What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[Marshal Rohr]

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

 

 

So the Space Wolves follow the traditional Norse naming conventions for commanders and elite units? I'll admit, I prefer Einherjar, Thegn, and Jarl to Wolf Guard, Wolf Guard Leader, and Wolf Lord. 

[Kais Klip]

You have no idea how much mental fortitude I displayed in not making a would you like some wolf with that wolfity wolf wolf remark.

…

Oh for sake.

[DuskRaider]

 

let's just forget that talk about no Astartes matching a Wolf 1-on-1...).

 

No let's...

 

"There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can out-match a warrior of the Rout"

 

1. It's a claim by the Wolves' skald

2. It doesn't mean "the Wolves are better than everyone else". It's closer to "no one is superior to the Wolves" or "the Wolves are inferior to no one"

Yeah, I'm pretty sure more than enough Wolves would dispute that during Night of the Wolf or Prospero. VIth Astartes are just Astartes, we've covered this a gazillion times and I'd rather not see this thread devolve into that, considering this topic is actually pretty neat.

[A D-B]

 

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

 

 

So the Space Wolves follow the traditional Norse naming conventions for commanders and elite units? I'll admit, I prefer Einherjar, Thegn, and Jarl to Wolf Guard, Wolf Guard Leader, and Wolf Lord. 

 

They have a lot of Norse and Norse-ish names for stuff, yeah, but not always with direct correlations. Their organisation is fairly impenetrable to outside eyes. I recently wrote a story where a Terran agent is trying to catalogue a squad for his archive, and they basically invent "standard" ranks and apply them to themselves because their actual ranks, names, and titles have no context to the scribe, and they don't think he deserves to know their real names, anyway.

 

So they don't say "We are Howl of the Hearthworld, of the Cry of the Grieving Dragon warband". They say "We are Squad Nineteen, Second Chapter, Twelfth Company."

 

And they give the names they had as children, before they earned their deed names.

 

As for the Einherjar, that's one of the names the Legion uses for itself.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

 

 

So the Space Wolves follow the traditional Norse naming conventions for commanders and elite units? I'll admit, I prefer Einherjar, Thegn, and Jarl to Wolf Guard, Wolf Guard Leader, and Wolf Lord.

They have a lot of Norse and Norse-ish names for stuff, yeah, but not always with direct correlations. Their organisation is fairly impenetrable to outside eyes. I recently wrote a story where a Terran agent is trying to catalogue a squad for his archive, and they basically invent "standard" ranks and apply them to themselves because their actual ranks, names, and titles have no context to the scribe, and they don't think he deserves to know their real names, anyway.

 

So they don't say "We are Howl of the Hearthworld, of the Cry of the Grieving Dragon warband". They say "We are Squad Nineteen, Second Chapter, Twelfth Company."

 

And they give the names they had as children, before they earned their deed names.

 

As for the Einherjar, that's one of the names the Legion uses for itself.

Gotcha. So would you mind giving a little more context? Would a Jarl's personal guard have a separate name from the rest of the veterans, for example? If I understand correctly, squad types wouldn't have a name based on their load out (like Breachers, Support, etc) when referring to themselves to other Space Wolves, they would have a title the other Space Wolf would recognize?

 

Edit: And is it safe to assume that say, what I would understand as a Platoon would be more like an autonomous warband of various squads within the larger organization of a great company?

[Greyall]

Curze attacked Dorn, that he did it in 'Bats**t mode' only makes it worse and more guaranteed that he'd do it to Russ as well, I think. Russ and Dorn share that irritating air of righteousness (born from their sense of duty), so they tend to spark rage-trips.

 

Still, let's not downgrade the merits of more conventional military tactics against the VIIIth. The Ultramarines and their successors managed to attack and absolutely demolish the Night Lords' main base. That was during the Scouring, I think, but still, I believe it says something about the NL's structure - it's not very cohesive, and they seem far better at acting on a smaller level (and at their best when they're surviving) than at functioning as a whole on a larger scale.

 

So my most likely scenario: Russ confronts Curze, fight ensues (and let's assume there's a draw so no VS thread-monsters are sprung), the Wolves manage to fracture the VIIIth in the opening, more straightforward battles. After that, the Night Lords do what they do best and end up forming warbands, with Russ unable to find Curze and the Wolves spending some good years taking serious casualties from ambushes and having a couple of serious victories where they manage to track larger Night Lords forces.

[Marshal Rohr]

Curze attacked Dorn, that he did it in 'Bats**t mode' only makes it worse and more guaranteed that he'd do it to Russ as well, I think. Russ and Dorn share that irritating air of righteousness (born from their sense of duty), so they tend to spark rage-trips.

 

Still, let's not downgrade the merits of more conventional military tactics against the VIIIth. The Ultramarines and their successors managed to attack and absolutely demolish the Night Lords' main base. That was during the Scouring, I think, but still, I believe it says something about the NL's structure - it's not very cohesive, and they seem far better at acting on a smaller level (and at their best when they're surviving) than at functioning as a whole on a larger scale.

 

So my most likely scenario: Russ confronts Curze, fight ensues (and let's assume there's a draw so no VS thread-monsters are sprung), the Wolves manage to fracture the VIIIth in the opening, more straightforward battles. After that, the Night Lords do what they do best and end up forming warbands, with Russ unable to find Curze and the Wolves spending some good years taking serious casualties from ambushes and having a couple of serious victories where they manage to track larger Night Lords forces.

 

To be fair, the only reason the Ultramarines successors managed to beat up the Night Lords was so there would be an instance for the Codex to be shown as effective, so people couldn't say Legions are better than Chapters. In reality, 23,000 successors in little tiny strike groups against the remaining might of the Night Lords wouldn't have a chance. Those dinky little 3-4 km Battle barges against a 17 km Gloriana? Not a chance in hell. 

[A D-B]

 

Curze attacked Dorn, that he did it in 'Bats**t mode' only makes it worse and more guaranteed that he'd do it to Russ as well, I think. Russ and Dorn share that irritating air of righteousness (born from their sense of duty), so they tend to spark rage-trips.

 

Still, let's not downgrade the merits of more conventional military tactics against the VIIIth. The Ultramarines and their successors managed to attack and absolutely demolish the Night Lords' main base. That was during the Scouring, I think, but still, I believe it says something about the NL's structure - it's not very cohesive, and they seem far better at acting on a smaller level (and at their best when they're surviving) than at functioning as a whole on a larger scale.

 

So my most likely scenario: Russ confronts Curze, fight ensues (and let's assume there's a draw so no VS thread-monsters are sprung), the Wolves manage to fracture the VIIIth in the opening, more straightforward battles. After that, the Night Lords do what they do best and end up forming warbands, with Russ unable to find Curze and the Wolves spending some good years taking serious casualties from ambushes and having a couple of serious victories where they manage to track larger Night Lords forces.

 

To be fair, the only reason the Ultramarines successors managed to beat up the Night Lords was so there would be an instance for the Codex to be shown as effective, so people couldn't say Legions are better than Chapters. In reality, 23,000 successors in little tiny strike groups against the remaining might of the Night Lords wouldn't have a chance. Those dinky little 3-4 km Battle barges against a 17 km Gloriana? Not a chance in hell. 

 

Those are the Successors listed in the Apocrypha of Skaros, as I recall. The ones people know about, rather than all of them.

 

And they didn't just win because of that, dude. It was a nice side-benefit to show that the Codex Astartes is, y'know, useful and complicated to fight against. It wasn't the only reason they won. Credit me with some integrity. Who'd ever work like that? 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Curze attacked Dorn, that he did it in 'Bats**t mode' only makes it worse and more guaranteed that he'd do it to Russ as well, I think. Russ and Dorn share that irritating air of righteousness (born from their sense of duty), so they tend to spark rage-trips.

 

Still, let's not downgrade the merits of more conventional military tactics against the VIIIth. The Ultramarines and their successors managed to attack and absolutely demolish the Night Lords' main base. That was during the Scouring, I think, but still, I believe it says something about the NL's structure - it's not very cohesive, and they seem far better at acting on a smaller level (and at their best when they're surviving) than at functioning as a whole on a larger scale.

 

So my most likely scenario: Russ confronts Curze, fight ensues (and let's assume there's a draw so no VS thread-monsters are sprung), the Wolves manage to fracture the VIIIth in the opening, more straightforward battles. After that, the Night Lords do what they do best and end up forming warbands, with Russ unable to find Curze and the Wolves spending some good years taking serious casualties from ambushes and having a couple of serious victories where they manage to track larger Night Lords forces.

 

To be fair, the only reason the Ultramarines successors managed to beat up the Night Lords was so there would be an instance for the Codex to be shown as effective, so people couldn't say Legions are better than Chapters. In reality, 23,000 successors in little tiny strike groups against the remaining might of the Night Lords wouldn't have a chance. Those dinky little 3-4 km Battle barges against a 17 km Gloriana? Not a chance in hell. 

 

Those are the Successors listed in the Apocrypha of Skaros, as I recall. The ones people know about, rather than all of them.

 

And they didn't just win because of that, dude. It was a nice side-benefit to show that the Codex Astartes is, y'know, useful and complicated to fight against. It wasn't the only reason they won. Credit me with some integrity. Who'd ever work like that? 

 

Well, it kind of changes the scenario if there are more than 23,000 :P . My Night Lords books are not with me to reread the passage, so I humbly apologize. 

[marshal seanisi]

Curze attacked Dorn, that he did it in 'Bats**t mode' only makes it worse and more guaranteed that he'd do it to Russ as well, I think. Russ and Dorn share that irritating air of righteousness (born from their sense of duty), so they tend to spark rage-trips.

 

Still, let's not downgrade the merits of more conventional military tactics against the VIIIth. The Ultramarines and their successors managed to attack and absolutely demolish the Night Lords' main base. That was during the Scouring, I think, but still, I believe it says something about the NL's structure - it's not very cohesive, and they seem far better at acting on a smaller level (and at their best when they're surviving) than at functioning as a whole on a larger scale.

 

So my most likely scenario: Russ confronts Curze, fight ensues (and let's assume there's a draw so no VS thread-monsters are sprung), the Wolves manage to fracture the VIIIth in the opening, more straightforward battles. After that, the Night Lords do what they do best and end up forming warbands, with Russ unable to find Curze and the Wolves spending some good years taking serious casualties from ambushes and having a couple of serious victories where they manage to track larger Night Lords forces.

Well Curze attacked Dorn.  Let's remember this point! Dorn wasn't expecting it.  Russ however would approach Curze looking for a fight.  This is a key point to consider when deciding how things would play out.

 

Being prepared for a fight lends itself to a very different fight.  That being said, when it comes to Dorn and Curze the outcome would more than likely be the same, Russ and Curze however would be quite different.

[Marshal Rohr]

Also, Curze is an insanely good fighter. Dorn... not so much. To paraphrase Tyrion Lannister, he's a commander so he should command. Fighting isn't really the appeal of his character. 

[Greyall]

A well-organized force acting according to a proven strategic tome and prepared for what they'd find managed to win against the remnants of a Legion composed of a lot of unbalanced minds, more killer than soldiers, and whose MO relied heavily on surprise and unbalancing enemies.

 

Does go under 'plot armour' in my book.

 

Edit: Don't outright assume Russ would go in, guns blazing. He was prepared to fight against Angron and Magnus, not willing to.

[Marshal Rohr]

A well-organized force acting according to a proven strategic tome and prepared for what they'd find managed to win against the remnants of a Legion composed of a lot of unbalanced minds, more killer than soldiers, and whose MO relied heavily on surprise and unbalancing enemies.

 

Does go under 'plot armour' in my book.

 

Edit: Don't outright assume Russ would go in, guns blazing. He was prepared to fight against Angron and Magnus, not willing to.

 

It was new at that point, and this book had the power to almost cause another Civil War within years of the last one. Night Lords are one of the more capable legions shown at this point, considering they gave the Dark Angel's a hell of a time for 2 years. I'll never be convinced that this grand tome comprising thousands of years of martial theory came to the conclusion a thousand dudes in weak ships with no air support is the optimal fighting force. 

 

Edit: I say this not to be combative, I promise. I have more faith in Guilliman. However, I do not have faith in an idea put forward over 20 years ago that requires so much hand waving for it to work. 

[Wade Garrett]

"This is why the Imperials always win...they don't get in each others way. Discipline may be boring, but it has undeniable military benefits."

~paraphrasing Jago Sevatarion, First Captain of the Night Lords

 

Not to mention that in Void Stalker Talos specifically mentions the Imperial Navy came to the party with plenty of big ships of their own, when Ruven starts his whole "Pffft! Those loser Ultramarines in their dinky little Battle Barges" spiel.

[Greyall]

Apologies if I sounded combative myself, Marshal.

 

Why would their ships be weak, they're just weaker, and chances are the combined fleet was enough to cripple the Night Lord's.

 

My memory's not too fresh on Betrayer, but isn't the Ultramarines fleet that attacks above Angron's homeworld a tad smaller than the traitor fleet? And still they manage to punch through, cause havoc on the ground and leave having done much damage.

 

I assume the same thing is true in this instance, but really, while the Night Lords are incredible survivalists and effective when on the offensive, they're a tad squishy when on the receiving side. And they seem to generally lack strategy and tactical leadership.

 

Edit: About the Codex, my assumption is that it's very, very useful and correct, even if the paths it lays to victory aren't always clear. Where the plot seems to matter is that 40K stories with Ultramarines have the usual heroes improvise in lieu of following the Codex blindly. In 30K, the Codex still has to prove itself, and it's actually the 'Good Book' that seems unconventional.

 

Still, whenever it's right, it prepares a Marine for what it will find. And really, that's almost invaluable, as far from an auto-win button as it is.

[Marshal Rohr]

Granted, I'm being vitriolic because I'm thinking of the older material about the codex Astartes. IIRC, battle barges were retrofitted to be weak against other ships as a safety precaution, unlike the smaller vessels of the Horus Heresy that had the ability to fight void wars and planetary assault. When the BL team finally gets to the Scouring and Codex conflict, I imagine the less thought out material from ages past will be altered to make more sense.

 

 

Ultimately this comes down to my personal dislike of the idea of chapters. It is by no means 'The Truth', and I'm certainly not qualified to say what goes on in the planning sessions.

[Greyall]

I can see a little paranoia taking care of the Imperium, regarding Space Marines and the power of their toys. And I can see that paranoia coming from the Astartes themselves.

 

Back to the main plot: give credit to the Wolves, they pack one hell of a momentum when striking, so a mailed fist-strike on a conventional battle against the Night Lords, if opportunity arose, would likely shatter the boys in blue.

[DuskRaider]

 

 

Curze attacked Dorn, that he did it in 'Bats**t mode' only makes it worse and more guaranteed that he'd do it to Russ as well, I think. Russ and Dorn share that irritating air of righteousness (born from their sense of duty), so they tend to spark rage-trips.

 

Still, let's not downgrade the merits of more conventional military tactics against the VIIIth. The Ultramarines and their successors managed to attack and absolutely demolish the Night Lords' main base. That was during the Scouring, I think, but still, I believe it says something about the NL's structure - it's not very cohesive, and they seem far better at acting on a smaller level (and at their best when they're surviving) than at functioning as a whole on a larger scale.

 

So my most likely scenario: Russ confronts Curze, fight ensues (and let's assume there's a draw so no VS thread-monsters are sprung), the Wolves manage to fracture the VIIIth in the opening, more straightforward battles. After that, the Night Lords do what they do best and end up forming warbands, with Russ unable to find Curze and the Wolves spending some good years taking serious casualties from ambushes and having a couple of serious victories where they manage to track larger Night Lords forces.

 

To be fair, the only reason the Ultramarines successors managed to beat up the Night Lords was so there would be an instance for the Codex to be shown as effective, so people couldn't say Legions are better than Chapters. In reality, 23,000 successors in little tiny strike groups against the remaining might of the Night Lords wouldn't have a chance. Those dinky little 3-4 km Battle barges against a 17 km Gloriana? Not a chance in hell. 

 

Those are the Successors listed in the Apocrypha of Skaros, as I recall. The ones people know about, rather than all of them.

 

And they didn't just win because of that, dude. It was a nice side-benefit to show that the Codex Astartes is, y'know, useful and complicated to fight against. It wasn't the only reason they won. Credit me with some integrity. Who'd ever work like that? 

Would it have anything to do with the fact that the Ultramarines & Friends were better equipped and had at least three times the number of the VIIIth?

[Leif Bearclaw]

Granted, I'm being vitriolic because I'm thinking of the older material about the codex Astartes. IIRC, battle barges were retrofitted to be weak against other ships as a safety precaution, unlike the smaller vessels of the Horus Heresy that had the ability to fight void wars and planetary assault. When the BL team finally gets to the Scouring and Codex conflict, I imagine the less thought out material from ages past will be altered to make more sense.

 

 

Ultimately this comes down to my personal dislike of the idea of chapters. It is by no means 'The Truth', and I'm certainly not qualified to say what goes on in the planning sessions.

While I agree that Chapters is really silly (only 1000 guys for fighting in multiple interstellar theatres? Gimmie a break.). I don't remember anything about Legion ships being retrofitted, only that new, post Heresy ships were based around planetary assault. Given how multiple chapters have crusade era vessels in service even in m41, I find it likely that the Lions share of the fleet that routed the Night Lords was whatever was left of the XIII Legion's fleet, most of it with a new coat of paint.

[Marshal Rohr]

IIRC its in the old BFG source books that Nova Cannons or whatever the really good ship-to-ship weapon was were all removed from space marine vessels. 

[DarKnight]

Unless the Wolves were striking at a Night Lord homeworld why would they be any more inclined to look for the NLs at legion strength, as opposed to breaking into packs and harry the foe that way. Maybe we're getting a little too in depth or specific but I'd imagine the Wolves are just as experienced as breaking into packs and slowly goading an enemy into a throat tearing critical strike, just like how real wolves hunt. Not saying it means they would win, just saying there might be more to it than just "chasing shadows". Leave that to the more "knight" oriented legions. I think the Scars and Wolves as well as the Ravens would do a great job hunting them.

[Reinholt]

So, basically the Wolves are too slow.

I don't really know how I'd ever write a scenario like the Wolves against the Nighties in 'alternate history' circumstances like this, but joking aside, I think if I showed the Night Lords losing yet another thing, I'd probably be lynched by their fans. Better for me to sit on the sidelines rather than try to work it out.

I think this is something that, by my reading, people are far too uncharitable about. If you have studied the history of terror tactics in a military context, you come up with the following:

1 - The dominant side usually doesn't resort to them in any underhanded manner. They prefer more straightforward intimidation (Romans crucifying at the roadside, anyone?), or don't bother. While they are still capable of atrocities, they usually aren't sneaky atrocities. Power generates its own fear, there is no need to generate more.

2 - The best predictors of military success are, in some order: communication and trust, a genuine sense of shared purpose and morale, logistical superiority. The Night Lords, realistically, have none of those things. In that sense, they are one of the least combat-capable legions in a military context.

3 - In some sense, these change places with regard to asymmetric warfare and terror tactics. In that case, large communication webs expose you, a strong sense of individual purpose (or that of limited groups) is necessary to sustain in isolation, and logistical superiority gives way to improvisation and small-scale scavenging/hiding/evading.

So to that end, my view on the Night Lords suffering significant defeats in one way or another when they come to grips with other foes is "well, duh". That's precisely what they shouldn't be doing. They should be fighting from the shadows, never truly engaging, and wearing the other side down. In that sense, they are not warriors. They are just criminals.

As a result, they are worse at war, but better at crime. I think that the written results are actually at least semi-accurate with regard to how such tactics would play out in the HH or 40k context. Every faction has their strengths and weaknesses; wanting to be the best at everything is unrealistic, and the flaws are as interesting as the strengths.

To that end, on the topic of the thread, the whole SW vs. NL thing comes down to this: do the NL make the fatal mistake of engaging? If so, they lose. If not, they can either win, or at least draw out a long campaign of attrition and frustration.

Likewise, the worst enemies of the NL will be people who are equipped for counter-insurgency, either through raw speed (WS), ability to unravel their networks (AL), or an equal/greater talent for subterfuge (RG).

[Kol Saresk]

Still, I do see the Wolves taking a loooooong time to become demoralized with the wild goose chase. Some of them might even make a sport out of finding them Batmarines. So the Night Lords' fear/demoralizing tactics would be inneffective or at least take longer to work.

They don't have to demoralize the Wolves. You demoralize someone when you want them to give up. If anything, the possibility that i see as the most probable would rely on encouraging the Wolves to the point that they start to lack situational awareness, just like they did at Prospero.

 

Why do you think the Wolves wouldn't use the technology they had? Again I haven't read about the DA vs NL hunt, but if anything I'd say the DAs would be less willing to use fancy tech, given the Wolves' thing in 30k is that they do whatever it takes; "We are capable of anything, that is the point of us".

If the Wolves know it exists, then yes, that would be a very probable outcome. Canonically speaking, only Guilliman, the Lion, the Emperor, Typhon and whatever Astartes were at that compliance know of the warp engine's existence. As far as we are made aware. IIRC, the Iron Hands that Guilliman sent to retrieve know something existed, but are not aware of its nature as a sentient warp engine.

 

So, if the Wolves know about it then yes, it becomes a factor. But because as far as we know they don't know about it, the parameters of the possibilities would have to change to include knowledge of the warp engine before I personally would try to factor it in.

 

A well-organized force acting according to a proven strategic tome and prepared for what they'd find managed to win against the remnants of a Legion composed of a lot of unbalanced minds, more killer than soldiers, and whose MO relied heavily on surprise and unbalancing enemies.

 

Does go under 'plot armour' in my book.

 

Edit: Don't outright assume Russ would go in, guns blazing. He was prepared to fight against Angron and Magnus, not willing to.

Speaking as a Night Lords fan, I have to respectfully disagree. You remember the scene in Serenity when Malcom leads the Reavers into attacking the Alliance ships?

 

The Primogenitors attack on Tsalgualsa was similar. Imagine, if you will, the largest Legion ever ambushing an "eh" Legion. And not just ambushing them with a coordinated assault, but ambushing them where they have spent one hundred years getting lax in planetary and orbital security, with their guns powered down and their troops lazily lounging around, comforted by the fact that while they have spent the last century raiding the surrounding sector(s), no one has ever dared attack them.

 

That was the Shattering at Tsalgualsa. The only reason the Night Lords survived is because they are rats and cockroaches.

 

So no, it was not plot armor. Their survival might have been since A D-B was kin of forced into making sure they survived, but their defeat would have been repeated and repeated and repeated no matter how many times the event is reset.

[Legatus]

One reason generally overlooked for why the Codex Astartes is so vital for the Imperium is that it allows two Chapters from opposite sides of the galaxy who may not have had contact for thousands of years and grew up in entirely different cultures to operate effectively together as a united fighting force. Regardless of which of the thousand Chapters are combined in a campaign, they are all trained in the same, standardised doctrines, and can cooperate effectively and seamlessly. Except perhaps for the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, who should thus never have significant command roles in any joint conflict, but who are fan favouries so get the important roles anyway. The same is true for any Space Marine force that is required to fight with any Imperial Guard regiment. Without a universal doctrine, different regiments or Chapters joining up might be completely baffled by the methods of their allies.

 

On the other side of the coin, get warbands from three different traitor Legions together (or heck, just three different warbands from the same Legion), without a Primarch or mighty warmaster to lead them, and see how well they work with each other.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, there are the Black Crusades. Which go all over the place as shown below. So I'm not sure that its such a bad thing. Unorthodox maybe, but it seems to work rather well.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-faRL2iAwC6A/UlnYcc-GATI/AAAAAAAAEJ8/vsODLsVuZDQ/s1600/Warhammer_Black_Crusades.jpg

And remember, only the Thirteen Black Crusade were led by Abaddon. The rest were led by "minor figures".