fixing the walkers? can it be done?

[incinerator950]

I don't play Loyalist, I get a crazy brute that had to get a dataslate just to be useful.  That being said, they're fairly good, its just they're so damn expensive.

[SyNidus]

This has given me ideas. I'd love to find points in my list to have 2 ironclad dreads dropping down on turn 1. I've had to shelf my ironclad because he kept being nothing more than a Melta-magnet, the rare games where he does get into CC he wrecks face. Perhaps 2 might be the solution to the problem.

[Naminé]

I find the Ironclad works best in a pod when he's got another pod to drop alongside... containing a command squad or sternguard.  That way he can pick on infantry whilst they pick on the big bad that could hurt him.

 

The only other walkers I use are Penitent Engines, and they work best moving through cover alongside lots of transports to make things as awkward as possible.

[Captain Idaho]

I've had great results from a Dread with assault cannon and twin linked autocannon though I feel it is around 15-25 points too expensive right now.

 

However I have to echoe the sentiment that it needs armoured threats to distract our opponents or else he just dies.

 

And we all know they need a boost in the rules too. Shame but true right now.

[Azash]

The armor saturation keeps them alive is a myth at least in my experience.

 

My early 6th ed competitive list was designed around armor saturation. The list had 26 HP's; 16 of which were armor 13 or above, of the reamianing 10 HP's, 4 came from fliers.

 

It didn't keep the ironclad alive any longer. The reality with grenades and glancing an opponent can focus the killing fire power on the dreads and let grenades/assault whittle away on the rest. Essentially armor saturation can catch inexperienced players by surprised and be effective however a skilled and experienced player has all the tools they need in this edition to deal with it.

[Axagoras]

like maybe a list of leman russes will work for armor spam (since massive price drops ftw) but even a 6 dread iron hands spam list wont work vs most armies, like tau interceptor will kill most on arrival and riptides laugh at walkers

[Captain Idaho]

An Iron Clad isn't the same as a Dreadnought though. They operate in totally different ways. In fact, by Dropping down, an Iron Clad dominates target priority, thus enhancing the survivability of other vehicles simply because it has to be dealt with. That's armour saturation.

 

I feel Iron Clads are totally different and need their own consideration in a list. ;)

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, Ironclads are a massive target when played in a pod. They just have to deal with them, otherwise they will get smashed. If you plan on having your Ironclads do heavy lifting, I would rather have them come from reserves rather than alphastriking in a pod on T1.

 

To me that means either reserve pod or stormraven. In any case, they won't perform before Turn 3. Another alternative would be to footslog them up the board while providing other juicy targets in the meantime.

[Azash]

Another alternative would be to footslog them up the board while providing other juicy targets in the meantime.

See my post above sir. Cause if a land raider full of assault terminators and 3x vindicators were not juciy enough to keep the ironclad alive nothing is.

[knife&fork]

If our HQ and troop choices weren't so expensive I bet an allied frag cannon dread would be a popular pick. Easily one of the best units in our codex. Or a death company dread with claws if you run multiple storm ravens. They stand a fair chance of wiping an entire tac squad on the charge and entire guard or gaunt blobs if you buff it with prescience! 6 S7 WS5 I4 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound, with new attacks generated for every unsaved wound. It's evil.

Gotta enjoy that while it lasts because I doubt it will remain the way it is when we get a new codex.

I've tried using Furioso dreads and allied ironclads kitted for close combat but I find that they lack the number of attacks to actually accomplish something. It's very easy to get bogged down.

Wish I could use that torrent flamer siege dread in normal games, but taking a normal dread with TLHF and HF is actually a pretty good and cheap combo. If nothing else it surprises people because it's something they have never seen due to a lack of official model.

[GreyCrow]

After thinking about it, I still think that Dreadnoughts would work better in low points games than in higher points games, but even then, they need support. The bane of Dreadnoughts is going to be dedicated anti-vehicle units, and some codexes are just better at it than not. Eldars, Necrons, etc.

 

I actually plan on fielding a Dreadnought in my next 1000 points force. This force will be all comers, both because I sometimes play in tournaments with fixed lists and because I don't have the room for a large model collection and because I'm a super lazy guy ! :D

 

Back when I was a kid, I really enjoyed the might of the Dreadnought in the games. It was definetely better when there were no hull points, although glancing could effectively render him ineffective.

 

I plan to have a drop pod heavy force with Ultramarines Chapter Tactics, and I think the Dreadnought really works well in this situation. Depending on what the enemy brings, I can choose to have him come in Turn 1 or later. I plan to have him support 2 squads of Tactical marines that will be way up the board, as well as use the Pods for Battlefield control and overall road obstacles.

 

Because he will be in the face of the enemy, the following characteristics were key :

- No need for high range weapons

- As an all comer support, he needs to be reliable on both infantry and vehicle targets

- The main enemy of the Dreadnought is volume of hits, so need for a strong defense against multiple enemies and ability to clear many models at a time

 

Because I was point constrained, I couldn't take the venerable upgrade to increase the reliability of the hits with ballistic skill 5, and I felt that the base Multi Melta was keeping the Dreadnought as a dedicated Anti-tank unit, although not reliable on the turn it arrives because it has only one shot with 33% chance of missing the target.

 

The following loadout came naturally to mind :

- Right arm : Twin-linked Heavy Flamer

- Left arm : Powerfist with heavy flamer

 

Because the pod can provide an aggressive deployment and strategy, I'm relatively sure that I can drop it with sufficient ease on an intended target. The 2 templates I find interesting because of the sheer ability to put numerous wounds on the enemy units, thanks to the auto hits and reroll to wounds on half the hits. In addition, they are strength 5 and AP 4 with Ignores Cover, so it feels like a mini Heldrake in that aspect. I'll be able to toast any unit save for MEQ, but I will probably cripple them seriously on the turn he arrives.

 

In addition, because volumes of strength 6 hits like krak grenades can really damage the dread, I wanted a strong overwatch. The 2 flamers provide that ! :D

And finally, I feel the fist is going to be sufficient to destroy any stray vehicle I come accross. I have other more dedicated anti-vehicle units that will aim for the critical vehicles early on that are in drop pod as well, so I'll use the s10 power fist attacks as an extra :D

 

I feel this design can have a lot of potential. I haven't gotten the chance to test it or even buy it yet, but I'm optimistic about the results it may produce based on that thinking !

[minigun762]

The following loadout came naturally to mind :

- Right arm : Twin-linked Heavy Flamer

- Left arm : Powerfist with heavy flamer

I think the natural comparison is, would it be better to take an Ironclad?

You lose TL from one heavy flamer but you gain an extra attack as well as AV13.

That said, the IC is more expensive and the cheaper FlameNought (see if that name sticks ) does have a better alpha strike.

Not to mention you still create that sense of panic of having a nasty thing in your backfield that you have to deal with. Yes it's easier to kill but it was also less of an investment to begin with.

[knife&fork]

A case for the IC is getting that natural/improved cover within melta range.... Even better if you can support that dread with barrage (thunderfire or allied wyverns) to snipe a melta or lance weapon out of a squad.

 

As stated earlier I like that TLHF+HF dread, it's inexpensive and gets the job done. The 40 pt difference between the two can make quite a difference elsewhere in a list.

[incinerator950]

That 45 points to get my Mayhem pack 3 Heavy flamers is a huge difference in my list.

[minigun762]

On this topic, how would you model the TL heavy flamer arm?

[knife&fork]

I had a bunch of extra multimelta arms, so I just used on of those. 

 

I replaced the MM barrels/nozzle with the dual HF from the defiler kit, they match up very well in size.  Looks a bit more old school than the usual SM flamer weapons but I have a theme in my army with lots of older/heresy era stuff. 

 

EDIT: The IG/AM sentinel heavy flamer is slightly smaller than its SM counterparts but keeps that modern imperial look. They could probably be used in a similar way. 

[GreyCrow]

Alternatively, Forge World offers a big :cuss: flamer for the right arm, I think that could work. Or I would try to convert the Flamestorm cannon from a LR Redeemer bitz.

 

I like the Flamenought name ! :D

Regarding the Ironclad, I think the roles are different. You want the IC to tackle big stuff solo, thanks to the extra attack and armour. Anything that isn't strength 10 can't really hurt the Ironclad reliably, and the Armourbane Chainfist is great for Land Raiders.

 

The Flamenought acts as a synergetic support for the natural targets of the Tactical Marine. With the heavy flamer combo, he has the ability to put so many wounds on infantry models that I can imagine the awe it will provide ! :D

 

With a mathammer against MEQ, if the flamer template can cover 5 models :

- Twin Linked HF : 1.48 average unsaved wounds - 46.4% to kill 2 or more MEQ

- HF : 1.11 average unsaved wounds - 30.8% to kill 2 or more MEQ

 

On average, you would get 3 models per strike, which I find is quite okay against MEQ for something that isn't AP3.

 

When you put these numbers against Eldar infantry or Tau Fire Warriors models :

- Twin Linked HF : 4.86 average unsaved wounds - 100% chance to kill 3 models or more

- HF : 4.17 average unsaved wounds - 96.5% chance to kill 3 models or more

 

Against Necron Warriors :

- Twin Linked HF : 4.44 - 98.8% chance to kill 3 models or more

- HF : 3.33 - 79.0% chance to kill 3 models or more

 

In a single volley, you can pretty much wipe out a unit :D The AP4 really shines here, and I think it is something that is quite overlooked. After consideration, I think they are going to be an auto include on my sternguard veterans as well... Damn the heavy flamers, they are going to be the bane of my opponents :D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No Dreadnought ever wants to tackle anything alone.  Well, maybe a tank or two, but not infantry targets.  Even at three attacks base, it takes too long for an Ironclad to chew through a squad, and while its immune to krak grenades, meltabombs are not uncommon and they can mess him up.  The podding Ironclad with dual flamers should be viewed, like Suicide Sternguard, as ultimately expendable.  He's there to A. eliminate an infantry threat on the drop, and B. force an early realignment of enemy target priority.  The Flamenought does the exactly same thing, except he's easier to kill.

[GreyCrow]

Completely agree with Ferrum here. Furthermore, I think that any unit should be viewed as expendable. But that doesn't mean that they should be played recklessly.

 

The Flame Ironclad is a tougher nut to crack compared to the regular Dreadnought, but I don't seem to figure out how to make its points back efficiently. He will shine compared to the Flamenought over longer period thanks to its brutal melee efficiency and he needs to be able to damage for a few turns. That's how I would justify his point investment.

 

The problem I see with the Ironclad is that you won't be able to use him effectively before Turn 3, regardless of what transportation mean you favor. The most efficient way I would see him played is as part of the mobile element of a gunline oriented army.

 

Picture this : Your army is mainly geared for sustained long range fire. You have Predators, devastators and heavy weapons tacticals in Razorbacks. The strategy is to hold back and pummel the enemy until you make an opening move in the late game with a more mobile element, at which point your army will start moving forward. I can see that mobile element being a stormraven with the Ironclad and a small squad inside. Fly it up the board and disgorge your content over an objective in the backfield of the enemy.

Now, the enemy's advancing force is cut off and encircled and now you can start moving up to capture the objectives.

The main goal of your first turns will be to destroy anything that could stop this reinforcement, especially Interceptor skyfiring weapons.

 

That makes roughly 400 points for a 2nd wave between the Raven, the Ironclad and the squad inside, which should be a relatively low point one geared for clearing infantry. It's quite expensive, but it's a damn interesting wrecking ball.

[minigun762]

Completely agree with Ferrum here. Furthermore, I think that any unit should be viewed as expendable. But that doesn't mean that they should be played recklessly.

 

I think that's a tough thing for some people to remember. 

This is a game of horrible violent war and things WILL die. 

 

But do they die with purpose, that's the question. 

[malorn24]

Any luck getting the flamenaught on the board and test the war theory? I have 2 IC 1 Ven and 1 TL-ML collecting dust and I want to desperatley get them out there. I usually play 1500-2000 point games so they take up too valuable Elite slot. Its not the points I am worried about it is the Elite slot that I lose turn 1 or 2 and get not much more than a troop squad in return. Thats like trading a Bishop for a Pawn.

[GreyCrow]

I don't own any Dread model and I'm on  business trip for a few weeks, so no luck from here :/

 

It all depends on what you usually fill your Elite with to be honest, and what role you want them to have. The good thing about the Flamenaught is that Troops are going to be paramount in the new 7th edition. They have a rule for armies following the force organization chart called "Objective secured" which is roughly the following :

- Any Troops unit gets the rule. While controlling an objective, it can't be contested except by another Troops choice with this rule.

 

Meaning that Troops are going to be ultimate objective controllers. Which is good, because in 6th it was easier to contest that it was to grab. A Flamenaught is going to be the ultimate Troops wiper, thanks to its ability to put so many wounds in a single turn... And because Troops are much much more important now, its role has become invaluable in my humble opinion !