What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[depthcharge12]

Would Russ' pseudo null power work on Curze? Would it block his foresight when he got close enough to him?

[Marshal Rohr]

Really depends on if its A D-B, Nick Kyme, Graham McNeill, or Dan Abnett's Curze. They are all very different. 

[Wade Garrett]

Since when does Russ have a pseudo null power?

 

If Russ has one, it certainly didn't stop Magnus from blasting him with all kinds of craziness when they fought on Prospero.

[Scribe]

Since when does Russ have a pseudo null power?

 

If Russ has one, it certainly didn't stop Magnus from blasting him with all kinds of craziness when they fought on Prospero.

 

Indeed, null power?!?

[Kais Klip]

Unless the Wolves were striking at a Night Lord homeworld why would they be any more inclined to look for the NLs at legion strength, as opposed to breaking into packs and harry the foe that way. Maybe we're getting a little too in depth or specific but I'd imagine the Wolves are just as experienced as breaking into packs and slowly goading an enemy into a throat tearing critical strike, just like how real wolves hunt. Not saying it means they would win, just saying there might be more to it than just "chasing shadows". Leave that to the more "knight" oriented legions. I think the Scars and Wolves as well as the Ravens would do a great job hunting them.

 

Scars would simply pack up their responsibilities and leave, out running the night lords and reaching their assigned objective. The unstoppable force of movement, thats their shtick. 

 

As for the wolves, as I said previously I’m trying to think of any trait they possess that would put them above the Ultramarines, World Eaters or the other “mainline workhorse” legions in pursuit of Night Lords.

 

As you say, Raven Guard would be a league above these workhorse legions in their ability to hunt the Night Lords on both a micro and macro level. So would the Alpha Legion, albeit on a more macro level, while the Salamanders would be more effective at the tactical micro aspects of any asymmetrical field (not that thats the only way the VIII can fight). 

 

Surprisingly, Extermination would leave us to believe the Imperial Fists would run the Night Wolves down like dogs, given their affinity for “void-based raider pursuit”. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't know about that. I love the Imperial Fists, but I doubt they'd do well against Night Lords. With the World Eaters and Iron Warriors it all about endurance and strength. The Night Lords are an entirely different beast. They'd use the Fists strengths against them. 

[depthcharge12]

Since when does Russ have a pseudo null power?

If Russ has one, it certainly didn't stop Magnus from blasting him with all kinds of craziness when they fought on Prospero.

Excuse me as it's been a while since I've read TS but doesn't Russ shrug off most of the psychic attacks directed at him especially during his duel with Magnus? I mean Magnus has a good chance of frying just about any primarch out there and might even possess the capacity to do the soul blast thing the Emps does (no proof, but Magnus is the second most powerful psyker in the galaxy).

 

I believe that Russ had some null maidens following him but I believe they got fried too.

[Greyall]

His howl disrupted psykers in a pretty wide radius and he reflected a psychic flame attack without doing anything, but he didn't use the howl against Magnus and he was affected by the Red's Warp attacks, so at least his resistance doesn't seem to work against Primarch-level powers. Although Magnus is at a different level even in comparison with other Primarchs.

[depthcharge12]

His howl disrupted psykers in a pretty wide radius and he reflected a psychic flame attack without doing anything, but he didn't use the howl against Magnus and he was affected by the Red's Warp attacks, so at least his resistance doesn't seem to work against Primarch-level powers. Although Magnus is at a different level even in comparison with other Primarchs.

Ah thanks.

 

While he isn't the "Null Primarch" he seems to be able to counter psykers in one way or another. I'm thinking that his howl would scramble Curze's brains for a little bit and give Russ an opening.

 

This is all just in fun and saying what could happen. Russ could entirely just trip on one of his wolves and get spontaneously combust from the 63 grenades Curze managed to sneak into Russ' bolter pouch...

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

Why do you think the Wolves wouldn't use the technology they had? Again I haven't read about the DA vs NL hunt, but if anything I'd say the DAs would be less willing to use fancy tech, given the Wolves' thing in 30k is that they do whatever it takes; "We are capable of anything, that is the point of us".

If the Wolves know it exists, then yes, that would be a very probable outcome. Canonically speaking, only Guilliman, the Lion, the Emperor, Typhon and whatever Astartes were at that compliance know of the warp engine's existence. As far as we are made aware. IIRC, the Iron Hands that Guilliman sent to retrieve know something existed, but are not aware of its nature as a sentient warp engine.

 

So, if the Wolves know about it then yes, it becomes a factor. But because as far as we know they don't know about it, the parameters of the possibilities would have to change to include knowledge of the warp engine before I personally would try to factor it in.

Fair enough, like I said I haven't read the story, I just thought the assertion 'the DAs used this fancy tech, the Wolves wouldn't because honour', didn't match with the character of the VI Legion portrayed in the series

 

One reason generally overlooked for why the Codex Astartes is so vital for the Imperium is that it allows two Chapters from opposite sides of the galaxy who may not have had contact for thousands of years and grew up in entirely different cultures to operate effectively together as a united fighting force. Regardless of which of the thousand Chapters are combined in a campaign, they are all trained in the same, standardised doctrines, and can cooperate effectively and seamlessly. Except perhaps for the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, who should thus never have significant command roles in any joint conflict, but who are fan favouries so get the important roles anyway. The same is true for any Space Marine force that is required to fight with any Imperial Guard regiment. Without a universal doctrine, different regiments or Chapters joining up might be completely baffled by the methods of their allies.

Except that isn't how it works in practice, baffling happens anyway, because almost no 'Codex' Chapter follows the same Codex interpretation as the rest. Just look at Badab, across the Chapters involved you have various differences in composition, doctrine and outlook on the war, almost to the point of civil war amongst the loyalsits with the Fire Angels and Carcharadons. Astartes, whatever their colours, are highly trained and devoted warriors and the basics of Marine combat would be pretty universal, no matter the creed a Chapter follows. A hundred Marines are still a hundred Marines and the differences between how the a Templar strike force takes a position aren't drastically more different from the Ultramarines than the Salamanders or Minotaurs. Templar and Wolf commanders end up in command of jopint operations just like all other Astartes commanders, when they have the experience (Helbrecht at 3rd Armageddon) and/or the respect of their peers (Grimnar at EoT) to command the disparate factions of the Astartes, even with the Codex 'uniting' them.

[Conn Eremon]

Well, there are the Black Crusades. Which go all over the place as shown below. So I'm not sure that its such a bad thing. Unorthodox maybe, but it seems to work rather well.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-faRL2iAwC6A/UlnYcc-GATI/AAAAAAAAEJ8/vsODLsVuZDQ/s1600/Warhammer_Black_Crusades.jpg

And remember, only the Thirteen Black Crusade were led by Abaddon. The rest were led by "minor figures".

Abaddon has led other Black Crusades. He just might not have led all of them. But there are some we know he did, like when he got the Blackstone fortress(es), when he got Drachn'yen, etc.

[mc warhammer]

i'm still making my way through this thread but a couple of thoughts:

 

curze doesn't like to debate as we can see in lord of crows. it puts his flimsy philosophy to the test and he prefers to just have his cake and eat it. i think he did try explaining himself to dorn earlier on but it seemed like he could barely control his hatred for being challenged, even then.

 

the night lord seems to have only been effection en masse as a legion due to being supported in a larger system that kept them supplied and directed despite themselves. once that system (the imperium) was no longer there for themselves, they could only function as smaller units or individuals as their approach is too parasitic. the legion's way of life was utterly dependent whether they realised it or not.

[Wade Garrett]

I think the Marines Errant and the Genesis Chapter might have a slightly different opinion about how effective the Night Lords are without the rest of the Imperium backing them up.

 

And if you're talking about Dorn & Curze's discussion in "The Dark King", red facedly bellowing KONRAD, I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG! BECAUSE HONOR! are hardly the actions of a man/Primarch attempting to begin a well reasoned dialogue wherein two gentleman of differing philosophies seek common ground.

[b1soul]

Some food for thought 

 

The Night Lords specialise at terror tactics and hit-and-run

What do the Space Wolves specialise at? They seem to be one of the more versatile legions. Close combat should be a strength of theirs but surely the Wolves are about more than just being killy in melee. 

 

If we ignore the whole "Emperor's executioners" idea, which legion would be best suited for "sanctioning" the NL?

 

Three candidates have been brought up:

1. The Scars (very good at chasing down evasive foes)

2. The Raven Guard (might be even better at "shadow warfare") 

3. The Alpha Legion (because they make other legions look stupid...no seriously, the AL counters every single legion, including themselves)

 

Of these three, which would be the best choice? 

 

With regard to the Scars, their strength is speed. Other legions play chess. The Scars play speed chess. If they can force other legions to play the speed game with them, they'll likely win. If not, they probably won't 

 

If A specialises in speed chess and B specialises in regular chess, B would be at a disadvantage if he's subject to the time limits of speed chess. However if B isn't subject to those time limits, A would be at a disadvantage.  

 

Also, Curze is an insanely good fighter. Dorn... not so much. 

 

...and what are you basing that claim on? Is Russ a mediocre fighter because the Lion has knocked him out before? 

 

 

Scars would simply pack up their responsibilities and leave, out running the night lords and reaching their assigned objective. The unstoppable force of movement, thats their shtick. 

 

Wait...so are you saying the Scars would not bother hunting the NL? 

 

 

I don't know about that. I love the Imperial Fists, but I doubt they'd do well against Night Lords. With the World Eaters and Iron Warriors it all about endurance and strength. The Night Lords are an entirely different beast. They'd use the Fists strengths against them. 

 

If "void-based raider pursuit” is an IF strength, I don't see why the IF would do poorly against the NL. They'd also do a hell of a job besieging the crap out of the places like Tsagualsa

 

 

he didn't use the howl against Magnus and he was affected by the Red's Warp attacks, so at least his resistance doesn't seem to work against Primarch-level powers. Although Magnus is at a different level even in comparison with other Primarchs.

 

Either that or Russ's "psychic resistance" reduced the damage of Magnus' psychic attacks rather than granting him complete immunity from them

[mc warhammer]

wade, if you reread my post you'll see why the marines errant situation is besides the point.

 

while the reductio ad absurdumism of the trusty "because" cracker is appreciated, i vaguely remember curze thinking that dorn was being an awful nice guy initially and hating him for it. whether it was before of after the BECAUSE HONOUR discussion i'm not sure. it's been a while. are you suggesting that if someone made a proper invite to debate, curze would be happy to hold his "have cake and eat it" approach up to the light? prince of crows seems to suggest otherwise.

[Kol Saresk]

i'm still making my way through this thread but a couple of thoughts:

 

curze doesn't like to debate as we can see in lord of crows. it puts his flimsy philosophy to the test and he prefers to just have his cake and eat it. i think he did try explaining himself to dorn earlier on but it seemed like he could barely control his hatred for being challenged, even then.

 

the night lord seems to have only been effection en masse as a legion due to being supported in a larger system that kept them supplied and directed despite themselves. once that system (the imperium) was no longer there for themselves, they could only function as smaller units or individuals as their approach is too parasitic. the legion's way of life was utterly dependent whether they realised it or not.

 

Actually according to the IA articles, when Nostramo was destroyed, the Night Lords went so far off the beaten path that the Imperium had to send reconnaissance fleets just to find evidence of their continued existence. That means they weren't attached to the normal supply routes as well. They were surviving without a larger infrastructure for twenty years.

 

And Wade was right, neither Primarch was looking for a discussion. Dorn was looking to lock Curze up for being a "witch and a traitor" just for having visions that the Imperium would have a civil war. Curze, would know the only way Dorn would find out is if the only brother he ever truly confided in(Fulgrim, of all people) told Dorn. So now he's feeling betrayed. And because Dorn is about as subtle and polite as a stampede of angry elephants in a china shop, he is feeling persecuted as well. A perfect combination for someone who is already mentally unbalanced. Throw a vision into the middle of it, a powerful and violent vision at that, and you get Curze assaulting and overpowering Dorn before coming to his senses.

[b1soul]

Throw a vision into the middle of it, a powerful and violent vision at that, and you get Curze assaulting and overpowering Dorn before coming to his senses.

 

I've had argument with people who think the above incident means Curze would stomp Dorn in  a duel 

[DuskRaider]

I do know that Dorn thinks highly of himself in personal combat, at one point even claiming he would take down Angron. Whether he can back up a boast like that or not is a completely different story.

[b1soul]

I do know that Dorn thinks highly of himself in personal combat, at one point even claiming he would take down Angron. Whether he can back up a boast like that or not is a completely different story.

 

True...but predicting the outcome of a duel between Curze and Dorn based on that incident is like predicting the outcome of a duel between the Lion and Russ based on the Lion's one-punch KO of Russ after their brawl

[Wade Garrett]

Kol:

 

We're (or at least, I am) talking about the conversation between Dorn and Konrad in The Dark King before the one where Curze went bananas.

 

It starts on page 130 of my copy of Shadows of Treachery, with the VII Primarch stomping into the Haunter's camp and ordering him to get off the planet.

 

And if we're going to use Curze shouting at Sevatar in Prince of Crows as proof he hates debate, Dorn screamed himself hoarse at Sigismund over far flimsier pretexts in Crimson Fist, and responded to Garro trying to convince him of Horus's treachery by backhanding him across the room and threatening the former Battle Captain with execution.

 

Clearly, the Praetorian is the most reasonable and diplomatic of all 18 Brothers.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Throw a vision into the middle of it, a powerful and violent vision at that, and you get Curze assaulting and overpowering Dorn before coming to his senses.

I've had argument with people who think the above incident means Curze would stomp Dorn in a duel

I wouldn't say that. Like any fight, a "duel" would have to depend on the individual circumstances. Dorn did confront Curze, but he was expecting a debate, not a fight. IIRC, he was described as not wearing any armor. I expect that wouldn't happen the second time around, wouldn't you?

 

And if we want examples of fights depending on circumstances, look no further than the Lion vs Curze. The first one, the Lion sucker punches Curze and ot essentially ends with Curze's talons around his throat before Corswain intervenes. Second time around, both Primarchs decide to make the Flash look slow and have a sixty second smackdown that composes of hundreds, if not thousands of blows, which end with Curze suffering several Astartes-fatal injuries as well as who knows if they're major or minor injuries as well as going comatose.

 

Simply put, anything could happen.

[mc warhammer]

kol, I was basing that interpretation of the legion surviving as parasites based on musings in this thread- i didn't know the IA supplied info to directly contradict that. cheers

 

as for dorn vs kurze on the debate team- i think we're talking about two different incidents.

[Kol Saresk]

Kol:

 

We're (or at least, I am) talking about the conversation between Dorn and Konrad in The Dark King before the one where Curze went bananas.

 

It starts on page 130 of my copy of Shadows of Treachery, with the VII Primarch stomping into the Haunter's camp and ordering him to get off the planet.

 

And if we're going to use Curze shouting at Sevatar in Prince of Crows as proof he hates debate, Dorn screamed himself hoarse at Sigismund over far flimsier pretexts in Crimson Fist, and responded to Garro trying to convince him of Horus's treachery by backhanding him across the room and threatening the former Battle Captain with execution.

 

Clearly, the Praetorian is the most reasonable and diplomatic of all 18 Brothers.

Okay, I'm referring to page 134, where Dorn confronts Curze after Cheraut.

[b1soul]

I wouldn't say that. Like any fight, a "duel" would have to depend on the individual circumstances. Dorn did confront Curze, but he was expecting a debate, not a fight. IIRC, he was described as not wearing any armor. I expect that wouldn't happen the second time around, wouldn't you?

 

And if we want examples of fights depending on circumstances, look no further than the Lion vs Curze. The first one, the Lion sucker punches Curze and ot essentially ends with Curze's talons around his throat before Corswain intervenes. Second time around, both Primarchs decide to make the Flash look slow and have a sixty second smackdown that composes of hundreds, if not thousands of blows, which end with Curze suffering several Astartes-fatal injuries as well as who knows if they're major or minor injuries as well as going comatose.

 

Simply put, anything could happen.

 

What's your point? A duel is generally a 1 on 1 fight for which both opponents are prepared. 

 

sucker-punch =/= duel ... unless you're defining duel as any form of physical conflict

 

The Lion sucker-punched Russ. Knocked him out cold. Is that a good predictor for the outcome of a duel between the two? I think not

 

The difference between the Lion vs. Russ and the Lion vs. Curze is that for whatever reason, the Lion chose not to attack a more vital area of Curze's body. As I recall, he stabbed Curze in the stomach (which obviously wasn't enough to incapacitate Curze). Against Russ, the Lion chose to punch him in his laughing head. 

 

If the Lion had chosen an incapacitating blow against Curze, Curze would've ended up like Russ, except the Lion wouldn't walk away. He'd finish Curze.

 

Then you'd be telling me how the Lion's surprise attack doesn't mean Curze would lose a proper duel against him.    

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

I wouldn't say that. Like any fight, a "duel" would have to depend on the individual circumstances. Dorn did confront Curze, but he was expecting a debate, not a fight. IIRC, he was described as not wearing any armor. I expect that wouldn't happen the second time around, wouldn't you?

 

And if we want examples of fights depending on circumstances, look no further than the Lion vs Curze. The first one, the Lion sucker punches Curze and ot essentially ends with Curze's talons around his throat before Corswain intervenes. Second time around, both Primarchs decide to make the Flash look slow and have a sixty second smackdown that composes of hundreds, if not thousands of blows, which end with Curze suffering several Astartes-fatal injuries as well as who knows if they're major or minor injuries as well as going comatose.

 

Simply put, anything could happen.

What's your point? A duel is generally a 1 on 1 fight for which both opponents are prepared.

 

sucker-punch =/= duel ... unless you're defining duel as any form of physical conflict

 

The Lion sucker-punched Russ. Knocked him out cold. Is that a good predictor for the outcome of a duel between the two? I think not

 

The difference between the Lion vs. Russ and the Lion vs. Curze is that for whatever reason, the Lion chose not to attack a more vital area of Curze's body. As I recall, he stabbed Curze in the stomach (which obviously wasn't enough to incapacitate Curze). Against Russ, the Lion chose to punch him in his laughing head.

 

If the Lion had chosen an incapacitating blow against Curze, Curze would've ended up like Russ, except the Lion wouldn't walk away. He'd finish Curze.

 

Then you'd be telling me how the Lion's surprise attack doesn't mean Curze would lose a proper duel against him.

So...now Lion has that thing the World Eaters have, where they can punch through artificer armor with their bare hands and rip out the wearers spine, but they use the much less effective chainaxes to fight with because YOLO?

 

Is that really the position we're going to take in this thread?