What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[b1soul]

Three legions skirted the edges of  Imperial tolerance during the late GC, early HH period:

 

1. The World Eaters for their berserk, almost insane aggression

 

2. The Night Lords for their sadism and wanton cruelty 

 

3. The Thousand Sons for delving too deep into Warpcraft

 

World Eaters and Space Wolves experienced the Night of the Wolf. TSons and Space Wolves met at the Siege of Prospero...

 

How do you think the Wolves and Night Lords would've interacted if Russ had been sent to "reign in" Curze before the Heresy? 

 

What if instead of the Dark Angels, the Space Wolves had conducted the Thramas Crusade against Curze and his legion of sadistic murderers. 

[Hyaenidae]

Interesting, but I think the results would have been about the same; stalemate, and Primarch octogon fights that resulted in nothing.

 

EDIT: There would be some awesome dialogue, I'll admit. Mr. Abnett and Aaron both writing about the Thramas Crusade? Hell yes, please.

[Scribe]

Not sure. If you throw the NL into the Night of the Wolf? I dont see Sev and his merry band giving up on Curze, like the WE left Angron. I dont know that it would have escalated to that point either however as Curze actually did think he was loyal...

[Relict]

Curze would not have (initially) accepted his fate and laid his Legion open to the Wolves, like Magnus had done on Prospero. 

 

Then again, the Night of the Wolf and the Razing of Prospero are two different scenarios. In the former, Russ was not ordered to confront Angron - he did so in the hopes of making Angron see what he had done to his Legion (a lesson completely lost on Angron). In the latter, he was ordered by the Emperor (or so he believed) to sanction Magnus and his Legion. 

 

Curze and Russ would be an interesting pair to see going toe-to-toe. 

[Wade Garrett]

It depends on what you mean.

 

Are the VI being sent to sanction the VIII as they did to the Thousand Sons?

 

Or are the Night Lords supposed to delay the Wolves from reaching Terra, as they did against the I Legion at Thramas?

 

Scenario One in my opinion favors the Lords. Russ can't assault his homeworld to make Konrad stand at bay and face him like he did to Magnus...razing Nostromo will likely earn him a mocking congratulation from Night Haunter.

 

The Wolves would have to pursue the VIII from one end of the galaxy to the other, trailing them by the ravaged worlds they leave in their wake and never knowing when the traps and ambushes would come.

 

Likewise, if Curze engages the Wolf King in a more straightforward military campaign to hold him back from Terra, I give the advantage to the VI. The Night Lords are notoriously undisciplined, with many of their commanders more akin to terrorists than true generals...facing the distinctly unsqueamish Wolves of Fenris head on is rather out of their comfort zone.

[Scribe]

I think Russ would snap him like a twig. :p

[Conn Eremon]

The possible scenarios come with some interesting potential, but in each one there would always be a clear winner.

 

Us.

[Kol Saresk]

It depends on what you mean.

 

Are the VI being sent to sanction the VIII as they did to the Thousand Sons?

 

Or are the Night Lords supposed to delay the Wolves from reaching Terra, as they did against the I Legion at Thramas?

 

Scenario One in my opinion favors the Lords. Russ can't assault his homeworld to make Konrad stand at bay and face him like he did to Magnus...razing Nostromo will likely earn him a mocking congratulation from Night Haunter.

 

The Wolves would have to pursue the VIII from one end of the galaxy to the other, trailing them by the ravaged worlds they leave in their wake and never knowing when the traps and ambushes would come.

 

Likewise, if Curze engages the Wolf King in a more straightforward military campaign to hold him back from Terra, I give the advantage to the VI. The Night Lords are notoriously undisciplined, with many of their commanders more akin to terrorists than true generals...facing the distinctly unsqueamish Wolves of Fenris head on is rather out of their comfort zone.

On the other hand, the Night Lords can indirectly face the Legion head on, like a matador fighting a charging bull. Let it charge and then cut its side. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. Until the bull is finally dead, or it has managed to gore the matador.

 

We know that the Wolves can be goaded. While they are off "chasing the VIII", wouldn't exactly be too shocking if one of the Night Lords' Castigation Fleets attacked the Wolves one and only homeworld: Fenris.

[b1soul]

Not sure. If you throw the NL into the Night of the Wolf? I dont see Sev and his merry band giving up on Curze, like the WE left Angron. I dont know that it would have escalated to that point either however as Curze actually did think he was loyal...

 

Honestly, I think a Night of the Wolf scenario involving SW vs. NL would get very, very ugly

 

Uglier than SW vs. WE...

 

I think Russ and Angron are both warriors. Curze on the other hand is an "honourless" killer. He'd rather backstab than engage in face-to-face combat (though clearly he's capable of holding his own at the latter). Despite the acrimonious words between Russ and Angron, I feel (and this is just my hunch) that Russ and Angron are still capable of respecting each other as worthy foes.

 

I don't see any reason for Russ to respect Curze. If they had clashed in a scenario similar to NoW, I think true hatred between them would've resulted 

 

 

 

On the other hand, the Night Lords can indirectly face the Legion head on, like a matador fighting a charging bull. Let it charge and then cut its side. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. Until the bull is finally dead, or it has managed to gore the matador.

 

We know that the Wolves can be goaded. While they are off "chasing the VIII", wouldn't exactly be too shocking if one of the Night Lords' Castigation Fleets attacked the Wolves one and only homeworld: Fenris.

 

I'd still give the advantage to the Wolves in a direct confrontation. I think those tactics by the Night Lords would work better against Angron's hotheads. The Wolves are cunning enough not be go rushing in like maniacs 

[Kol Saresk]

They went rushing into Prospero. Like I said, they can be goaded.

 

Besides, it worked with the Dark Angels for three years until the I Legion was able to gore them at Sheol by doing what the Night Lords did: ambushing an unsuspecting enemy.

[A D-B]

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

[Kol Saresk]

So, basically the Wolves are too slow. :P

[A D-B]

So, basically the Wolves are too slow.

I don't really know how I'd ever write a scenario like the Wolves against the Nighties in 'alternate history' circumstances like this, but joking aside, I think if I showed the Night Lords losing yet another thing, I'd probably be lynched by their fans. Better for me to sit on the sidelines rather than try to work it out.

[Nakuth]

Having just last night watched a blood eagle been granted on a poor soul in an episode of Vikings, I get the distinct impression that Sevatar would do his utmost to spend the entire time laughing while being given his.

[Týr]

 

It depends on what you mean.

 

Are the VI being sent to sanction the VIII as they did to the Thousand Sons?

 

Or are the Night Lords supposed to delay the Wolves from reaching Terra, as they did against the I Legion at Thramas?

 

Scenario One in my opinion favors the Lords. Russ can't assault his homeworld to make Konrad stand at bay and face him like he did to Magnus...razing Nostromo will likely earn him a mocking congratulation from Night Haunter.

 

The Wolves would have to pursue the VIII from one end of the galaxy to the other, trailing them by the ravaged worlds they leave in their wake and never knowing when the traps and ambushes would come.

 

Likewise, if Curze engages the Wolf King in a more straightforward military campaign to hold him back from Terra, I give the advantage to the VI. The Night Lords are notoriously undisciplined, with many of their commanders more akin to terrorists than true generals...facing the distinctly unsqueamish Wolves of Fenris head on is rather out of their comfort zone.

On the other hand, the Night Lords can indirectly face the Legion head on, like a matador fighting a charging bull. Let it charge and then cut its side. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. Until the bull is finally dead, or it has managed to gore the matador.

 

We know that the Wolves can be goaded. While they are off "chasing the VIII", wouldn't exactly be too shocking if one of the Night Lords' Castigation Fleets attacked the Wolves one and only homeworld: Fenris.

 

Yes the NL can fight the VI Legion indirectly (and would likely win through this), but it would not be like a matador vs a bull. It would be more like the hunter becomes the hunted. The Wolves are not the XII Legion and wouldn't rush headlong into another Legion like that.

 

You later wrote that they rushed Prospero but I wouldn't say they did that either. Of course it depends on your definition on "rush". I see it as the Wolves using shock and awe on Prospero.

[Kol Saresk]

So, basically the Wolves are too slow.

I don't really know how I'd ever write a scenario like the Wolves against the Nighties in 'alternate history' circumstances like this, but joking aside, I think if I showed the Night Lords losing yet another thing, I'd probably be lynched by their fans. Better for me to sit on the sidelines rather than try to work it out.

Well, I wouldn't exactly support a lynching, but to be fair the Night Lords do only have a victory in Lord of the Night. Basically, its Failbaddon a la Nostramo. So, I could understand the sentiment, but I think it'd end up being for any author.

Although wait, aren't you writing Nightfall?

[b1soul]

They went rushing into Prospero. Like I said, they can be goaded.

 

Umm...not really. Magnus lowered all of Prospero's planetary defences. There was no way the Wolves would've passed up the opportunity to exploit an opening of that magnitude 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

It depends on what you mean.

 

Are the VI being sent to sanction the VIII as they did to the Thousand Sons?

 

Or are the Night Lords supposed to delay the Wolves from reaching Terra, as they did against the I Legion at Thramas?

 

Scenario One in my opinion favors the Lords. Russ can't assault his homeworld to make Konrad stand at bay and face him like he did to Magnus...razing Nostromo will likely earn him a mocking congratulation from Night Haunter.

 

The Wolves would have to pursue the VIII from one end of the galaxy to the other, trailing them by the ravaged worlds they leave in their wake and never knowing when the traps and ambushes would come.

 

Likewise, if Curze engages the Wolf King in a more straightforward military campaign to hold him back from Terra, I give the advantage to the VI. The Night Lords are notoriously undisciplined, with many of their commanders more akin to terrorists than true generals...facing the distinctly unsqueamish Wolves of Fenris head on is rather out of their comfort zone.

On the other hand, the Night Lords can indirectly face the Legion head on, like a matador fighting a charging bull. Let it charge and then cut its side. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat. Until the bull is finally dead, or it has managed to gore the matador.

 

We know that the Wolves can be goaded. While they are off "chasing the VIII", wouldn't exactly be too shocking if one of the Night Lords' Castigation Fleets attacked the Wolves one and only homeworld: Fenris.

Yes the NL can fight the VI Legion indirectly (and would likely win through this), but it would not be like a matador vs a bull. It would be more like the hunter becomes the hunted. The Wolves are not the XII Legion and wouldn't rush headlong into another Legion like that.

 

You later wrote that they rushed Prospero but I wouldn't say they did that either. Of course it depends on your definition on "rush". I see it as the Wolves using shock and awe on Prospero.

The Wolves charged and counted on the momentum of their attack to win the day. That momentum actually faltered until the Flesh Change happened. Imagine what would have happened if they had rushed into functioning surface to orbit defenses or the defense fleets.

 

That is the definition of rushing in. It doesn't have to be without thought, but it does have to be not well-thought. And Prospero was not well-thought. Bombard, land, rush towards the center and kill everything in the way. Thankfully them, the flame-spewing Titan self-destructed.

 

 

 

They went rushing into Prospero. Like I said, they can be goaded.

Umm...not really. Magnus lowered all of Prospero's planetary defences. There was no way the Wolves would've passed up the opportunity to exploit an opening of that magnitude

True or false, the Wolves attacked because a daemon tricked them into thinking the Sons' sins were worse than they were.

[b1soul]

True or false, the Wolves attacked because a daemon tricked them into thinking the Sons' sins were worse than they were.

 

That's not the same issue 

 

You could be fooled into thinking your brother and his legion are completely lost to the Warp...but you could still conduct your attack with tactical intelligence. 

 

A daemon might've tricked them into attacking, but their attach was well-orchestrated. It wasn't a berserk World Eaters-style "attack now, think later" charge 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

True or false, the Wolves attacked because a daemon tricked them into thinking the Sons' sins were worse than they were.

 

That's not the same issue 

 

You could be fooled into thinking your brother and his legion are completely lost to the Warp...but you could still conduct your attack with tactical intelligence. 

 

A daemon might've tricked them into attacking, but their attach was well-orchestrated. It wasn't a berserk World Eaters-style "attack now, think later" charge

 

 

A daemon tricked them into attacking a world that just before they had sought to parley with using a psyker they believed was connected to Magnus even though they had no empirical evidence supporting that belief and only their bias and superstitions to support that theory. They did not think. Yes, when they attacked, they attacked the way they thought was best. Without reconnaissance. Without even questioning why a Legion homeworld was left defenseless even though by their primitive way of thinking, the planet had not surrendered.

 

They were goaded into being biased against the Wolves. They were then goaded into attacking Prospero by a daemon who made them think it was Magnus' response. It is the same issue. Because it proves my point. Nobody is infallible. The Wolves when it comes down to it, can be tricked and goaded into doing what their enemy wants, provided the enemy has half a brain.

[b1soul]

 

 

True or false, the Wolves attacked because a daemon tricked them into thinking the Sons' sins were worse than they were.

 

That's not the same issue 

 

You could be fooled into thinking your brother and his legion are completely lost to the Warp...but you could still conduct your attack with tactical intelligence. 

 

A daemon might've tricked them into attacking, but their attach was well-orchestrated. It wasn't a berserk World Eaters-style "attack now, think later" charge

 

A daemon tricked them into attacking a world that just before they had sought to parley with using a psyker they believed was connected to Magnus even though they had no empirical evidence supporting that belief and only their bias and superstitions to support that theory. They did not think. Yes, when they attacked, they attacked the way they thought was best. Without reconnaissance. Without even questioning why a Legion homeworld was left defenseless even though by their primitive way of thinking, the planet had not surrendered.

 

They were goaded into being biased against the Wolves. They were then goaded into attacking Prospero by a daemon who made them think it was Magnus' response. It is the same issue. Because it proves my point. Nobody is infallible. The Wolves when it comes down to it, can be tricked and goaded into doing what their enemy wants, provided the enemy has half a brain.

 

No, it doesn't prove your point. Whether the daemon tricked them is unrelated to whether the Wolves made tactical errors in prosecuting the attack. 

 

You're conflating issues.

 

The daemon's trickery didn't cause the Wolves to commit tactical errors when attacking Prospero. The daemon incident shows that a daemon was able to trick the Wolves into making an erroneous character judgement of Magnus.

 

It doesn't show that a cunning enemy duped the Wolves into committing battlefield errors. If you want examples of this, I'm pretty sure the conflict  between the SW and the AL will provide them. 

 

I'm sure a cunning enemy could trick the Wolves into committing military errors, but the daemon incident is not a good example of that. The daemon's trickery shows that the Wolves are fallible, but it doesn't cause the Wolves to blunder on the battlefield 

[Kol Saresk]

Ah I okay, I see where we went wrong. I say "goaded into rushing into the attack on Prospero" and you heard "the Wolves were made into idiots". You heard wrong. The whole point of goading someone is to get them to do what you want by putting them into an irrational state.

 

The Wolves were goaded. They never once questioned why Prospero's defenses were down. They never once questioned why, if Prospero was refusing to surrender, it didn't bother defending itself until the end of the orbital bombardment and why the surface defenses were not prepared to repel an invasion. They did not think. They rushed into the situation. They. Were. Goaded. Do you understand what I am saying now?

 

The Night Lords don't need the Wolves "to make mistakes". They just need the Wolves to keep fighting the fights they want the Wolves to fight. Keep making them rush forward, forever chasing shadows. Meanwhile, salt the earth, destroy Loyalist supplies, poison the recruiting grounds. Bleed them long enough and the VIII will never have to have a direct battle in order to have a victory.

[Týr]

The Wolves charged and counted on the momentum of their attack to win the day. That momentum actually faltered until the Flesh Change happened. Imagine what would have happened if they had rushed into functioning surface to orbit defenses or the defense fleets.

 

That is the definition of rushing in. It doesn't have to be without thought, but it does have to be not well-thought. And Prospero was not well-thought. Bombard, land, rush towards the center and kill everything in the way. Thankfully them, the flame-spewing Titan self-destructed.

 

Most of that is speculation. We do not know how well planned the attack was. We do not have any eye witness that was in a war room when it was decided who did what. And no matter what the plan was, there is this saying that battle plans rarely survives contact with the enemy. So even though in the end it could look like a "rush", it might as well have started out as a true Operation Barbarossa. 

 

The way I think about rushing in is that without thought = not-well thought because the end result may be the same. I still hold that the Wolves did what most of the Legions do and that's shock and awe tactics. Overwhelming force in as short a time span as possible. When we talk rushing I think more something like entering a room without slicing the pie and so on.

 

The tactic of Bombard, land, and 'rush' towards the center was actually made quite popular during the Great Crusade by a guy called Horus. He called it the speartip ;)

 

In the end I find it very hard to believe that a Primarch in charge of a full Legion is not capable of creating a sound plan before attacking another legion. That they would blindly commit to a battle they knew they might loose without a plan dosen't sound very 'lots of self-control and lots of wet leopard-growl-ish'.

[Kol Saresk]

*snip

 

I have to admit, I don't get the "walking into a room without slicing the pie". Might be because I don't eat pie.

 

But for the most part, refer to my response to b1soul. I'm not saying the Wolves were idiots when they attacked Prospero. I'm sure they executed the bombard, land and attack to the best of their abilities. But they did not think about the situation. The "plan" on how to arrest Magnus was not being well thought out.

 

Prospero should have had defenses. It didn't. Russ should have trie something more conventional than communicating through a man who had no connection to Magnus. He didn't. Russ should have also been smart enough not to believe a daemon. He chose not to be. There was no thought, only action.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Can't comment about Tharamas (haven't read it).

 

But as far as a Pre Heresy 'sanctioning' ala Magnus. Why assume it would end up as a shooting war between the Wolves and Lords? Given the circumstances of Curze's death, and the distaste he apparently had for his sons, I can see it boiling down to essentially what happened post heresy, but with Russ hearing his last words instead of M'Shen, and maybe the Wolves replacing the Utlramarines, or the VIII merely fragmenting under its various warlords without the help of getting shattered by another Legion.