Phoebus Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=708726099189284&id=225662387495660 Get ready for a duel between champions of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrahawk Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Yeah, that one also drew my attention. Really delighted to hear that A D-B is writing about the 1st Legion again. Hopefully we'll get a win out of our furry fellows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Nah. Almost every bit of fluff shows the Dark Angels key figure getting beat down (even though the DA win out in the end). It is a theme at this point. So, what we'll likely see is the DA Champ get beat to snot by the SW Champ...and then win on a technicality due to the undisciplined SW doing something ignoble that voids the victory. And so the bad blood continues to simmer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Very excited to have him writing for the First. He's been an outstanding author so far and I doubt that will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 It was funny in Unremembered Empire, to see the Wolf pack leader tell the Lion to appoint a Champion and the Lion said, "Nah, I'll fight you"... The "Oh Frak" on the Wolf's face... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Yes Brother Dean, I enjoyed that part too. It showed how truly ignoble the Primarch of the DA really is (as if him murdering one of his sons wasn't proof enough already :) ). The Wolf will lose. It has to. GW isn't selling enough robed marines so......... Regardless of that I have no doubt that it will be well done simply because all of the authors at BL are doing a phenomenal job. Both in bringing the hobby to life on the pages and in creating good science fiction. The fluff I grew up on changes a little (lot) here and there, but that adds to the depth of the mystery of 40K. Did the fluff change, was it a lie to begin with, or are we learning a new lie now? +by lie I mean purely fluff wise. The enigmas wrapped in puzzles surrounded by pure falsehoods that is the universe at it's darkest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 You say potato... I saw him take it himself for two reasons: One, as an insult to the wolves because it is a thing between brothers only and it is only the tempers of the Wolves who cannot let it go. Also a "Hey the universe is crumbling and you want to do this now?" Two, The Lion feels that this whole mess is his responsibility and he will just take the smack and move on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 @Brother Dean - I can totally see that side of the story as well. I wasn't trying to be rude or cause a fight in your forum (not a troll I swear). The Lion knows he is a demigod among mortals. For him to take the challenge and not appoint a champion did two things in my eyes: One, it shows that he is a bully that needs to "lord" over lesser men (even genetically engineered space faring Vikings ) Two, displayed a lack of trust in his own sons to rise to the challenge Did you get the feeling, while reading that part of the book, that the wolf was "unable to let it go" or did it seem like he was going through the motions as he was honor bound to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfax Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I can relate to the lack of trust argument, as it seems fitting for what I've read about the Lion so far. However on the other hand, what better representation for the Lion by doing the fight himself. Not too convinced by the bully part, it's after all the Lions honour that is at stake so if someone has a problem with him.. he might as well deal with it himself. In the end, no champion could represent the Lion better than himself (as person, and in combat prowess).. it is after all a fight between Russ and the Lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 That's a good point Cyfax. But on a normal (realistic) level. If a man challenged your honor in a fight and next week you beat his eight year old son, would your honor be assuaged? My point is the Primarchs are AT LEAST that far superior to marines and they know it. EDIT - to all reading my posts - I am just enjoying a good natured discussion about a story - if at any point anyone is offended please say so. I do know that people take their Chapter/Legions very seriously :) and I am not being sarcastic in any way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 We are far off topic yet so so near... I see it as an institutional Hubris of the Wolves. "We are the executioners, we can take him." And that hubris was shown the truth later by Konrad... The Lion does know that he is superior to a normal marine and what he did was the equivalent of grabbing the 8y/o son by the ear and sending him home to his father for kicking him in the shins... Remember the Wolves asked nay.. DEMANDED it in the first place in the presence of TWO primarchs... and got cuffed on the ear like the child that he was acting like. And your first post was just a touch inflamitory with the wording but this is turning fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Didn't the Lion just catch him in the air and toss him back to the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I have gotten to this yet, but you make it sound like the lion crashed his car into a playground and then started gunning down all the kids. Where what Dean posted sounded like the SW said "I am here to reclaim my father's honor, and to do so I will beat up one of your sons, pick one." Then the lion said "this is between your father and me. But I f you want to stand as proxy for your father, that is fine. I'll stand as my own proxy. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 It is all in your point of view... I reserve the right to amend my point of view when I get home and re-read this bit because I am still soaking up the way Konrad cuts through Ultras like butter. And the Wolves do stand up better to Konrad than Ultras do but they are still seriously outclassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I will apologize for the inflammatory post. I write and talk like that at times. I blame the brain damage LoL I don't see the Wolves having hubris as "we are executioners" by any stretch. I think it weighs on them all really. Maybe it's just the way I am reading it though. They are making war on their brothers. Think about that and think about how much honor plays a part in a marine's life. Do you honestly think all the Wolves take pride in killing their fellow marines? (off topic rant sorry) The honor duel was a legion thing between the SW and DA just as much as it was between the Lion and Russ. It should have been done between equals otherwise there is no honor to be had. EDIT - perhaps I should reread it as well then :) everyone is outclassed by Konrad he is shadow and steel, murder taken form LoL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 @Brother Dean - I can totally see that side of the story as well. I wasn't trying to be rude or cause a fight in your forum (not a troll I swear). The Lion knows he is a demigod among mortals. For him to take the challenge and not appoint a champion did two things in my eyes: One, it shows that he is a bully that needs to "lord" over lesser men (even genetically engineered space faring Vikings ) Two, displayed a lack of trust in his own sons to rise to the challenge Did you get the feeling, while reading that part of the book, that the wolf was "unable to let it go" or did it seem like he was going through the motions as he was honor bound to do? Hhmmm that's not how i saw it. It seemed to me that the Wolves interupted a meeting with his brother, Guilliman. The Lion had 400 astartes in pods overhead ready to assault. Tensions were high and some, no-one of a wolf captain thinks he has priority? No no. The Lion wanted to send a clear message and i think it worked. "You and your duel are not more important than Primarch business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I wouldn't say he was a bully. But I would definitely say he was being dishonorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 The Wolves would have seen it as also a Primarch vs Primarch business. The part that set the tone was Roboute turning to the Wolves and going: "Really? Really.... You are going to do this now?" They had been asked to reconsider once already by the Lord of McCragee... And he gave that message to the Lion in his greeting. The wolf was lucky to get out intact without anything major for the Apothicarion to work on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 The Wolves would have seen it as also a Primarch vs Primarch business. The part that set the tone was Roboute turning to the Wolves and going: "Really? Really.... You are going to do this now?" They had been asked to reconsider once already by the Lord of McCragee... And he gave that message to the Lion in his greeting. The wolf was lucky to get out intact without anything major for the Apothicarion to work on... I can see the wolves thinking that. Of course that doesn't mean the Lion thinks that also. You can't call him "dishonorable" for not wanting to placate some rude astarte from another chapter that had nothing to do with the matter at hand. remember the Lion went there to possibly kill Guilliman and raze him planet. Getting sidetracked by some Wolflord who thinks he's an equal to primarchs wouldn't stand. According to the old fluff it was the Wolf that held a grudge after there fight. The Lion had thought the matter over. If the wolves had any respect they would have approached DA captains and masters for their Duel... not the Primarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 The little things that caused me to form my opinion were it being a custom for the Legions to advance champions when they met after Dulan "I'll be my own Champion" the Lion whispered with a smile and then mocked the wolves as cowards. Goading them. If you challenge a vastly inferior foe it does not make him a coward to not accept. It makes you a coward to issue the challenge. Faffnr wasn't frothing to get at the Lion. He told Guilliman "honor demands it" and told the Lion "I crave you advance your Champion". He was prepared to meet his equal (or at least a worthy challenger). I agree that he was very lucky the Lion did not kill him on the spot. However I think the Lion is far too smart for that. Imagine the ramifications killing that Wolf would have had. All Primarchs are suspect at the moment and the Wolves are the Emperor's "thread cutters" for lack of a better term. What better proof of disloyalty than off-hand killing of one upon arrival? My mind just digs too deep at times. "Just because" or "it was his right" is never a decent answer. I am curious as to WHY didn't the Lion advance a Champion. Perhaps his best and brightest were in those pods waiting above? I would hate to see GW take the DA down a darker path than necessary just to add drama and/or plot twists to the fluff. I am already a little saddened by how close they are coming to the edge with the good/bad question really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 You could look at it in another way, partly alluded to by others here. How many times, have those of us in leadership positions been faced by two subordinates, each with a different point of view? I am, most often, happy let them argue their merits and then slowly come to a decision taking in all the information. But there are times when one is constrained by time and events..and in those cases you would simply make an executive decision and move on, no arguments. Isn't that the case here? With all that's happening on Ultramar having a wolf and and Angel duel it out could take ages.... they are generally equally matched... The Lion and the Wolf battled for what a day and a night? .... I'm very happy to see the Lion simply take it on himself, partly to send the message, that this is not the time for such matters... there are other more urgent matters at hand so he took the most pragmatic, tactically relevant course of action which prevented serious injuries to the best of their champions on both sides and allowed both groups to get on with killing traitors!! That is what the Lion does, assesses and takes the most tactically suitable option...to hell with peoples feelings and treading on toes.... which was the main cause for the problem on Dulan.... He took the Citadel and killed the traitor rather than have the political acumen or brotherly love to let Russ do it... possibly at a much higher cost in men and time... Just my two cents... SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat_Vet Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 @SG - I would agree with you 100% if it wasn't for the part about the smile. That is the part that just gets under my skin I suppose. Had he taken a firm stance to end the discussion and honor duel rapidly I would see the sense in it. As it was written I can only see a bit of a bully and it is all that one word "smile". It adds a touch of malicious intent rather than tactical acumen, does it not? Perhaps its just one of those things that as an individual I will have to live with :) I am sorry if I am hi-jacking the thread. I am not trying to violate the rules about DA/SW rivalry. I would feel the same way had any Primarch done this to any Space Marine. I just feel that they should be above such petty behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfax Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Well I think it's an interesting discussion actually, there is no clear answer so can't hurt to think about it. I personally see the smile similar to what SG and Typher said, perhaps the smile refers to the Lion's thoughts about such 'petty/minor' issues as honour disputes. Same goes for the event that even started the whole fight, where Russ wanted to lead the charge (honour and all) but the Lion decided to move first as it was the tactically better decision. So tactics/result over honour. E.g. if the wolves apparently still hold a grudge (although they call it honour) that the Lion assumed resolved, I can imagine he'd think like 'Sigh typical Space Wolves and their grudges.. well I'll give you what you ask for and be done with it' and then obviously smile as fighting the Lion is most likely not what Faffnr had in mind. I'm sure even the primarchs have some sense of humour / can see the irony of a Space Wolf effectively challenging the Lion (for a dispute between the Lion and Russ) along the lines of 'oh boy did that plan backfire'. You could call it dishonourable, but so far what has been written about the Lion supports the idea he would choose the quickest/best 'cold logic' solution as there are more pressing issues at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehoel Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I have always seen the Lion as a "lead from the front" type. I haven't read the book in discussion yet, but it sounds like there were not too many DA other than the Lion there. We know that the Lion's champion (Corswain) was on another mission (saving the Great Wolf), so was there really anyone else to "step forward"? Fastest way to get back to the important business was for the Lion to handle it himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Your house is on fire and the neighbour challenges you to a fight and presents his 8 year son as his proxy to a duel. Will you get your 8yr old son and see 30 minutes of a sad show of 8yrs fighting and lose precious minutes , or you just give a swift kick in the rear off the neighbours son, consider the duel over and go to save your house? Priorities, priorities, priorities. As for the smile it's always staisfying to kick the snot out of teh Woves, The Lion did it for teh morale of his troops and to show the Wolves who's the boss. Guilliman had too much tolerance for the wolve's antics, Jonson wnated to show that he was not to be messed with... if those wolves so much as sneezed wrong they would be disposed off... A meeting of brothers that been away for long and come the wolves with their self impostance and demand a fight. In my eyes, Jonson did the right thing, and I'm glad he enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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