What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[Týr]

 

*snip

I have to admit, I don't get the "walking into a room without slicing the pie". Might be because I don't eat pie.

 

But for the most part, refer to my response to b1soul. I'm not saying the Wolves were idiots when they attacked Prospero. I'm sure they executed the bombard, land and attack to the best of their abilities. But they did not think about the situation. The "plan" on how to arrest Magnus was not being well thought out.

 

Prospero should have had defenses. It didn't. Russ should have trie something more conventional than communicating through a man who had no connection to Magnus. He didn't. Russ should have also been smart enough not to believe a daemon. He chose not to be. There was no thought, only action.

 

You are an intelligent person and I do not for a second think you say the Wolves are idiots. Your reply clarifies some things up ver nicely.

I think what I jumped up at was the use of the word rush that I found imprecise. But in the end if comes down to 'rushing in' is not well defined, so it is wide open to interpretation.

 

I can follow you when you say the did not think the situation through, and heeded the warning signals. Perhaps it is a lack of forethought, but perhaps it could also be that Russ trusted his brother and warmaster Horus and his orders a bit too much.

[b1soul]

Prospero should have had defenses. It didn't. Russ should have trie something more conventional than communicating through a man who had no connection to Magnus. He didn't. Russ should have also been smart enough not to believe a daemon. He chose not to be. There was no thought, only action.

 

I think we can all agree that the Wolves are fallible on the battlefield. They're not super-Astartes-werewolf-exectutioners who just crap all over the other legions. 

 

That said...being tricked by a daemon off the battlefield isn't exactly a great example of battlefield fallibility potentially exploitable by the Night Lords. 

 

More relevant examples would be...

- The TSons trick/outmaneuvre/outwit the Wolves on Prospero (not sure if this actually happens) 

- The Alpha Legion runs circles around the Wolves (this might happen)

 

Unless the Night Lords have daemon tricksters among then, I don't think the daemon's trickery is that relevant.

 

To make for a more interesting discussion, you might want to get into more detail about how Curze would go about outwitting Russ. I can see Curze employing effective hit and run/refuse to engage tactics...but your claim was that Curze would be able to implement something similar in a direct battlefield confrontation (a pitched battle)

 

Pitched battles really aren't the Night Lords' strong suite   

[Kol Saresk]

You did read A D-B's blurb right, about how the Wolves chased shadow after shadow only to find the Night Lords gone?

 

There is a canonical example of this. Its called the Thramas Crusade. Where the Night Lords would attack and retreat across the entire subsector, forcing the Dark Angels to attempt to defend and attack on mutliple fronts. Sometimes they would catch the raiding fleets. Sometimes they were ambushed. More often than not, they would arrive too late, the damage done and the Night Lords moved on. I believe Corswain even mentions that a shipyard was destroyed in Savage Weapons. And this happened for three years. And it only stopped because the Lion took control of a sentient warp engine capable of tracking the Night Lords and allowing for the simultaneous translocation of an entire fleet in order to ambush the VIII.

 

That's how. Keep the Wolves chasing shadows. Except since this would be an attempt at sanction and not an attempt at stalling, the logical attempt would be to draw the Wolves away and away and away beyond Imperial aid. Wouldn't be too hard since the VIII ha been living beyond the Imperium's borders since Prospero. And while that's going on, send a secondary fleet to say hi to Fenris. The attempt alone would harm the Wolves. It would also make them angry, which leads to irrationality. And when someone gets irrational, they start to make mistakes.

 

Wade compared the Night Lords to terrorists. An he's right. But the thing to remember about terrorists is that they are survivors. Look at the Taliban. We've been directly hunting them for what, almost thirteen years now I think. And those are just "peasants with guns". Now imagine the Taliban as an army of genetically engineered super soldiers with technology at hand that has been in the making for ten thousand years. Even when the full might of the Progenitors fell on them, it did nothing more than scatter the roaches.

[Greyall]

Dorn went to talk to Curze. That went well...

 

Honestly, I don't think anyone would've been prepared for the depths of depravity the Night Lords had fallen into. At Thramas they had a mission (so they had to stick around) and the Lion had unforeseen aid. With the Wolves set on them, the Night Lords would wander around, ambushing the Wolves, killing entire worlds and impaling corpses across whole continents. The only chance I can see for the Wolves (bar combat superiority, but the Night Lords account for that) is if they could attract Curze into a trap. He was pretty bloodthirsty in Unremembered Empire, to the point that he got himself in a room with both The Lion and Guilliman. Could've been his end...

 

other than that, I see ADB's first guess being the one happening. Also, though I don't think the Wolves rush headlong out of barbarity, they tend to be pretty straightforward due to Russ' rigidity. So there's a pretty nice chance this would be Russ' final hunt...

[A D-B]

You did read A D-B's blurb right, about how the Wolves chased shadow after shadow only to find the Night Lords gone?

 

In fairness, there was more than one possibility, there. The first half was one thing, but there was an "and/or" right after it. The or is an important part of that, in all this wild conjecture.

 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just curious, any idea of the numbers of the Night Lords? Certainly large enough to keep the Lion occupied, and the last firm number I heard about the Dark Angels was in Unremembered Empire, where he supposedly had 20,000 marines in drop pods ready to drop on Guilliman if his suspicions about Guiliman being a traitor rang true.

 

Anyway, as in everything else about Russ, it's not so simple. The wolves are not above underhanded tactics themselves, they certainly know the value of scouting, espionage, sabotage and normal total war tactics. They just happen to prefer open combat. It's not fair to say that the Wolves would be completely outmaneuvered by the shadow tactics of the Night Lords and Alpha Legion. I believe that the wolves are perfectly capable of improvising to any situation when needed.

 

That being said, my opinion is that a war between Russ and Cruze would most likely end in a stalemate, just like the Lion was stalled until one of them does something unexpected to the other, again which the Lion did by utilizing unique technology and the Night Lords own ambush tactics against them. Of course I would root for Russ, but I'm no fool in thinking Curze is a walkover, even if he is mostly portrayed as a oversized ghoul with the speed of a vampire. In terms of weapon skill, I would not dare to give Russ the advantage, given that in the duel between Lion and Curze, it was mostly equal apart from Lion's preemptive strike. Russ also fights with a sword if I'm not mistaken, and a sword is suppose to have better reach than claws.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

You did read A D-B's blurb right, about how the Wolves chased shadow after shadow only to find the Night Lords gone?

In fairness, there was more than one possibility, there. The first half was one thing, but there was an "and/or" right after it. The or is an important part of that, in all this wild conjecture.

Oh I fully understand that. But this is supposed to be a discussion about possibilities. And the Night Lords leading the Wolves on a wild goose chase is a possibility, especially since they've done before. Albeit to a different Legion.

[Greyall]

Still, I do see the Wolves taking a loooooong time to become demoralized with the wild goose chase. Some of them might even make a sport out of finding them Batmarines. So the Night Lords' fear/demoralizing tactics would be inneffective or at least take longer to work.

[Spaz431]

If we look at a rules wise, yes wolves rules have not been published yet, but NL have been. NL are going to attack under cover of darkness. They are going to attack in large enough groups to show wolves that killers born and breed are more dangerous. The wolves will show the NL a ferocity they have yet to experience. None of the 30k armies to date have fearless or ATSKNF, yes primarchs are different. I see the moment where Curze and Russ striding toward each other similar to the moment in the movie "Willow" where Mad Martigan and Cale move toward each other, slaughtering each other's men. Part of the confrontation between the primarchs comes down to initiative step. If Curze rushes, he has the benefit. If Russ charges, it will be more balanced. If we use current codex for SW, Russ will likely have counter attack, which will most likely go off, so the only bonus that Curze will have is +1 attack due to dual claws as compared to two, if Curze assaults. If Russ' sword is two handed, he will DEFINATELY have Curze on Str, but with curze's claws have shred giving reroll to wound at ap 3, so unless Russ has 2+ armor several attacks will go through first. Curze will likely forced to save against ap2 so likelyhood for damage is high also. Overall, stalemate, leaning in Russ' favor, but I will still root for my primarch.

[Wade Garrett]

As to whether or not Curze can goad Russ, we should not forget that when the Wolf King stood before the Lord of the Red Sands, Leman was the first to lose his temper and draw a blade against a brother Primarch.

 

On the flip side, describing the VIII against the VI as a matador against a bull, the thing to remember is that a matador has to get everything perfectly right every single exchange to prevail.

 

The bull only has to get it right once.

[Kais Klip]

Keep in mind the VIII approach against enemies resistant to fear (and despite my spite for knights, we’re not suggesting the first legion has less balls than the space pups, right?), an approach they seem to have used against the Angels instead of their more fear-reliant tactics they would employ against xeno or human forces.

 

For those suggesting a Wolf “success”, whatever that parameter might be, what advantage do you think the wolves possess that would make them more successful at hunting the Night Lords than the Angels? The Lion has heretech and superior mental acumen on his side, while the wolves do not seem like they would as willing to throw away their honour as Guilliman threw away his doctrines at Eskrador, a debilitating factor to my mind. Furthermore, while it is not conveyed, the 1st legion is used to employing all kinds of military roles as the foremost legion, and so should be more adept at hunting down raider tactics than the Wolves, who have no skillset in that area beyond that which is expected of any legion.

 

- someone that has more bias against the Angels than the Wolves.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Why do you think the Wolves wouldn't use the technology they had? Again I haven't read about the DA vs NL hunt, but if anything I'd say the DAs would be less willing to use fancy tech, given the Wolves' thing in 30k is that they do whatever it takes; "We are capable of anything, that is the point of us".

[Greyall]

The Wolves' honour is a wall full of enemy skulls. They levelled Prospero, and bombarded a city full of innocents, so the concept of 'honour' is somewhat different in 30K. Also, human life.The Vilka Fenrika is based on accomplishing their mission, not just the feats each brother performs (let's just forget that talk about no Astartes matching a Wolf 1-on-1...).

 

I can see Russ sending squads to a hundred different planets around, each with a Signum the size of a Rhino, to wait for the Night Lords to start doing their thing and light the greatest fire the Galaxy has ever seen in order for his father to come. Of course, this would only work once or twice.

 

Edit: Rereading the first post, I think we've forgotten the other scenario, that instead of a full-on attack like the Thousand Sons got, Russ had gone to talk Curze into behaving like he did with Angron, and like Dorn did.

 

In this case, my only doubt is if Russ would've been expecting an attack, unlike Dorn. If he did, one of the Primarchs would probably die. If he didn't, that dead Primarch would be Russ.

[SFH]

Having just last night watched a blood eagle been granted on a poor soul in an episode of Vikings, I get the distinct impression that Sevatar would do his utmost to spend the entire time laughing while being given his.

"You call this excrutiation? I've had worse from servitors repairing my armour!"

[DuskRaider]

In a "Night of the Wolf" situation, I honestly don't see Curze willingly participating in a battle against another Legion. He'd probably balk at the Wolf's criticism... then again, he may actually debate the necessity of his Legion's tactics in the Emperor's grand plan. The difference is Angron goaded Russ into a battle, because quite honestly Angron didn't care one way or another. Actually, I'll up the ante. Angron wanted to fight Russ. I could see the Red Angel viewing Russ as a desired match, just to see how he would fair. Curze, however, has nothing to prove to himself or Russ. He knows his lot in the Imperium, and he knows his ultimate fate. 

 

Now, if the two Legions came into combat... there's honestly way too many factors to determine who would come out the victor. Let's face it, even with Prospero the VIth Legion's victory was null, considering the losses they accumulated. Yes, they technically succeeded in razing Prospero, but the price they paid was high. We know that if the Space Wolves are to prosecute another Legion, they'll do so with the assistance of the Custodes and perhaps Sisters of Silence (although I think they were there more for their psychic nullification). What good would Custodes be in a guerilla warfare campaign? They wouldn't be. I don't even think the Emperor would send the Wolves against the VIIIth... that would be a campaign more fit for Raven Guard or most likely Alpha Legion (as they were also supposedly a specialist Legion akin to Space Wolves).

[Greyall]

The Ravens might be able to set and predict an ambush, but the Night Lords also specialize in demoralizing and, in that sense, the Wolves might prove more useful, they seem sturdier.

 

Not sure Custodes are bad in case of an ambush. If you're going to fall into one (and you will, against the Night Lords), might as well counter it with better individual troops that can turn the tide of a battle.

 

Also, about Curze's will to fight...he went straight for Dorn's throat when faced with accusations. And he was a murderous devil in Unremembered...don't downplay his killy side, it's probably his largest.

[Aegnor]

I don't agree that Curze wouldn't get angry enough to attack Russ if Russ was sent to rebuke him. He got angry enough to attack Dorn.

 

Russ equally would likely be able to be provoked by Curze. One Curze started talking about how the Emperor was a traitorous hypocrite, I could see Leman losing his cool pretty quick.

[Wade Garrett]

I wouldn't discount the Custodes in a war of shadows.

 

All that time they spend tip toeing around Terra trying to find holes in the Emperor's security has to count for something, no?

[DuskRaider]

At the time Curze attacked Dorn, he had already punched his one way ticket to Looneyville and was much more unstable than he had ever been. So honestly, it depends at which point in time you're having this supposed meeting take place. 

 

Edit: Also, one must remember up until the very end, Curze was extremely devoted to the Emperor. He would not refer to his father as a hypocrite etc. until well into the Heresy. So... if a "Night of the Wolf" scenario was to play out at roughly the same time, there wouldn't be much trash talking of the Emperor by Nighthaunter.

 

Edit #2: I don't think Custodes, in their limited numbers, would be able to keep up with VIIIth hit and run guerilla warfare was my point. They're too conventional and you need someone very unconventional to defeat the Lords of the Night.

[Conn Eremon]

One thing also to consider is that when the Wolves were tasked with bringing in the Thousand Sons, they were given a force to augment their own that was specifically equipped to deal with the Thousand Sons' expertise.

 

So if the Wolves were ordered to sanction the Night Lords, who would be fighting alongside them, deliberately chosen to counter the Night Lords' expertise?

 

Now, if this is the Night of the Night, they would be alone.

 

Edit: Curze never deliberately struck Dorn. Dorn confronted him, Curze went into a vision trance and then came to with Dorn bloodied beneath him. Curze didn't technically attack Dorn. He went into feral spaz mode as his body reacted to what his mind was showing him, and Dorn was simply there.

[Karthak]

Edit #2: I don't think Custodes, in their limited numbers, would be able to keep up with VIIIth hit and run guerilla warfare was my point. They're too conventional and you need someone very unconventional to defeat the Lords of the Night.

Speaking of which, how many Custodes are there? Have any of the Horus Heresy books (Forgeworld or Black Library) laid down a number?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

So if the Wolves were ordered to sanction the Night Lords, who would be fighting alongside them, deliberately chosen to counter the Night Lords' expertise?

 

 

Was that the norm though, or just a quirk of Prospero because the Sisters were needed to neutralise the unique advantage of the Son's magic?

 

But top answer the question:

 

The Thousand Sons? Bring along the Corvidae and NL ambushes become 'hey guys they're over there, make them dead'.

 

Or the Alphas? Half of the Altramentar are actually Alpharuis.

 

Or the Salamanders. Their 'thing' was asymmetric warfare where they were at a disadvantage. They could be used to trigger the Night Lord's trap, aren't wiped out quickly because they're the Salamaders and they knew a trap was coming, then the Wolves hit the Night Lords once they're pinned in place.

[Conn Eremon]

The fact that Angron remarked on the fact that he was alone, making him assume it was not an official sanction but Russ acting on his own, implies that no, it was not something unique to the censureship of the Thousand Sons.

[DarKnight]

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

Einherjar = Dreadnoughts?

[b1soul]

let's just forget that talk about no Astartes matching a Wolf 1-on-1...).

 

No let's...

 

"There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can out-match a warrior of the Rout"

 

1. It's a claim by the Wolves' skald

2. It doesn't mean "the Wolves are better than everyone else". It's closer to "no one is superior to the Wolves" or "the Wolves are inferior to no one"