Our time to shine?

[Excessus]

 

Check out the latest FAQ for ahriman

 

He can cast up to 15 witchfires a turn.

Well if you cram in as many mastery levels as possible and take only witchfire powers then yeah he can technically cast each of the 5 three times LOL...I might try that tomorrow!

 

Would be much more fun if he had a familiar...since the familiar haven't been FAQ:ed! :P

[elithren]

With the new access to Daemonology, I'd consider taking Santic over malefic.  Sure the primaris sucks unless you're playing against daemons, but 1-4 are all warp charge 1 which minimizes the risk of double perils and can go along way to buff up our guys. Hammerhand for the +2 S or sanctuary for 3++ rubics.  Heck, purge soul can have it's uses.  Gate can be useful to get our slow moving brothers either out of combat distance or into the enemy backfield.

 

Also, we can take a lord now and put him on a disc instead or a sorc and not have to worry about scoring units (apart from some cultists) since the rubrics score on their own now. Chaos lord with mark, dual claws, disk, and sigil is 165 ( 155 if you go with aura instead).  Gives you 6 ap3 reroll wound attacks on the charge, 5 each round after at WS 6, S 4, and T5.  All with the lovely I 5.

[Iron_Within]

Maybe I'm being daft but Thousand Sons backed up by daemons sounds brilliant now. Ahrihman, a Level 3 Tzeentch Sorcerer (because we're no longer penalized for having a mark), 4 units of Thousand Sons and then back this up with a Combined arms contingent of Tzeentch Daemons. This effectively becomes a very nasty shooty army, or you could go all out summoning and use the Aspiring Sorcerers as sacrificial lamps to and hope for a Greater Daemon Summoning.

[Zeller]

Okay I'm not seeing how Ahriman can cast so many witchfires a turn. The FAQ says he can cast the same witchfire 3 times a turn. So I see at max 9?

[daboarder]

Okay I'm not seeing how Ahriman can cast so many witchfires a turn. The FAQ says he can cast the same witchfire 3 times a turn. So I see at max 9?

 He is ML4

Has tzeentchs primaris (witchfire) base and can get 4 more. thus having the option to fire 15 witchfires 

[MagnusPihl]

EDIT: Nevermind, I misread the last post. Carry on! 

[Ethrion]

 

Okay I'm not seeing how Ahriman can cast so many witchfires a turn. The FAQ says he can cast the same witchfire 3 times a turn. So I see at max 9?

 He is ML4

Has tzeentchs primaris (witchfire) base and can get 4 more. thus having the option to fire 15 witchfires 

 

It's rare, but it happens. But its rare.

[Marshal Goderic]

Maybe I'm being daft but Thousand Sons backed up by daemons sounds brilliant now. Ahrihman, a Level 3 Tzeentch Sorcerer (because we're no longer penalized for having a mark), 4 units of Thousand Sons and then back this up with a Combined arms contingent of Tzeentch Daemons. This effectively becomes a very nasty shooty army, or you could go all out summoning and use the Aspiring Sorcerers as sacrificial lamps to and hope for a Greater Daemon Summoning.

So, on the note of we are no longer penalized;

 

So the way I read the rules is that now we automatically generate the Primaris power from our God's discipline, which would satisfy our requirements that a Chaos Sorcerer with a mark of a god must generate a power from their God's discipline. As this is done automatically I do not believe that it takes up one of the powers that a psyker must generate for every mastery level they possess. So let me know if you guys agree with this but I believe my ML3 sorcerer can take the mark and auto generate the primeris power and then roll 3 times on biomancy or divination, when adding the force power, this means that he knows 5 powers. Furthermore, would our aspiring sorcerers then be able to roll once for one power other than the Tzeentch primaris? Making them appropriately awesome finally.

 

thoughts, comments, opinions?

[Ethrion]

 

Maybe I'm being daft but Thousand Sons backed up by daemons sounds brilliant now. Ahrihman, a Level 3 Tzeentch Sorcerer (because we're no longer penalized for having a mark), 4 units of Thousand Sons and then back this up with a Combined arms contingent of Tzeentch Daemons. This effectively becomes a very nasty shooty army, or you could go all out summoning and use the Aspiring Sorcerers as sacrificial lamps to and hope for a Greater Daemon Summoning.

So, on the note of we are no longer penalized;

 

So the way I read the rules is that now we automatically generate the Primaris power from our God's discipline, which would satisfy our requirements that a Chaos Sorcerer with a mark of a god must generate a power from their God's discipline. As this is done automatically I do not believe that it takes up one of the powers that a psyker must generate for every mastery level they possess. So let me know if you guys agree with this but I believe my ML3 sorcerer can take the mark and auto generate the primeris power and then roll 3 times on biomancy or divination, when adding the force power, this means that he knows 5 powers. Furthermore, would our aspiring sorcerers then be able to roll once for one power other than the Tzeentch primaris? Making them appropriately awesome finally.

 

thoughts, comments, opinions?

 

While I'd like it to be true the way it's worded is that a marked ML3 sorcerer gets the primaris of that lore for free. Then as the rule in the codex states he still has to roll/generate one from his mark's lore table. This then leaves 2 further powers that he can take from any other table that he has access too.

 

Getting the primaris for free now as a gift from the mark does not count towards his 1 power tax that he still has to pay. Nothing has changed really since last edition except we get an extra tzeentch power.

 

Similarly aspiring sorcerers would get the primaris for free and still have to make their roll on the tzeentch table.

[Excessus]

Also, aspiring sorcerers now can get the fun template to play around with! :)

[MyDaemonCallista]

I believe Ethrion is correct.

 

I had also wondered the same thing, but the RAW on pg 70 C:CSM specifies, 'If the psyker has a mark of chaos... they MUST ROLL at least one...of their powers on the table that corresponds to their patron deity.'

 

It's a pity, because I'd have liked the aspiring sorcerers to be able to take something other than Tzeentch!

[Marshal Goderic]

I think "must roll" is the equivalent of must generate, thus it is met by being auto generated. Just my 2 pence.  We all know how GW can't write rules to allow them to successfully disembark from a paper bag. Plus my meta has gone away from rules lawyering since escalation came out and this'll make TS more fun & challenging. 

"You can't do that!"

"I can so have this combination/do this controversial thing!"

"Ok, i'm bringing my titan then."

"..... nevermind..."

[daboarder]

yeah, roll is just archaic as when it was written it was the only way to generate a power

[Xenith]

I think "must roll" is the equivalent of must generate, thus it is met by being auto generated. 

 

You can think whatever you like, but 'must roll' means 'must roll'.

[JamesI]

 

I think "must roll" is the equivalent of must generate, thus it is met by being auto generated. 

 

You can think whatever you like, but 'must roll' means 'must roll'.

 

This is how we played it at my store tonight. 

 

But it was ok, the aspiring sorcerers didn;t cast much just really added to the dice pool for Ahriman to keep throwing powers around.

[Ethrion]

Ok ignore the wording of "must roll" for a second. The new rule for a mark of chaos gives the sorcerer the primaris for free, that's it. He hasn't generated it or anything, he just has it like he has the force card because he's carrying a force sword - it's an innate ability. Now you follow the rules from the chaos codex and it tells you to generate one of his mastery levels from the discipline of tzeentch.

 

We all want it to be different and you can twist and turn to try and make it read differently all you like (believe me I tried) but that's sadly not how it works.

[Excessus]

Marked sorcerers gets a god-primaris for free or else they would never be able to get a primaris for free, unlike every other psyker in the game. This doesn't change the fact that they need to roll one god power, on the contrary, it explains why it is like that...

[Aasfresser]

Ok ignore the wording of "must roll" for a second. The new rule for a mark of chaos gives the sorcerer the primaris for free, that's it. He hasn't generated it or anything, he just has it like he has the force card because he's carrying a force sword - it's an innate ability. Now you follow the rules from the chaos codex and it tells you to generate one of his mastery levels from the discipline of tzeentch.

 

We all want it to be different and you can twist and turn to try and make it read differently all you like (believe me I tried) but that's sadly not how it works.

 

 

Marked sorcerers gets a god-primaris for free or else they would never be able to get a primaris for free, unlike every other psyker in the game. This doesn't change the fact that they need to roll one god power, on the contrary, it explains why it is like that...

 

 

I read it exactly like this. Until its FAQed otherwise, I'm doomed to play it like that. I'm not happy about it, but at least we get a second witchfire on our asp. sorcs. that almost never will be used. To be honest, in 7th my asp. sorcerers never used spells so far, all WC were eaten up by the ML3 sorcerers with homunculi to buff TS squads. Once I tried to cast the tzeentch primaris with one die, but it was denied.

[Marshal Goderic]

Super glad I'm not required to play it like u guys plus the example in the chaos dex uses roll and generate interchangeably, plus we can only ever generate 2 powers from the god's lore meaning we would always be maxed out on god powers, sounds like another 'termies can only have one weapon option/ abby can't join any other units due to unique mark of chaos etc.' not to mention that using it in such a manner fixes our point imbalance and fluff issues. You guys have fun your way I'll have fun mine.

[Ethrion]

Super glad I'm not required to play it like u guys plus the example in the chaos dex uses roll and generate interchangeably, plus we can only ever generate 2 powers from the god's lore meaning we would always be maxed out on god powers, sounds like another 'termies can only have one weapon option/ abby can't join any other units due to unique mark of chaos etc.' not to mention that using it in such a manner fixes our point imbalance and fluff issues. You guys have fun your way I'll have fun mine.

The terminology of how GW uses roll or generate is irrelevant here. It's a question of does automatically being given the primaris as part of the mark count towards the roll/generate law that all marked sorcerers must adhere to and it is quite clear that it does not.

We would all like it to be different but it isn't, it's not a question of playing one option or the other with equal validity, one is the rules and one is making stuff up. We are just going by the rules of 7th edition and the chaos codex but as you said you go ahead and have fun doing whatever you like :)

[Xenith]

Super glad I'm not required to play it like u guys plus the example in the chaos dex uses roll and generate interchangeably

That may be so, but the Rulebook tells you how to generate powers, and that involves rolling dice.

After generating all of your powers (see the psychic focus section), then you get to see whether you benefit from focus.

[Dammeron]

Either way, aspiring sorcerers now have much more application, both as psychic defence and warp charge pool generators, and as mobile fire points for some extremely underrated witch-fire powers. Cast Tzeentch's Firestorm against the likes of orks, Tyranids or Eldar and watch them BURN. they also now have the capacity to cast the extremely nasty Breath of Chaos, which is a very decent witch-fire power that can eat units of Terminators and other heavily armoured infantry. Also, notice that Doombolt has gotten a bit of a shot in the arm in that beam type weapons no longer diminish in strength as they travel.

 

Combined in synergy with the likes of Ahriman or even simply Tzeentch marked sorcerers, Thousand Sons and Tzeentchian armies in general have gotten quite a shot in the arm simply thanks to the manner in which psychic powers work now and the introduction of the psychic phase. A sorcerer that rolls on the Sanctic Daemonology table and gains Gate of Infinity is having a laugh; you can simply jump around the battlefield with your Thousand Sons blatting the hell out of things (a regular opponent of mine did this recently with Ahriman. It was an hilarious, occult apocalypse for my army). Malefic Daemonology taken on a Daemon Prince or sorcerer with the Prophet of the Voices and a Possessed bodyguard becomes extremely useful, as you can opt for the summoning power and simply start creating packs of Pink Horrors to further fuel your psychic chicanery.

 

Allied to Tzeentchian Daemons, Thousand Sons armies truly come into their own; the amount if Warp Charge you can bring to bear and the sheer weight of psychic nonsense you can fling around makes them extremely nasty indeed. Also, bear in mind that your Flaming Chariot of Tzeentch is now the evil go-to unit it always should have been, and provides fittingly excellent support for Thousand Sons and their allies.

 

Biomancy also provides some truly excellent buffs for Thousand Sons; Endurance, Warp Speed; all excellent means of overcoming some of their innate weaknesses.

 

But Thousand Sons themselves are still a thinking player's unit; they are specific and expensive and require manipulation of synergy with other units (most notably sorcerers) to make them play well. Buff them, support them and they will certainly do the business; I know this much to my cost, as my regular opponent is an inveterate son of the Cyclops, and regularly takes my slaaneshi Severed Angels to town and back.

[daboarder]

Ok ignore the wording of "must roll" for a second. The new rule for a mark of chaos gives the sorcerer the primaris for free, that's it. He hasn't generated it or anything, he just has it like he has the force card because he's carrying a force sword - it's an innate ability. Now you follow the rules from the chaos codex and it tells you to generate one of his mastery levels from the discipline of tzeentch.

 

We all want it to be different and you can twist and turn to try and make it read differently all you like (believe me I tried) but that's sadly not how it works.

except the part where the chaos focus rle is under the "generating psychic powers" section of the BRB

[Ethrion]

 

Ok ignore the wording of "must roll" for a second. The new rule for a mark of chaos gives the sorcerer the primaris for free, that's it. He hasn't generated it or anything, he just has it like he has the force card because he's carrying a force sword - it's an innate ability. Now you follow the rules from the chaos codex and it tells you to generate one of his mastery levels from the discipline of tzeentch.

 

We all want it to be different and you can twist and turn to try and make it read differently all you like (believe me I tried) but that's sadly not how it works.

except the part where the chaos focus rle is under the "generating psychic powers" section of the BRB

 

I don't understand what that is supposed to prove, the chaos psychic focus paragraph simply says the sorcerer with the mark gets that lore's primaris automatically. It says nothing about that overruling the chaos space marine codex rule telling us we still have to make a roll on our mark's table.

 

No where does it say that getting it for free counts as that being a generated power. In fact column 2 paragraph 4 of page 22 says "If a psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that psyker will automatically know that discipline's primaris power..." And again in paragraph 5 "if a psyker has one or more weapons with the force speacial rule that psyker automatically knows the force psychic power..." That is exactly the same wording as the chaos sorcerer getting his mark's primaris automatically. It is just a bonus, an extra, a free power we are given just like an all biomancy sorcerer gets the biomancy primaris for free we get the tzeentch primaris for free. It does not count towards the number of powers rolled for or generated and no where does it say that it does count.

 

Psychic focus, force weapons and chaos marks give us a free power. If you say that the tzeentch primaris counts as a roll or a generated power then you have to say that a force weapon counts too, it is exactly the same concept.