Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 This is a question that's been on my mind lately. In the fluff, it says that the Horus lowered his void shield in resignation because the other 3 legions had arrived. But how are they a threat to him? The Ultramarines lost 2/3rds of there fleet at Calth, And probably more in the Shadow Crusade, The Wolves took heavy losses at Alaxxes. The only ones who are above 50% fleet strength are the DA so shouldn't Horus just crush the arriving 3 legions with the combined fleet of the 7 legions+extra ships already there? I know they took casualties in the orbital battle but it seems really odd that 3 battered fleets could take on twice there number. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I have a feeling that when we get to this point in the series, the one lowering the shield will actually be one of two characters (speculation): 1) Horus Aximand. He will have sat out the battle and ultimately regret what he's done and where he is now. In a final act of loyalty to the Emps, he goes down to the generator and shuts it off. Abaddon is suspicious and follows him down there, only to fight him and kill him after learning the double disloyalty. Would explain why Abby is not with Horus or mentioned confronting Dorn and bodyguards. 2) Loken has somehow infiltrated the ship and is snooping around to figure out a way to get the big boys on it. Confronts Abbadon or little Horus and dies shutting off the shields. As for the fleet thing, I think that the DA fleet alone was a threatening proposition as Abnett possibly foreshadows in UE. Bobby G and his blue band all think that the fleet alone can destroy Macragge utterly (not without loss) after it arrives. I wouldn't underestimate them. As for the Wolves, I don't know what shape they are in after facing off the Alphas, and I can't imagine they suffered against the nonexistent orbital defenses of the TSs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I think its Omegon who will lower the shield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Horus would be in a hammer and anvil situation,yes 3 legions are coming from one side and the other is the most fortified planet in the universe. Not to mention any loyalist IA & Titan legions on route, horus needed to take terra even though mars was loyal how long till loyalist admech tried to take back they're honeworld. The emperor still lived and is more of a threat if he's reinforced Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted May 3, 2014 Author Share Posted May 3, 2014 Horus would be in a hammer and anvil situation,yes 3 legions are coming from one side and the other is the most fortified planet in the universe. Not to mention any loyalist IA & Titan legions on route, horus needed to take terra even though mars was loyal how long till loyalist admech tried to take back they're honeworld. The emperor still lived and is more of a threat if he's reinforced True, but at this point in the siege The Traitors have almost breached the Infinity Gate and hold most of the planet so it seems unlikely that they could get reinforcements to the palace without getting them blown away by Horus' fleet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Yes and no they are at the infinity gate and the WS have taken the space port back cutting off traitor lines and you have to remember the size of the 1st and 13th fleets. The traitors would have taken a beating even in orbit, not to mention the RG Sallies IH remnants would be on route with the 1st and 13th so it's not a simple battle of numbers. Every traitor ship lost could contain 1000 legionaries every ship could contain Spartans fellblades thunderhawks etc. Every ship lost is fuel ammo and kit and soldiers taken out if play. Even the Deamons can't be sustained to long on terra Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Also the logistical problem of getting all the troops off of the ground onto the traitor ships again while under the guns of the loyalist fleets. Not to mention that boarding actions would be quite successful as the majority of troops are on the ground. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Its the difference between "winning" and winning but losing every thing you brought to the party. Fighting a war on two fronts is never a good tactical situation to be in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 ^^^^this Horus still needs to control the imperium after terra falls, if he took terra killed the big e and reinforced himself on the throne world he could easily take out the leftovers but in that situation he has no foothold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Logically, there is no way they hold the majority of the planet. Earth has roughly 510 square kilometers of surface area, the majority of which is covered by massive hive sprawls with trillions of residents. The Imperial Palace alone stretches from the Hindu Kush the the Indus Delta, with the palace complex situated in the Himalayas where the mountains have been geoformed into walls to rival the greatest Vauban fortresses of the Imperial Era in Europe. The traitors focus has always been on the palace itself, meaning the rest of the world would largely be untouched. Maybe the strategic industrial zones like Brazil, Germany, and the Pacific Ocean floor would be targeted from orbit to prevent encirclement, but even if every Traitor Legion attacks Earth at 50% of their original strength with a ratio of 1:10,000 Legionaries to mortal troops and the combined power of the Dark Mechanicum and Traitor titan legions that is still only enough people (at the population density of Houston Texas) to cover (maybe) all of the Indian Subcontinent.The traitors breached the walls, but didn't make it to the Throneroom. Since the Throneroom has never been mentioned as having a complement of teleporter arrays, it is safe to assume there were chunks of the palace left firmly in Imperial Hands. In Vengeful Spirit it talks about the Hegemon, basically the Administrat complex, and that Dorn left it unfortified because if the traitors made it that far the palace had been overwhelmed. Again, I would assume we will see the traitors flooding the palace so Graham McNeill can make the Imperial Fists look stupid (as he likes to do) but won't have been able to breach the palace vaults. Edit: For anyone interested, Ahriman's Aide on the 1st Expedition Forums has done a really great Air Power security analysis essay on the Siege of Terra. The level of quality is on par with the Senate Committee's analysis of the Syrian Air Defenses last summer, and the writing is much smoother than most of the stuff put out by a lot of the security think tanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I really hope it's Little Horus who shuts them down. It was so sad to see him side with Horus but in the short story he quite plainly is haunted by his choice. Honestly as long as that's his last action (other than maybe fighting abbadon as was said above), I would be very happy indeed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I think the shields will be lowered by Sevatar, Lorgar, Ahriman, Delvarus, Perturabo, Kor Phaeron, Magnus, Lotarra, and Alpharius while they all hug one another and cry about how sad they are for betraying the Emperor. THERE IS GOOD IN ALL OF THEM! THERE IS! EVERY THORN HAS ITS ROSE! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I think the shields will be lowered by Sevatar, Lorgar, Ahriman, Delvarus, Perturabo, Kor Phaeron, Magnus, Lotarra, and Alpharius while they all hug one another and cry about how sad they are for betraying the Emperor. THERE IS GOOD IN ALL OF THEM! THERE IS! EVERY THORN HAS ITS ROSE! kuuum ba yaah My Emperor kuuum ba yaaaah Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I think the shields will be lowered by Sevatar, Lorgar, Ahriman, Delvarus, Perturabo, Kor Phaeron, Magnus, Lotarra, and Alpharius while they all hug one another and cry about how sad they are for betraying the Emperor. THERE IS GOOD IN ALL OF THEM! THERE IS! EVERY THORN HAS ITS ROSE! *shrugs* Hey it's better than mustache twirlers! I think the shields will be lowered by Sevatar, Lorgar, Ahriman, Delvarus, Perturabo, Kor Phaeron, Magnus, Lotarra, and Alpharius while they all hug one another and cry about how sad they are for betraying the Emperor. THERE IS GOOD IN ALL OF THEM! THERE IS! EVERY THORN HAS ITS ROSE! kuuum ba yaah My Emperor kuuum ba yaaaah There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt. Prepare to be purged heretic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 More seriously, why would it shock anyone if Horus, the Primarch who, to quote Cormac Airt, "would suffocate if there wasn't enough glory in the air around him" wanted to fight the Emperor mano e mano and lowered the shields himself? 'And then I sat on my ship and watched the orbital barrages kill my father' is hardly befitting the legend of the Conqueror of the Galaxy and New Master of Mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 More seriously, why would it shock anyone if Horus, the Primarch who, to quote Cormac Airt, "would suffocate if there wasn't enough glory in the air around him" wanted to fight the Emperor mano e mano and lowered the shields himself? 'And then I sat on my ship and watched the orbital barrages kill the my father' is hardly befitting the legend of the Conqueror of the Galaxy and New Master if Mankind. Horus says in Vengeful Spirit the only way it ends is by facing his father on equal footing. Apparently, the Emperor received power from the Chaos Gods because he tricked them and now he can't go near the Warp Gate on Molech because they could strip the power they gave him away. Horus, on the other hand, spent an unspecified amount of time in the Warp taking power from the Chaos Gods by force with the Red Angel as his friendly Daemon GPS. I don't know what angle they are going for, but I suspect the Horus Heresy has less to do with Chaos wanting to rule the galaxy, as I think they Gods could care less, and more to do with taking back the power they gave to the Emperor because he is using it to weaken them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Maybe, but Horus isn't stupid. There would have to be absolutely no doubt in his mind that he would win the duel, and still be in good enough shape to ascend the throne afterwards. Horus Aximand lowering the shields is so much better from a story perspective, especially if he's found by Abaddon just before he hits the button, held at gun point, dramatic speech ensues, he hits the button, then Abaddon and his termy squad blow Little Horus away. Gaining absolution through sacrifice. Though the other part of me feels that Loken really does need to take some serious scalps sometime soon, as does Garro, and there really aren't many traitor characters left that can actually be killed in the Heresy. Actually Aximand is the only main traitor character that I can think of that is expendable. Of course it is entirely possible that Loken and/or Garro won't be present at the final confrontation. Just as long as it isn't anything even close to a "I am Alpharius" moment. More seriously, why would it shock anyone if Horus, the Primarch who, to quote Cormac Airt, "would suffocate if there wasn't enough glory in the air around him" wanted to fight the Emperor mano e mano and lowered the shields himself?'And then I sat on my ship and watched the orbital barrages kill the my father' is hardly befitting the legend of the Conqueror of the Galaxy and New Master if Mankind. Horus says in Vengeful Spirit the only way it ends is by facing his father on equal footing. Apparently, the Emperor received power from the Chaos Gods because he tricked them and now he can't go near the Warp Gate on Molech because they could strip the power they gave him away. Horus, on the other hand, spent an unspecified amount of time in the Warp taking power from the Chaos Gods by force with the Red Angel as his friendly Daemon GPS. I don't know what angle they are going for, but I suspect the Horus Heresy has less to do with Chaos wanting to rule the galaxy, as I think they Gods could care less, and more to do with taking back the power they gave to the Emperor because he is using it to weaken them. I was under the impression that he gained knowledge from the Chaos Gods, not power in itself. The knowledge on how to create souls in particular. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Knowledge IS power and all that. It's why I'm studying for finals on a Friday between checking muh forums :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3672995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Knowledge IS power and all that. It's why I'm studying for finals on a Friday between checking muh forums :D Why aren't you fratting it up? Use the test bank bro Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3673001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 No test bank for my classes unfortunately :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3673007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekim_Trub Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I would of imagined those three Legions (even if they are under-strength) assaulting your rear guard would be hard to withstand as both Guilliman and The Lion are already established as master tacticians and strategists, and well I would guess Russ and the Wolves would be in full on "destroy everyone & protect Daddy" mode. So you have a Primarch and Legion already known for their ability to fight other Legions coming at you full on from the rear while two Legions known for their tactical brilliance support them and adapt to the mess left behind their assault. Pretty much the worst Legions to have chapping on the back door when your busy out front I would say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3673013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted May 3, 2014 Author Share Posted May 3, 2014 I would of imagined those three Legions (even if they are under-strength) assaulting your rear guard would be hard to withstand as both Guilliman and The Lion are already established as master tacticians and strategists, and well I would guess Russ and the Wolves would be in full on "destroy everyone & protect Daddy" mode. So you have a Primarch and Legion already known for their ability to fight other Legions coming at you full on from the rear while two Legions known for their tactical brilliance support them and adapt to the mess left behind their assault. Pretty much the worst Legions to have chapping on the back door when your busy out front I would say. Horus knew about their arrival before they got there so he had ample time to reconfigure his fleet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3673016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 The DA's new warp jump device/daemon/xenos kind of negates any fleet ambush or blockade Horus could set up. We don't actually see it happen but it's heavily implied that that was how the DA won the Thramas Crusade and routed the Night Lords. Of course that's assuming the device survives the upcoming Imperium Secundus adventures and Sotha. Also in the old fluff didn't the reinforcement Legions arrive way ahead of schedule? Either way, would anyone really want to be facing the Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Space Wolves together? Especially with the allies* Horus had behind him. *read as liabilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3673021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Interestingly enough, I have now adopted the opinion that it would be cool if ALL the Legions were at Terra in some capacity. I could see the Morragul Clan and Raven Guard playing a part in the defense of the Palace, and it isn't far off to assume that in a series where all the main characters can't die that Vulkan could come back to life and rally the Salamanders to participate in the siege as well. The Ultramarines, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves could do their part too. Maybe it won't be every Legion manning the walls, but it would be really cool for Terra to become the conflict in human history with every legion throwing itself at one another until each legion is down to a few tens of thousands (to make sense of the numbers of second founding chapters and the fact that Heresy veterans are few and far between in the Eye). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3673028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Though the other part of me feels that Loken really does need to take some serious scalps sometime soon, as does Garro... This one is easy to fix. Graham McNeil could do an entire novel about the Emperor's Children at the Siege, starting with Garro killing Lucius, then he resurrects and Loken kills him, and so on and so forth until all the Knights Errant have killed him at least once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290533-the-lowering-of-the-vengeful-spirits-void-shields/#findComment-3673029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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