fixing the walkers? can it be done?

[aura_enchanted]

Let's be honest here, with the exception of warwalkers b/c they can shoot nobody finds dreads, brutes, sentinels, and etc threatening. Can we fix this? Are they beyond repair? Discuss.

 

Really tbh I think dreads are a bit of a joke right now and you would be an idiot to field sentinels.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Let's be clear; if this thread is going to live, it needs to be about tactics for walkers.  Any suggestions for changing the rules for walkers will result in the thread being moved to the Homegrown Rules forum.

[tdemayo]

I'm afraid I don't see a good tactical fix for walkers, using the current rules. They are so-so in some roles, but not awesome.

 

At AV 12 you can make dreds a shooting platform with two gun arms. That's as survivable as a Chimera, but with generally high-strength, more useful weapons. They are elites, so if you want lots of vehicles, they are a place to turn after filling heavy slots.

 

Alternative, they can have the cc weapon. There are fewer melts guns or fists these days, so they may survive acceptably if they reach cc. I fought a defiler in cc the other day. He auto squished Khan, but was otherwise not too scary. They are probably better off supporting a squad in cc, rather than fighting alone.

 

Wasn't there a thread about this very topic a few weeks ago?

[incinerator950]

I'm afraid I don't see a good tactical fix for walkers, using the current rules. They are so-so in some roles, but not awesome.

 

At AV 12 you can make dreds a shooting platform with two gun arms. That's as survivable as a Chimera, but with generally high-strength, more useful weapons. They are elites, so if you want lots of vehicles, they are a place to turn after filling heavy slots.

 

Alternative, they can have the cc weapon. There are fewer melts guns or fists these days, so they may survive acceptably if they reach cc. I fought a defiler in cc the other day. He auto squished Khan, but was otherwise not too scary. They are probably better off supporting a squad in cc, rather than fighting alone.

 

Wasn't there a thread about this very topic a few weeks ago?

 

It's still up somewhere.  The very nature of AV12 and the damage to armor/hull mechanics for vehicles is the dreads biggest weakness besides price.   Defilers are under armored and overpriced for what they do (battlecannon is also a detriment).  Before anyone mentions, Demon, IWND, and Demon Forge doesn't stop

someone who actually wants to glass it, it just keeps it alive in attrition.  Iron Clads are fairly armored and do what normal dreads better because of their armor.  It's beneficial for them to be hot dropped with the melee/heavy flamer setup. 

 

About the only thing going for Brutes are the formations, and that's a stretch because the Mayhem Pack is a 50/50 (generous) chance to fail miserably or work, with the Murderfist being a very expensive formation of 5 Dreads that are hopeful to begin with to use Lascannons and missile launchers.  The helcult is the most utilitarian, but that's debatable if you want a Helbrute to begin with if you're just using Cultists as the minimum to man a Bastion/ADL or for the Allies selection (Demon Cheese lists).

 

So unless FW decides to start releasing better dread/walker variations, you're not stuck with many options as both the Traitor and Loyalist main variants just don't cut it.

[Azash]

Dreads have the worstend of the stick rules wise. Another good example is cover as they follow vehicle rules for cover where as an flying mc can fly above area terrain that doesn't come close to covering the model but it still benefits from cover.

 

To make them work tactically you have to spend points to mitigate there badness which IMO is points wasted. A good example of this would be taking a tech marine too hide behind a group of rifleman dreads and try to restore HP and an aegis for them to hide behind.

 

Essentially you spent 100 pts to make 250 (two rifleman dreads..?) pts work. So now your CM don't get his shield ettwrnal or your missing your attack bike etc your TFC stayed at home on the shelf. For less points I can take devastators stick them in terrain and get more bang for the buck and better survivability.

 

Suicide drop pod MM is less viable this edition because armor is less prevelant. About the only viable tactic they have now is Ironclad dropped in with another pod unit to make it a pick your poison scenario for your opponent. However I can still think of 10 better ways in C:SM to spend those points.

 

The only viable walker I know of (besides imperial knights which are a whole other kettle of fish) is the eldar war walkers. Simply because they are relatively cheap, come in squadrons, and let you roll a truck load of dice. The Eldar having the best of any unit type in 40k leaves me shocked and bewildered at the rarity of such an occurance ;)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Now that I have time to respond with more than my opening salvo, let me set the record straight on Dreadnoughts.

 

Regular AV12 Dreadnoughts, be they C:SM or C:CSM -- I have no experience one way or another with any other Marine 'dex in 6th Edition, but I imagine they're mostly the same -- can be useful and utilitarian in an army list if, and only if, you're making a full mechanized list.  Why does this matter?  Because 6th Edition has seen a huge drop in the number of armored vehicles that normally hit the tabletop.  Full mechanized armies, except amongst the Eldar (:cuss ing Wave Serpents. . .), tend to be rare.  Thus, people tend to pack less anti-armor weapons than they used to.

 

What this means is that a fully mechanized army is going to overload your average enemy's ability to kill all of your vehicles in a reasonable time frame.  Being mostly Marines, this does have the side effect of putting a lot of AV11 Rhino chassis on the table.  Filling in a few of the Elite slots with AV12 Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, ups the ante by increasing your armor saturation and creating target priority issues for your opponent.  Do they shoot the AV12 mobile power fist with a plasma cannon, or do they gun down a Rhino carrying a full Tactical Squad on its way to dump its own load of plasma into something?  Consider them to be vaguely expendable, and they can generate hesitation in your opponent and force hard choices.

 

The Ironclad Dreadnought -- and the Furioso, I'd imagine, too -- is the exception.  AV13 makes it resilient against plasma and immune to krak grenades, the two more common threats against Dreadnoughts; a pair of heavy flamers makes for excellent anti-infantry firepower to boot.  Pod in one or two on Turn One and watch your opponent squeal as their front line, thought safe behind that Aegis Line, gets barbequed.  Make no mistake, they are only good in pods and are best used as an early-game attempt to push your opponent on his backfoot.  Force him to fight on his side of the table, and you're halfway to victory already.

 

The Venerable upgrade for a Dreadnought, on the other hand, is mostly a waste of points.  I say mostly because if you're playing with Iron Hands Chapter Tactics from C:SM, then here's an AV12 Dread that can be worth its weight.  The trick is the combination of HP recovery from IWND and repair rolls combined with the Hard to Kill rule allowing you to (mostly) prevent explosions.  An even better set-up is if you take multiples, keep them close together behind an ADL or on a Skyshield, with a MOTF with the Clan Raukaan supplement's Ironstone relic handy.  4+ saves, Hard to Kill, someone nearby ready to repair, and 4+ IWND; these guys are an investment and they deserve the extra points to keep shooting.  If you do take Ven Dreads, try to avoid the twinlinked weapons unless you know you're really going to need the range advantage; plasma and assault cannons are probably the best options since they give a multiple-kill capability.

[Axagoras]

the one issue to "armor saturation" is that any tau line or eldar list worth something is packing tons of s7 shots that tear you up. serpent and salvosides will ruin any light infantry and vehicle.

[minigun762]

I still think the Rifledread is viable. Parked in cover you're getting a reasonable cover save and your long range reduces the incoming shooting.

 

Yes a trio of Wave Serpent will kill them but you're talking about using 300+ points to eat a single dread. Not surprising really.

[Black Cohort]

My Ironclad dreadnought with dual heavy flamers makes a splash when he pods in, have some other high priority targets and watch your enemy squirm.  They usually either massively overkill one thing, or spread fire too much and everything survives.  Which when my other high value targets were a vindicator and a Land Raider with honour guard and chapter master ends really badly for the other guy.

[McFisty]

I still use riflemen dreads with my Dark Angels Deathwing and they always make a difference in my games. They almost always survive because they have at least one, sometimes two, land raiders on the table to draw fire. Their long range allows them to sit in cover in my own deployment zone and still reach the enemy. They are especially useful against fast armies like Eldar or White Scars. Anytime I am up against a much faster army, I find it best to bunch up in one corner, wait for the enemy to come to me, and use my long range guns to destroy high priority targets. I agree that walkers are less useful in 6th ed. than in previous editions of the game, but they still deliver a lot of value when supported by the right amount of armor and used with comprehensive tactics.

[MagicMan]

I love the idea of a Dreadnought ground-pounding towards the enemy alongside a Tac squad, giving them more punch in melee and giving supporting heavy weapons fire, but ingame they get blown up by just about anything besides basic infantry... And they're too expensive/eat an elite slot compared to how fragile they are.

 

Which is a shame. Because Dread's are one of 40k's iconic, super awesome units.

 

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121004050428/warhammer40k/images/0/0d/Dreadnought00.jpg

[Tangamarine]

I have fielded rifle dreads a few times in 6th, with varying results. One game they managed to act as adhoc anti air, but if you really want to go down that route, I suggest a mortis dread from forgeworld with twin linked lascannons, as they can really put the hurt of enemy fliers, especially if you are like me and refuse to buy fliers and love your heavy support slots for more armour saturation

[GreyCrow]

It all depends on the points you are playing with. I see 2 scenarios : Above or below 1000 points.

 

At 1000+, I wouldnot bother with anything that has AV12 or less. Why ? Because at that point count, you have just so much anti-armour weapon density that your Dreadnought is not going to survive long. For instance, a Deva Lascannon squad costs 150pts. Two of them in the list allows to have 700 points spent for the rest of your army. Which is roughly 3 more squads and an HQ.

And 8 Lascannon shots are going to chew through AV12, whether you are in cover or not.

 

Weapon density is not only measured in the number of models equipped with an upgaded weapon, but also based on the board size. You literrally play on the same board size from 500 points to 2000 points. That means that you have more anti-tank weapon per square foot of enemy deployment, and thus less places where you could survive.

 

Below 1000 points, AV12 or less becomes effective, simply because the opponent doesn't have the ability to take enough weapon density to deal with your armour. And the lower points the game has, the more effective low armour values become. No later that yesterday, I played a 500 points game, and there was a total of 2 Razorbacks and a rifle Dread on the enemy's side and 1 Rhino on my end. Over the whooping total of 15 Hull Points, only 4 were removed by the end of the game in Turn 6.

 

And we played on a 4'x4' board, which is not enough to really play with weapon ranges. To me, that really illustrates that at lower point count, low AV is quite efficient. At higher point counts, I would simply not bother with AV 12 or lower, except for fliers because they are inherently survivable.

[Armfelt]

I must agree that the humble dreadnought, really shines during lower point games.
At our LGS playing 2vs2 tournaments (750pts/player) my TL-LC Dreadnought always bring it´s points back, often roaming a flank, shooting at side armours, MC etc.

[GreyCrow]

I beleive we should look at the Dreadnoughts as a humblier but more versatile Predator tank. The good bit with the Predator is its front AV13, which makes it viable in larger points games, thanks to its range as well. After all, what is a Dreadnought, except a mega-marine ? It's more protected, impervious to Boltguns equivalents, is able to assault and wield with ease larger versions of regular issue marine weapons.

 

For lower points games, the Dreadnought is a superior choice over the Predator, I beleive, because it is less stuck to one role (long range durable fire support) but can operate well along foot soldiers.

[incinerator950]

If I could play any time soon (hah), I'd love to throw this mayhem pack in.

[minigun762]

I beleive we should look at the Dreadnoughts as a humblier but more versatile Predator tank. The good bit with the Predator is its front AV13, which makes it viable in larger points games, thanks to its range as well. After all, what is a Dreadnought, except a mega-marine ? It's more protected, impervious to Boltguns equivalents, is able to assault and wield with ease larger versions of regular issue marine weapons.

 

For lower points games, the Dreadnought is a superior choice over the Predator, I beleive, because it is less stuck to one role (long range durable fire support) but can operate well along foot soldiers.

Two things I like that the Dreadnought has over the Predator is the ability to move 6" and fire everything and having tall weapon mounts that can see over low terrain and ADL.

[GreyCrow]

 

I beleive we should look at the Dreadnoughts as a humblier but more versatile Predator tank. The good bit with the Predator is its front AV13, which makes it viable in larger points games, thanks to its range as well. After all, what is a Dreadnought, except a mega-marine ? It's more protected, impervious to Boltguns equivalents, is able to assault and wield with ease larger versions of regular issue marine weapons.

 

For lower points games, the Dreadnought is a superior choice over the Predator, I beleive, because it is less stuck to one role (long range durable fire support) but can operate well along foot soldiers.

Two things I like that the Dreadnought has over the Predator is the ability to move 6" and fire everything and having tall weapon mounts that can see over low terrain and ADL.

 

True ! For some reason, I was convinced that the Predators had Power of the Machine spirit. Dreadnoughts are good mobile weapon platforms, but I still believe that they are not very survivable in high points game where there is so many high strength weapons.

 

Great for lower points games though, for the flexibility and the mobility !

[incinerator950]

I want to try the Murderfist, but I'm stocked up on DV Helbrutes that I'm not really interested in buying bits to convert them.  Although it'd be really, really funny.

 

That said the Mayhem Pack exemplifies the difference in the Helbrute, it is supposed to be expendable.  Just that the price isn't always worth it.

[Crazy Jay]

I like my dreadnaught with a heavy flamer podding in on turn one take on scoring troops. I've had a lot of success with that, far more than long distance shooting dread.

[FlamingDeth]

I take footslogging CCW dreads all the time. The trick, as mentioned, is to have lots of armor saturation. If your entire list is foot infantry with two av 12 models derping about its a no brainer that they're going to explode, but what about when you also have a land raider, two vindicators, some speeders, and rhinos? Target priority gets a bit trickier, and when a CCW dread gets to their backfield, things start folding.

 

Also, first post says something about being an idiot to field sentinels? Explain further? Scout sentinels are expendable outflanking heavy weapons, armored sentinels are cheap additions to mech guard av12 spam. They seem awesome to me. Not good at CC, but seriously man, guard.

 

EDIT: Not that I would turn down better walker rules either. They seem like they're supposed to be stompy vehicle versions of monstrous creatures, but MCs seem like they got the better end of the rules schtick. Still, with proper armor saturation, they're at least as useful as predators.

[incinerator950]

I'm thinking of gutting my army list to include a Murderpack.  The problem is I need to magnetize my dreads and brutes early, as I'm likely to run a Mayhem pack for smaller games and I don't want to run much past the basic loadout. 

[minigun762]

I feel like some of the weapon options are overpriced,assault cannon and TLLC especially. Would've loved a TLMM.

[GreyCrow]

I agree with you minigun. The assault cannon is a pretty risky gambit for its price, considering that you have it twin linked on a Razorback for the same price.

[minigun762]

I agree with you minigun. The assault cannon is a pretty risky gambit for its price, considering that you have it twin linked on a Razorback for the same price.

 

That really is the issue, the price tags for those weapons should be for TL'd versions. 

A TL assault cannon a dread, now that would be worthwhile. TL'd plasma cannon, could have a lot of potential. 

 

The pricing makes it difficult to not use the free multi melta or the bargain price TL autocannon as the primary options.