who wants a 3++ on PAGK?

[Hidicul]

So I just had a thought that had me laughing at the looks of shock on our opponents faces. For 155 points we can ally in DA scouts and a Libby with a PFG. Stick them behind a squad of sword bearing GKS and we have a 3+/3++ or a 2+/3++ squad. For another 80 points we could add a Tech marine with another PFG. Great for holding objectives or foot slooging up the board.

 

I know this means that we put even less units on the board and the scouts aren't scoring, but isn't that 3++ actually worth those drawback? What are your guys thoughts?

[shortysl]

I'm confused. Where does the 2+/3++ come from with power armoured Grey Knights?

 

Scouts have Scout Armour giving them a 4+ Armour Save, the Power Field Generator provides a 4+ Invulnerable Save to friendly models within 3" and the Librarian has power armour.

 

It seems the Grey Knights would have a 3+/4++ at best while the Scouts would get a 4+ armour or a 4+ Obscured Save.

 

Am I missing something?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

+1 to Inv. due to Nemesis Force Sword, presumably.

[Lucien Eilam]

The problem with it is the same one the Dark Angels have. Anything that gets close also gets a 4++, except they didn't have to pay for it and it's usually benefitting cheaper, more numerous models than yours.

 

Also, your opponent's plan for dealing with Grey Knights infantry will often rely on volume of fire as much as AP, so it may not even change much in your favour.

 

For example, imagine getting shot up with massed bolter or lasgun fire, then tied up by a Cultist or Conscript blob. You just paid for his tarpit.

[Gentlemanloser]

Bought this up back when the Dangel Codex was released. ;)

 

It's good for a tarpit, but as said, giving 4++ t your opponents really negates the army wide Force Weapon bonus.

 

You're better off allying Doc Grotsnic and making Cyb-ork Grey Knights (until thier new Codex finally hits and stops this).

[Hidicul]

2+ was refrance to terms. Sine we aren't brothers with DA the PFG won't be in the squad so it won't be hard to keep that benefit away from your opponent.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The nemesis force sword bonus only applies in melee. So none of the problem units (Riptides, Heldrakes, Russes etc) care about it. In melee, Strike Knights die to massed attacks. 

 

Dangles aren't really a good Ally choice for us. They're overpriced compared to normal Marines, and none of their specialist units really interest us (plasma cannon Troop Terminators is fun but Deathwing are very pricey). 

[Gentlemanloser]

Belial makes a better Mordrak.

 

Plus they get 65 Point Libbies and Sniper Scouts.

 

So there are some uses for them as allies. ;)

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, what could a faction with problems with long range tank killing get from the shooty marine codex.....

 

Well, a ravenwing support squadron with say... 3typhoons comes in at about the cheapest price of a TDA squad, and gives an impressive six missiles a turn for busting tanks. A Tactical squad with a TLLC/Las-plas razorback and a Lascannon runs 165....  95 for the divination libby and powerfield, and call it 225pts for the landspeeders, or 150 if you only want the pair, and youll have added alot of anti-tank to your force, and given them a nice firm resistance to baledrakes and the like.

[CovertToaster]

Belial makes a better Mordrak.

Plus they get 65 Point Libbies and Sniper Scouts.

So there are some uses for them as allies.

Unfortunately DA are forced to pay an extra point for scouts vs C:SM so if you don't want sniper scouts then you don't want DA scouts. Also with the myriad of ways that cover saves can be negated (marker lights, thunder fire cannon, whirlwinds, baledrakes) there is no real point in paying for camo cloaks or playing DA scouts at all. C:SM scout hordes may have a place with scout bikes and LS storms but objective camping scouts with sniper rifles really need your opponents to field expensive, elite infantry, with no transport to prey on.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Belial makes a better Libby with teleport homer

fixed. Belial and Mordy the Herpa Derp never belong in the same sentence :)

Plus they get 65 Point Libbies and Sniper Scouts.

So do Red Hunters. What's your point Vanessa?

So there are some uses for them as allies.

If you like plasma, sure. If you don't, not to much. They pay a huge premium for just about everything, and now that Red Hunters and Inquisition exist, I'm not sure we have much use for them as Allies.

Well, a ravenwing support squadron with say... 3typhoons comes in at about the cheapest price of a TDA squad, and gives an impressive six missiles a turn for busting tanks. A Tactical squad with a TLLC/Las-plas razorback and a Lascannon runs 165.... 95 for the divination libby and powerfield, and call it 225pts for the landspeeders, or 150 if you only want the pair, and youll have added alot of anti-tank to your force, and given them a nice firm resistance to baledrakes and the like.

Oh gee yeah, I really want fragile and expensive AV10 2HP vehicles to rely on for anti-tank. Standard autocannon-type weaponry gets rid of them in a turn, nevermind proper anti-tank.

Razorbacks can be obtained far more cheaply with Henchmen, Not interested.

PFG is a double-edged sword, it's great until they get into melee with you. Also, I wouldn't call a 4+ invul a resistance to Heldrakes. It's more of a soft chocolate coating the Drake has to burn through twice to get at the gooey centre of Marines. The only true resistance to Heldrakes is Interceptor firepower or a Flyer of your own with good anti-tank. Both of which we can get without Allies (and these days, our Raven is looking pretty good next to the now 170pt Vendettas Guard have).

Unfortunately DA are forced to pay an extra point for scouts vs C:SM so if you don't want sniper scouts then you don't want DA scouts. Also with the myriad of ways that cover saves can be negated (marker lights, thunder fire cannon, whirlwinds, baledrakes) there is no real point in paying for camo cloaks or playing DA scouts at all. C:SM scout hordes may have a place with scout bikes and LS storms but objective camping scouts with sniper rifles really need your opponents to field expensive, elite infantry, with no transport to prey on.

Exactly. Why would we bother with DA Scouts when Red Hunter Scouts do the same thing (min Troops choice haha) more cheaply?

[Grey Mage]

Because not everyone has cover ignoring AP4 or better weaponry... and if they do, theyre usually putting resources into killing a 75pt squad that they could have put into killing the same number of PAGKs that you want to stay alive more. So whether they live or die, they do their job.

 

Also... theyre good vs monstrous creatures at range. Theyre better than a psycannon vs Wraithknights, and at a longer range. How is that not good?

And oh goodness... its not complete immunity to a helldrake, its worthless! Oh no! If you want to just roll over an opponent with no chance of failure, dice games are not for you. A 4++ save is far better than most units would get vs a helldrake. And yeah, if the enemy unit is close enough they can get the save too... which is why you dont put it close enough. Pretty simple.

As for the AV 11 units... minim cost on a henchmen unit is 12pts, and then youve got another 80 for the razorback- which doesnt get a 5+ cover save just for lazily drifting to the left. 6 HPs for the unit is likewise more survivable than a pair of razorbacks, and provides more volume of fire than three razorbacks *the equivalent points* and most importantly its not taking any elite slots you might want to use on... anything besides henchmen.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Because not everyone has cover ignoring AP4 or better weaponry... and if they do, theyre usually putting resources into killing a 75pt squad that they could have put into killing the same number of PAGKs that you want to stay alive more. So whether they live or die, they do their job.

Very few armies don't have an AP4 cover ignoring weapon. Those that don't, Ally one usually. Also, Scouts are mostly useless, so your opponent has no problem ignoring them till late game (when your Knights are dead and their piddly sniper rifles can't win you the game). 

 

Also... theyre good vs monstrous creatures at range. Theyre better than a psycannon vs Wraithknights, and at a longer range. How is that not good?

BS3, needing Rends to get through armour, cover saves thwart their shots anyway...

>better than a psycannon

Nope

 

And oh goodness... its not complete immunity to a helldrake, its worthless! Oh no! If you want to just roll over an opponent with no chance of failure, dice games are not for you. A 4++ save is far better than most units would get vs a helldrake. And yeah, if the enemy unit is close enough they can get the save too... which is why you dont put it close enough. Pretty simple.

True, but its still just a 4+. Which means the drake still burninates half the unit, instead of most. Hence my point that its not that big a deal, and why killing the drake either when it enters (with Interceptor firepower) or with your own Flyer (ie Skyfire) is a better strategy. If the drake is dead it can't kill anything. 

In the example given the PFG was being used to shield a unit trying to get into enemy lines. I was making the point that when battle is joined, you'll end up shielding the enemy without very careful positioning of the Libby. 

 

As for the AV 11 units... minim cost on a henchmen unit is 12pts, and then youve got another 80 for the razorback- which doesnt get a 5+ cover save just for lazily drifting to the left. 6 HPs for the unit is likewise more survivable than a pair of razorbacks, and provides more volume of fire than three razorbacks *the equivalent points* and most importantly its not taking any elite slots you might want to use on... anything besides henchmen.

>taking up Elite slots

That doesn't happen, because by definition, if you take Henchmen at all, you take Coteaz to make them Troops. 

Landspeeders do have more dakka, but AV10 is just so pathetically easy to kill in 6th. Even AV11 requires a 5+ on S6 and a 4+ for S7, so it's got slightly better odds (still not great mind you). That extra HP could make a difference, and you also get the secondary benefit of the 3-man scoring unit inside (or deployed elsewhere if need be).