Clone Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I love the imperial knight. I think it's awesome and when I first saw the model I wanted to convert it to chaos. But alas, chaos can't ally with them but what's this; imperial guard can? Great I can use my traitor guard and a daemon knight ally, hell maybe even a renegade inquisitor! It's even in the fluff that there are daemon knights about. But then I bring my ideas to my friends who are staunch eldar, taudar and grey knight allied with grav centurions players (who all also ally in their own knights). I am thus told that chaos don't use knights. I explain the ally chart and show them the fluff in the codex but still "chaos can't use knights, they're mortal enemies", I say "but it'd be a daemon knight, I'm not breaking the rules it's just I'll paint them differently". The answer is still the same. What is a chaos lord to do? I'm feeling totally frustrated that everyone else gets to use their ally matrix but I'm not because chaos. I might just paint them as loyal dogs to the imperium but then I would feel like I've cheated myself. Sigh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Your friends are wrong.Chaos has entire renegade Knight households, devoted to different gods, or just running amok. This has been in the fluff for 20+ years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I love the imperial knight. I think it's awesome and when I first saw the model I wanted to convert it to chaos. But alas, chaos can't ally with them but what's this; imperial guard can? Great I can use my traitor guard and a daemon knight ally, hell maybe even a renegade inquisitor! It's even in the fluff that there are daemon knights about. But then I bring my ideas to my friends who are staunch eldar, taudar and grey knight allied with grav centurions players (who all also ally in their own knights). I am thus told that chaos don't use knights. I explain the ally chart and show them the fluff in the codex but still "chaos can't use knights, they're mortal enemies", I say "but it'd be a daemon knight, I'm not breaking the rules it's just I'll paint them differently". The answer is still the same. What is a chaos lord to do? I'm feeling totally frustrated that everyone else gets to use their ally matrix but I'm not because chaos. I might just paint them as loyal dogs to the imperium but then I would feel like I've cheated myself. Sigh. So your friend who is using the proscribed cheese lists is not letting you use a Knight for a Guardsmen army all because you call it "Chaos"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Your friends need to get a grip, or you need new friends. As you can legally take a knight by using IG as your primary detachment, then ally in some Chaos, and an inquisitor if you please, they can't really complain. It's also in the fluff that some knight households turned to chaos, tell them to read the timeline in codex imperial knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 I love the imperial knight. I think it's awesome and when I first saw the model I wanted to convert it to chaos. But alas, chaos can't ally with them but what's this; imperial guard can? Great I can use my traitor guard and a daemon knight ally, hell maybe even a renegade inquisitor! It's even in the fluff that there are daemon knights about. But then I bring my ideas to my friends who are staunch eldar, taudar and grey knight allied with grav centurions players (who all also ally in their own knights). I am thus told that chaos don't use knights. I explain the ally chart and show them the fluff in the codex but still "chaos can't use knights, they're mortal enemies", I say "but it'd be a daemon knight, I'm not breaking the rules it's just I'll paint them differently". The answer is still the same. What is a chaos lord to do? I'm feeling totally frustrated that everyone else gets to use their ally matrix but I'm not because chaos. I might just paint them as loyal dogs to the imperium but then I would feel like I've cheated myself. Sigh. So your friend who is using the proscribed cheese lists is not letting you use a Knight for a Guardsmen army all because you call it "Chaos"?Pretty much. He cited fluff reasons but like Grey Mage had said, his fluff is wrong. I'd rather have a fun game and I've had no problems with the guy till now so I feel inclined to just wait for forgeworld. Or I could play the same game as him. When he uses a counts as draigo and tigurius, I could say those aren't the official models so you can't use them but then I'm at risk of destroying the spirit of the game. Not sure how far I should press the issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 As you can legally take a knight by using IG as your primary detachment, then ally in some Chaos, and an inquisitor if you please, they can't really complain. All perfectly legal. If they won't listen to reason, backed by fluff, go all rules lawyer. It's the only way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Sounds like he doesn't want you to have nice shiny toys in case you win or something. Show him the relevant fluff in the codex, then show him the ally matrix showing you're legally allowed to take it and forewarn him that in your next game you WILL be taking one. If he doesn't want to play against you then it doesn't sound like a great loss. EDIT: You know I'm so grateful for the group I play against. we really don't care much if the rules get in the way of having fun, and no one would ever say someone else couldn't use their nice shiny new toy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 What AngelsAbsolute said. Seeing as how they are apparently all taking the cherry picked power lists, it seems a little petty to disallow you your own Knight Titan. They seem to have no problem pushing the issue so far that it causes you stress. If someone protested that heavily (and seemingly against reason) I'd have to stop and just ask them plainly "Why are you so dead set against me taking this?" Seems to me the quickest way to resolve this issue is just to cut out all of the extraneous stuff and ask this person directly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Yeah, honestly your friend doesn't sound like mich of a friend. An acquintance maybe. But honestly, ask him about House Devine. And if he says that's new, point out that House Devine has been around longer than the Codex: Grey Knights. If that fails, go rules lawyer. You ARE playing an Imperial Guard/Astra Militarium army. Knights CAN ally with the IG/AM. So, if you WANT to play IG with Knights and call them Chaos, then you ARE going to do it. Either your friend can accept the fluff, the pain in the butt rules lawyering, or you can find someone who is willing to accept the first or second option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 jsut so were clear this inst because you want chaos space marines and imperial knights in the same list (should be allowed, isnt, but house rules rock) Its because you have an imperial guard army, want to take a knight in it, and your "friend" is bitching about the paint scheme/ conversion? thats not a friend thats a git Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 You can back up your argument with printed words. Can he do the same? No matter what he thinks it says, what is not written down does not exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Simple solution. Tell him you no longer want to use allies, fortifications or Lords of War in any games. See how quickly he changes his mind. Or just play small points games so he can't use his. But it sounds more like he's being a fool. It would be easy for Alpha Legion agents to convince an Imperial Knight to fight for them. It's called deception Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Apostle_XVII Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Totally agree with the above. And to be honest, if I was playing against a fellow chaos player who wanted to use a chaos imperial knight I would not even care if they scrapped the allies chart completely. Ally to Daemons or CSM, it fits the fluff and would not bother me, especially if you have gone to the lengths to convert it - there are some amazing chaos knights around. Fortunately the guys I will be playing with are all as relaxed as this, which is great as I want a knight myself and was put off the £85 price tag for something I might not even use as I was unsure how people feel about bending the rules to use awesome models. But seriously though, it sounds like they are too uptight to let you do that but using it with imperial guard is perfectly legal; it's only the codex you use not what you make them - I'm trivialising now but you could build a counts as CSM army with any SM codex and include it and I am sure people do just to get round the rules but my point is, the allies matrix only gives you codex's you can use alongside one another, what you do with the models after that is irrelevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I do like to point out one thing , that why totaly legal to take IG+Knights+CSM in a single list , does anyone know what interaction apocalyps level ally have when they are in the same force ? We know what BB do , we know what the other too tiers do. All the rules we have about apo ally , is that they can't be primary+secondary in the same list[nothing said about both of them being secondary]. What happens if you chaos sorc buffs a knight or casts invisibility on him ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 You want to use IG with Knights. That is 100% legal regardless of what the paint job is. The paint scheme isn't WYSIWYG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm just going to get a knight and use it regardless. If I'm told I can't use it because of bad fluff reasons I'll say he can't use his knight or any other allies to make the game even and everything will have to be WYSIWYG. I can find so many sources about inquisitors, IG regiments, space marine chapters, titan legions and knight households that have fallen to chaos. This whole thing is really winding me up. I just don't see what some people have against chaos. It's not like we have a top tier codex. If everyone is OK with taudar and eldar plus knights, what's wrong with chaos? Maybe I'll roll up with my tau army, take multiple riptides and a knight too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 It's my understanding that all parts have separate interactions that must jive as a whole. So you could take IG with CSM allies, or IG with Knight allies, but if you try to take all three it's nullified because CSM and Knights are Come the Apocalypse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 It's my understanding that all parts have separate interactions that must jive as a whole. So you could take IG with CSM allies, or IG with Knight allies, but if you try to take all three it's nullified because CSM and Knights are Come the Apocalypse. What he is taking from the OP is a C:AM army with C:IK knight and possibly a C:I inqusitor. All parts are compatable. He wants to call them Traitor Guard with a Daemon Knight and a possible renegade Inquisitor but his "friends" say he can't do that because fluff. However he could call them My Little Ponies with a Rainbow Bright knight and Strawberry Shortcake Inquisitor if he wanted and it would all be within the rules since fluf is not rules. Worse still, their "because fluff" argument is flawed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 It's my understanding that all parts have separate interactions that must jive as a whole. So you could take IG with CSM allies, or IG with Knight allies, but if you try to take all three it's nullified because CSM and Knights are Come the Apocalypse. What he is taking from the OP is a C:AM army with C:IK knight and possibly a C:I inqusitor. All parts are compatable. He wants to call them Traitor Guard with a Daemon Knight and a possible renegade Inquisitor but his "friends" say he can't do that because fluff. However he could call them My Little Ponies with a Rainbow Bright knight and Strawberry Shortcake Inquisitor if he wanted and it would all be within the rules since fluf is not rules. Worse still, their "because fluff" argument is flawed. I guess I should have quoted the Jeske, who was talking about Knight formations and CSM allies both in an IG prime list. But yeah, refusing to play against Traitor Guard and Fallen Knights who have fully legal lists "because fluff" is a weak thing to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I suppose I'm pretty lucky in that the people I play with aren't like that. They suggested I get a Knight for my Chaos-I just think they're widely impractical (like titans in general)-I guess you'd call it a "fluff hangup". That said, I don't like playing against an ascendant C'tan because for a "gargantuan creature" he's smaller than a Riptide. And the guy who uses him is known for "Buying Power" (he did it a lot in MTG too.) If it was...like Khorne Tractor big, I'd have no problem with it. I'm thinking about converting my Defiler into a Brass Scorpion...though I still have a bit of hope that the Slaughterfiend will get updated rules...because it seemed so awesome (Defiler with Khorne Beserker stats) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yak Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 You could always just kill all your friends.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 You could always just kill all your friends.... I like this idea, seems most practical and you can make a sacrifice for your false gods at the same time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Indeed sometimes the excuse of lore is used by people who are unimaginative or plain scared of their adversary actually having a chance. I have seen this thing a lot of times, "the fluff says"... and "what the codex says" are paraded as the ultimate truths and thus for us who are way, way, way more steeped in the knowledge of the background things become sour. It is that most players get their only fill of background from the army books they own, so they are unwilling to open their small minds to something that is for them "a paragraph in an obscure book, which they don't own or cannot afford", miring them into a vice circle, what they don't know, they fear. And GW is not helping at that. We know of House Devine, we know of Traitor Titan Legions and of whole conclaves of the Dark Mechanicus, yet as per rules we of Chaos cannot field a single Knight. There was an opening with the mention of the Daemonic Knights in the IK Codex yet to what avail. And then you can take the Imperial Guard as main, opening the Imperial Knight option... and look, you cannot have traitor guard... Why? Because in every FRAGGING GW book there is only the Imperium or the bad guys, the meshes inbetween are conveniently forgotten for the fiction is written to promote and sell models instead of actually providing the reader with a sense for the 40k universe. I call it the "bad guy syndrome" we are cast into a single image, that image is exported to the model range and all the background that does not promote the sell of a model is sidelined in a mere notion in some obscure novel. The result? You'z Chaozz, you'z evil, you'z not imperial so no knight... because if FRAGGING IMPERIAL KNIGHT... The same concept applies to Scions, to the Imperial Guard (not even a faint notion of traitor guard in a book which should be used by both factions...) and so on, literally forcing us and our armies into a stereotype of the... bad guy who only does bad guy things. And you know, bar the Lost and the Damned from FW, GW has five years so far failed to acknowledge the veritable existence of traitor guard, traitor mechanicus and traitor inquisitors. In all the books like Inquisition, Astra Militarum, Imperial Knights and more, not a single model in the gallery had a chaos star on it. Despite being allowed to field the Astra Militarum as an ally to Chaos Space Marines means that we field none other than the traitor guard. In the end, we are in a vicious circle of which it is Chaos that suffers the most. Expect such cases to become the norm as more and more pieces of our background is sidelined in favor of presenting Chaos as a cartoon villain faction. When you forego certain elements of the background, those same elements will first become a sidenote, than an arcane thing until they will be lost to posterity. And at this stage bar Chaos Space Marines, Cultists and Chaos Daemons, the rest of the chaos background is conveniently forgotten, leading to incidents such as the one in this topic. PS: Kill them with your daemonic sword, resurrect them and then repeat the process until they will understand that there is no messing with the will of the Dark Gods! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodusXIII Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 So, to sum up: IG w/ IK = OK IG w/ IK and SM (count as CSM) = OK IG w/ IK and CSM = illegal If your friends are not allowing (1) or (2) because of "fluff reasons", then yes they're being jerks. If they're not allowing (3), it's because (3) technically isn't a legal list and they're within their rights to refuse to play it. They should still call a spade a spade, rather than hiding behind fluff reasons. No matter what spammy, overpowered, cheese-brained list someone comes up with, if it's legal it's legal. No matter how great, fluffy, awesomely-converted an army you come up with, if it's illegal it's illegal. House rules are optional, and everyone has the right to follow Rules As Written if they so desire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Your friends need to get a grip, or you need new friends. As you can legally take a knight by using IG as your primary detachment, then ally in some Chaos, and an inquisitor if you please, they can't really complain. It's also in the fluff that some knight households turned to chaos, tell them to read the timeline in codex imperial knights. Just to be clear, this is not currently legal. All various detachments in your army interact according to the ally chart, and the ally chart interaction for desperate allies is 'cannot be fielded in the same army shy of APO missions'. That may change in a month with the new allies chart for 7th ed (or 6.5 or whatever), and frankly any reasonable friendly gaming group should allow it, and it's certainly supported by the fluff, and FW is sure to be along with chaos knights soon enough, but it's not currently legal with a chaos detachment in there. Of course, I'm not even sure there's going to be a 40k in a month, what with GW going the nuclear option and removing the force org chart as a requirement altogether. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290639-when-friends-clash-over-rules/#findComment-3675672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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