MorgothNL Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Hi all, I've been struggling to build me an Emperors Children army for a few weeks now. I keep changing the lists I come up with, because they just don't fit me nor EC in my eyes. (2500pts) What I'm trying to get is a 'small' elite army. I want to reflect the fact that the EC were a small legion, but with some of the finest warriors. I just don't seem to be able to make the most out of the EC special rules nor reflect the fluff. The problems I'm having, which I was hoping to get some help/insight on are: - The non-legion-specific units have no flexibility to make them represent EC. I can loadout 10 veterans to the max, but when they come up against 20 naked tacticals, they will get eaten because they have the same initiative (same everything actually). I think FW should have given an (expensive) option to loadout veterans with sonic shriekers. - The palantine blades have a max squad number of 5... which is a problem when facing nearly anything that has 10 or more models. These guys to have the expertise and high initiative I want in my EC army, but if even 1 or 2 get shot, the squad is basically done for. Besides, they are not scoring and have a save of 3+ :(. (compared to the salamanders special unit with 2+ save and max 10 man squad, this kinda sucks hard) - The Phoenix guard look awesome, and the spears are nice, but they don't do anything, that is not done better by a 15 or 20 man tactical squad (which is cheaper). Again, I think they missed a opportunity here and should have given the tartaros armour the ability to sweep or something.. the EC special rule is wasted on them. Can any of you guys help me build an army, give me tips, or even nudge me in the right direction to achieve what I'm looking for? The lack of initiative boost to the non-legion-specific units poses a real problem and the problems I mentioned about the EC-specific units, don't help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Sounds like the standard EC problem. I think we need to blend our small elite style with massed support. Fir example palatine blades by themselves are weak, but hiding behind an assault squad the ensure they get to combat and the assult squad soaks hit to ensure combat it won. Same for Phoenix guard terminators ( they should have been in artificer armour, terminator is too slow, even Fulgrim complained about the slow speed of his terminator units at laer). They help out other nearby combats. Emperors children is all about the syniger between units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Palpatine Blades can go up to 10. They can buy Phoenix Spears, too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted May 1, 2014 Author Share Posted May 1, 2014 Thank you for the replies. The massed blob with elite support is what I'm trying not to do. If you start doing this, you will get a lack of armour/anti armour. If I run a assault squad blob with 5 palatine as support, my opponent can bring the same blob with a Scorpios, contemptor Mortis or sicaran. His combo will be much more flexible, harder to kill, and better at killing my blob + palatine (which is the problem I'm running in to on the field). Besides, this will make me end up with a army just as big, or even bigger, than my opponent. I want to be outnumbered, but outskill the opponent. Palpatine Blades can go up to 10. They can buy Phoenix Spears, too.I sure wish you were right.. But the 1st book says max 5 and Spears are only for power fist replacement (which they can't have). What do you know that I don't? It's 6th edition that seems to have ruined what I want to do. Before 6th, I could have taken veterans with furious charge (+1i in 5th), now furious charge doesn't give the initiave bonus. Maybe 7th or extermination will help me out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpiousSmart Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 In the new compiled list (see FW new stuff today), there are some revisions - someone posted a list a while ago. Palatine blades can be upto 10 and take Phoenix spears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 In Book III/Collectors edition summary they have ammended the Palatine to go up to 10, a FAQ will be coming out shortly after the third book. The big thing with EC is that their lists are all about synergy and buffs. They perform exceptionally well with their special characters which give the Combat resolution bonuses. Have a number of Anvil units (regular Tac squads) which are used to tar pit similar units, with a couple of the bonuses, chances are you are going to actually win combat against a toe for toe units, if you can make them break the EC have a better chance of sweeping advance and killing them. That appears to be one of their most effective tactics, dont try to wipe a unit, simply be survivable and you will actually win combat (because of your bonuses). You then create a number of hammer units, like the Palatine and Phoenix (I know they are a little underwhelming, but they look cool and they are still useful), along with the special characters to deploy the buffs. These Hammer units then hit the larger tar pitted units that you are having trouble with, or tackle some of the uglier units which your anvil units will get eaten by. It also depends on what points limit you are trying to write for, anything under 2,500 and you will actually struggle (even more so than other Legions) to create a well balanced list. Once you get to the 2,500 size you can create some pretty devastating combos BUT you really need to play tactically and pick your targets. Of course on top of all of these, this tactic very much relies on Assault, which is an uphill battle already, but not as much as regular 40K. as an ammendment, I think that EC will really struggle against fearless/stubborn opponents, however thankfully widespread fearless/stubborn is pretty rare in 30K. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Are you putting your tactical squads in rhinos and using the Hidden Blade? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Are you putting your tactical squads in rhinos and using the Hidden Blade? If he is using Veteran Tacticals I would assume he is using Pride of The Legion. What is your load out on these? You can build elite small fighting force without having to resort to Close Combat. Veterans do equally as well with being shooty. 10 Veterans with 2 Heavy Bolters with Suspensor Webs & Sergeant with Artificer Armour and Power Weapon is 260 pts. Give them outflank and it will certainly give any opposition pause for thought, or put them in a rhino for mobility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share Posted May 2, 2014 Thank you for all the replies! The amendment to the palantines makes me very happy :) (any chance they can be given artificer armour too ?:$). I have played about 5 battles with different lists and I have spend hours and hours calculating 'the final list'. This final list is anything but final right now, I have about 15 different set ups, none of which seem to be anything near competitive. Me and my friends are all building 2500pts lists. The last list I calculated was using Pride of the Legion with: Fulgrim Chaplain 5 Phoenix Guard (fully equiped) Spartan Rhino 10 Veterans (fully loaded with melta bombs, a few pw, vexilla and 2 missile launchers) Rhino 10 Veterans (fully loaded with melta bombs, a few pw, vexilla and 2 missile launchers) Rhino 9 Veterans (1 missile launcher) 2x Mortis contemptor (1 with kheres, 1 with lascannons) Predator (predator cannon and heavy bolters) Ive also tried some lists with Eidolon (he never lets me down), but the combat bonus of Fulgrim seems more important than the killing power of Eidolon. This looks like something I'm trying to do on paper, but I forgot that giving my veterans furious charge will not give them +1I anymore, so they dont stand a real change vs 20 tacticals, 10 pyroclasts or 10 fire drakes (which are part of my brothers army for example). Now that palantines can go up to 10, I think there are actually some opportunities for me. A protected 10 man squad in an assault vehicle (or jump packs), can really sweep across the board and pick of units in 1 turn. Any tips on how to make the veterans work like I want? Of coure the Maru Skara is an option, but if that list includes 10 palantines and some veterans, there isn't much room left for scoring units Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 He can't use Outflank with Pride of the Legion though, he has to take the Maru Skara. Also, he can't take Lascannons on his Mortis, because if he does take Maru Skara for outflank, he can't have anything with the Heavy rule in the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 He can't use Outflank with Pride of the Legion though, he has to take the Maru Skara. Also, he can't take Lascannons on his Mortis, because if he does take Maru Skara for outflank, he can't have anything with the Heavy rule in the army. Why can't he take outflank? It's a Legion Veteran Rule, not a rule with the Rite of War. And Pride of the Legion doesn't say anything about not being able to outflank. Or am i missing something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 No you're right, I forgot about their choosing a USR! My B. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share Posted May 2, 2014 He can't use Outflank with Pride of the Legion though, he has to take the Maru Skara. Also, he can't take Lascannons on his Mortis, because if he does take Maru Skara for outflank, he can't have anything with the Heavy rule in the army. Why can't he take outflank? It's a Legion Veteran Rule, not a rule with the Rite of War. And Pride of the Legion doesn't say anything about not being able to outflank. Or am i missing something? The veteran own outflank rule will still work. With regard to the lascannon mortis.. Is that how it works? I can't take any weapons with the heavy rule? I thought the rule was about super heavies and heavy tanks like some of the Imperial stuff. Not being allowed to take heavy weapons would be silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 He can't use Outflank with Pride of the Legion though, he has to take the Maru Skara. Also, he can't take Lascannons on his Mortis, because if he does take Maru Skara for outflank, he can't have anything with the Heavy rule in the army. Why can't he take outflank? It's a Legion Veteran Rule, not a rule with the Rite of War. And Pride of the Legion doesn't say anything about not being able to outflank. Or am i missing something? The veteran own outflank rule will still work. With regard to the lascannon mortis.. Is that how it works? I can't take any weapons with the heavy rule? I thought the rule was about super heavies and heavy tanks like some of the Imperial stuff. Not being allowed to take heavy weapons would be silly. The rule says, "Detachments using this Rite of War may not field units with immobile, Heavy, Slow and Purposeful special rules" To me that means he can take heavy weapons, as long as the unit is not a heavy unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 There is no unit in the game classified as Heavy. I just looked through the entirety of the USR section and found nothing. The only mention of Heavy I know of is for weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 There is no unit in the game classified as Heavy. I just looked through the entirety of the USR section and found nothing. The only mention of Heavy I know of is for weapons. Except for Tanks: Unit Type • Super-heavy Vehicle (Tank) But I can see how it can be viewed both ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share Posted May 2, 2014 There is no unit in the game classified as Heavy. I just looked through the entirety of the USR section and found nothing. The only mention of Heavy I know of is for weapons. It says 'units' with heavy rule though, not weapons. Not being able to field any heavy weapon is 'impossible'. Even a speeder has heavy weapons. You wouldn't be able to take any vehicle other than a rhino.. Nothing to use as anti armour. I'm 99% sure the rule is speaking of super heavy units and such. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I have sent an email to Forgeworld just to be certain :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 They do exist at the top of P.83 BRB 'Heavy vehicles' above 'Fast vehicles' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share Posted May 2, 2014 I have sent an email to Forgeworld just to be certain Cool! To go back on topic, does anyone have experience running loaded veteran squads vs mobs tacticals/assault squads? I could go for the Maru Skara (if the heavy weapons are allowed), maybe outflanking a phoenix and palantine unit, and having some rhinos with 10 normal tacticals as primary. I'll try and make me a list with this in mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3671850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share Posted May 2, 2014 My Extermination book arrived, and the anvillus drop pod looks very interesting. I'm just not sure if I'm allowed to do what I want with it. When I use the Maru Skara ROW, can I put troops inside the anvillus and outflank them using the ROW? So the question is: when one can choose a fast attack choice to outflank, does a troops choice inside a non-dedicated (but fast-attack choice) transport count? PS. Cant find the amendments though :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3672639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I have sent an email to Forgeworld just to be certain Reply from Forgeworld: Thank you for your email. 'Heavy' in this context does not refer to the force organisation chart choice, it refers to the unit type Heavy noted on page 83 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. For example the Leman Russ has the unit type: Tank, Heavy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3677490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanct Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 My Extermination book arrived, and the anvillus drop pod looks very interesting. I'm just not sure if I'm allowed to do what I want with it. When I use the Maru Skara ROW, can I put troops inside the anvillus and outflank them using the ROW? So the question is: when one can choose a fast attack choice to outflank, does a troops choice inside a non-dedicated (but fast-attack choice) transport count? PS. Cant find the amendments though I say yes. In the same way you can put a tactical squad in a storm-eagle and deep strike Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3677712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorgothNL Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 I have sent an email to Forgeworld just to be certain Reply from Forgeworld: > Thank you for your email. 'Heavy' in this context does not refer to the force organisation chart choice, it refers to the unit type Heavy noted on page 83 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. For example the Leman Russ has the unit type: Tank, Heavy. Thank you for quoting the reply of FW. The heavy restriction doesn't pose any problem then :). My Extermination book arrived, and the anvillus drop pod looks very interesting. I'm just not sure if I'm allowed to do what I want with it. When I use the Maru Skara ROW, can I put troops inside the anvillus and outflank them using the ROW? So the question is: when one can choose a fast attack choice to outflank, does a troops choice inside a non-dedicated (but fast-attack choice) transport count? PS. Cant find the amendments though I say yes. In the same way you can put a tactical squad in a storm-eagle and deep strike I played a 2500pts battle vs Salamanders the other day, using the Maru Skara. I used it to outflank 10 Palatines with jumps packs. It was an insanely fun game, and now that the Palatine can go 10max, they are awesome. I will remove the jump packs for the battle I have today vs Salamanders, and put them in an Anvillus using the Maru Skara. This will be legal for sure since Palatine are Elites and the Anvillus is Fast. It's the same amount of points, and I want to see which option performs better and suits the EC better. I really underestimated the Emperors Children when I opened this topic.. The battle I had last week vs the Salamanders was great. He was taking the lead more and more as the game progressed. My Maru Skara units came in on turn 3 into a battle I thought I had already lost. Once they joined combat turn 4, its was over for the salamander and he was tabled turn 6 (apart for a rhino). Phoenix spears on all Sergeants seems like a must, as does equipping all marines with extra close combat weapons. My 20man tactical squad + Eidolon won combat vs his 10 Fire Drake Terminators + Praetor, and I killed them all in sweeping advance. My Palatine Squad killed a 20 man Assault squad without suffering a single casualty themselves (5 Phoenix Spears and 5 power weapons). His 10 man Pyroclast were stuck inside a storm eagle (it was zooming and got velocity locked :P) . I'm still digging through my books and the internet to find the amendments to the fist HH books. Can anyone somehow confirm or link something that I can show my opponent today that proves that jetbikes are now 2+ save for the same points? Also, I'm giving my Palatines Phoenix spears for 8pts each, can someone tell me if I need to go up or down in price (you don't have to give a number, to avoid breaking forum rules). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3677805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1241-change-to-legiones-astartes-death-guard/&do=findComment&comment=23340 Try this there's a PDF halfway down Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290475-making-the-most-out-of-emperors-children/#findComment-3677826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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