

 

I think an interesting question would be...what does the role of "Warhawk" entail? What is the purpose of the Khan?

[Conn Eremon]

What does the nickname of "Warhawk" have to do with roles?

[b1soul]

What does the nickname of "Warhawk" have to do with roles?

 

Have you read Scars? It's not just a meaningless little nickname, it describes his role. Russ is supposed to be the "Executioner" (not that I'm fond of the idea). The Khan is the Warhawk.

 

 

None of us did [knew the Khan well],’ said Malcador. ‘That was the point of him – in any system there needs to be uncertainty.’ He smiled at Dorn. ‘You, my friend, were an exercise in the opposite. No wonder you two did not understand one another.’

. . .

‘Too late for regrets,’ said Malcador wearily. ‘We must summon him. Russ and the Khan standing here beside you, Rogal, would make me sleep easier. The Executioner and the Warhawk – that would give even Horus pause.’

. . .

Yesugei pondered that. ‘You sound like a zadyin arga [Chogorian shaman/psyker].’The Khan laughed. It was a clear sound – harder, perhaps, than before, but free of doubt.‘I am no such thing,’ he said, turning back to the stars. The void gazed back at him, as if beckoning him into its war-torn embrace. ‘I am the Warhawk, the berkut, the wide-ranger. I am the spirit of wildfire, the uncatchable, the master of the ice-blue heavens. I have travelled further than any of my brothers, and none of them know my mind.’He felt a stirring of savagery as he spoke, the kindling of an old joy, one that Chondax had ravaged but not quite extinguished.‘What they say of hawks is also true,’ he said, his eyes glinting. ‘You have said it yourself, many times – we never forget the shape of the hunt. In the end we always come back to the hand that loosed us.’

 

[Kol Saresk]

What does the nickname of "Warhawk" have to do with roles?

Apparently everything. I don't know. Personally I put as much as stock in "the Primarchs had roles" as most people put into Bill Clinton's cries of fidelity.

 

Seriously, "the Wolves are the Executioners." That's why the War Hounds were told to execute the Renegade Thunder Warriors, something no Astartes had ever done, or has done since.

 

And when the terrors of Ild Night made a reappearance on Terra, was it the Wolves who were called? Nope. It was a contingent of 500 Night Lords who were chosen to execute a city of millions.

 

The Wolves are the last in line and only by virtue of being controllable after their Primarch was found. When Legions shift their supposedly pre-ordained roles that much, it becomes hard to accept "predestination" as a possibility in the lives of the Primarchs. Their only roles were to be generals. Instead they were knights, guardians, statesmen, artists, hedonists, sadists and preachers. Yeah, predestination worked so well for them.

[RapatoR]

Opposite to Wolves, Scars value art and knowledge. Scars just don't go around burning books, killing innocents and so on.

 

Opposite to Scars, Wolves value rules. Remember that Scars didn't even considered accepting Nikea.

 

That's the main difference I think.

 

On the Executioner side of things I would love to be it absent in at least one novel where SW appear. It is making them seem one-dimensional and dull, moreover it is becoming as annoying as Alpha Legion being Emperor's Infiltrators, infiltrating Emperor's will on others legions because no one else would be capable of infiltrating it. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

Kol, how can you say the Wolves shifted their role so much once Russ was found? As far as I'm aware, we haven't got any info about the pre-Russ VI Legion yet.

 

Regarding the XII. I don't know about the later novels, but in Betrayal, the War Hounds being held back to counter possible treachery is only mentioned as speculation. Didn't the rebellion on Cerberus happen during the crusade moving out of Sol? I believe the Betrayal said most of the Legions were already deployed/deploying, and the War Hounds were sent, not because of some preordained role, but because they were the only Legion available. The other point that makes  the XII unsuitable as executioners imo is their tactical doctrine, even pre Angron their threw their mariners into the fray and fought until one of 2 outcomes, victorious slaughter or simple slaughter. This blunt approach, if sent against another Legion, its quite likely to result in crippling casualties on both sides. leaving the Emperor effectively down 2 Legions and leaving his ultimate sanction defanged for a while as it's brought up to strength.

 

As for the VIII, two main differences (as I see it). The Night Lord's were meant to brutalise and torture, leaving their victims as an example to those who might contemplate opposing the Emperor, the Wolves 'just' killed whatever they deployed against, very throughly. The VIII were in part propaganda weapon, the Wolves weren't. Secondly, the fluff states that a chief aspect of the Wolves as executioners was of sanctioning other Astartes. I've seen a post by A D-B around the forum somewhere with a Sevatar quote explaining why the Night Lords weren't suited to this task.

 

We need some more fluff on the Wolves tbh, but with Massacre talking about the Wolves, Salamander and Alphas being made separate, that clearly suggests that at least some Legions had specific roles in the Emperor's scheming. It's also worth bearing in mind that the Wolf gene seed is particularly resistant to Chaos (see 13th company), as well as being particularly potent but unstable. Given that Chaos was the ultimate enemy of the Emperor in his crusade, it it unreasonable that the one of his Legions with the greatest innate resistance to Warp Taint and in inherently strong gene seed would be a planned counter if the Ruinous Pwers got their claws into another Legion? Obviously this didn't go to plan, but it's a resonable theory imo.

 

As for the Warhawk, odds on it came about because it's a pretty epic nickname. But it could also be derived from Jaghatai's character, he's a fast moving, long ranging, Primarch whose preferred war methodolgy involves not getting bogged down in slogging matches, yet is incredibly deadly. Reasonably accurate to derive 'hawk' from that if you ask me.

[Vesper]

Yet I remember a part of a FW HH book (might be Betrayal) saying that when the Emperor wanted an enemy delt with, he'd just send the War Hounds / World Eaters.

Pretty much looks like the very definition of being an executioner to me.

 

But I concur : Warhawk is just around because it sounds cool.

[b1soul]

Apparently everything. I don't know. Personally I put as much as stock in "the Primarchs had roles" as most people put into Bill Clinton's cries of fidelity.

 

Seriously, "the Wolves are the Executioners." That's why the War Hounds were told to execute the Renegade Thunder Warriors, something no Astartes had ever done, or has done since.

 

And when the terrors of Ild Night made a reappearance on Terra, was it the Wolves who were called? Nope. It was a contingent of 500 Night Lords who were chosen to execute a city of millions.

 

The Wolves are the last in line and only by virtue of being controllable after their Primarch was found. When Legions shift their supposedly pre-ordained roles that much, it becomes hard to accept "predestination" as a possibility in the lives of the Primarchs. Their only roles were to be generals. Instead they were knights, guardians, statesmen, artists, hedonists, sadists and preachers. Yeah, predestination worked so well for them.

 

At the very least, we know that the Khan considers himself the "Warhawk" and that the term has quite a bit of meaning to him. Also, I don't think the Warhounds were told to execute renegade Thunder Warriors. Didn't they just run into a few remnants on one of their campaigns?

[Vesper]

 

Apparently everything. I don't know. Personally I put as much as stock in "the Primarchs had roles" as most people put into Bill Clinton's cries of fidelity.

 

Seriously, "the Wolves are the Executioners." That's why the War Hounds were told to execute the Renegade Thunder Warriors, something no Astartes had ever done, or has done since.

 

And when the terrors of Ild Night made a reappearance on Terra, was it the Wolves who were called? Nope. It was a contingent of 500 Night Lords who were chosen to execute a city of millions.

 

The Wolves are the last in line and only by virtue of being controllable after their Primarch was found. When Legions shift their supposedly pre-ordained roles that much, it becomes hard to accept "predestination" as a possibility in the lives of the Primarchs. Their only roles were to be generals. Instead they were knights, guardians, statesmen, artists, hedonists, sadists and preachers. Yeah, predestination worked so well for them.

 

At the very least, we know that the Khan considers himself the "Warhawk" and that the term has quite a bit of meaning to him. Also, I don't think the Warhounds were told to execute renegade Thunder Warriors. Didn't they just run into a few remnants on one of their campaigns?

Nah. The Cerberus insurection, led by rogue TW.

 

"The Emperor himself dispached his War Hounds to Cerberus (and it appears the irony was not lost on him in doing so) with explicit instructions to reclaim Cerberus colony and carry the Emperor's wroth to those that had defied him".

Betrayal, page 85.

[Conn Eremon]

I have to agree with Leif, that the War Hounds were chosen out of convenience of availability rather than intended role, though they did impress the Emperor well enough to use them in such a role again.

 

As for the Warhawk, Scars showed it as a nickname, not a role. Like the Phoenician, the Cyclops, the Gorgon.

[b1soul]

Nah. The Cerberus insurection, led by rogue TW.

"The Emperor himself dispached his War Hounds to Cerberus (and it appears the irony was not lost on him in doing so) with explicit instructions to reclaim Cerberus colony and carry the Emperor's wroth to those that had defied him".

Betrayal, page 85.

 

...but wasn't the fact that the Cerberus Insurrection was led by surviving TW unknown to the Imperium? It's been a while since I read it.

[Vesper]

" (...) and initial attempts to impose order by Terran troops had been thrown back in disarray as it became apparent that among the insurrectionists was a renegade cadre of outlawed Thunder Warriors - long believed dead - calling themselves the Dait'tar".

Same book, same page, just before the part I quoted in my last post.

[Scribe]

Opposite to Wolves, Scars value art and knowledge. Scars just don't go around burning books, killing innocents and so on.

 

Opposite to Scars, Wolves value rules. Remember that Scars didn't even considered accepting Nikea.

 

That's the main difference I think. 

 

I quite like this.

[Wade Garrett]

The other point that makes the XII unsuitable as executioners imo is their tactical doctrine, even pre Angron their threw their mariners into the fray and fought until one of 2 outcomes, victorious slaughter or simple slaughter. This blunt approach, if sent against another Legion, its quite likely to result in crippling casualties on both sides.

Indeed. Angron would have tried to fight the XV with a preliminary orbital bombardment, followed by landing all his Marines and ordering them to kill everything with chainaxes.

 

Russ ordered an orbital bombardment, then landed all his Marines and told them to kill everything with frostblades. A much more subtle and refined strategy.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, the difference(as Khârn put it), the Wolves stopped with Prospero. They didn't slaughter any worlds on the way in or iut and they stopped with Prospero. As far as we know they didn't go out hunting down the remaining Thousand Sons.

 

That's the difference. The Wolves wear a leash. The Night Lords and World Eaters do not. But the War Hounds did, hence their name.