What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[Kol Saresk]

I'm sorry, could reread my post and reply with something that makes sense. Because I'm pretty sure I said "it would depend on individual circumstances", not previous circumstances where Dorn wasn't even wearing armor.

 

My whole example with the Lion was to point out that you could not predict round two based on round one. But somehow you got the opposite impression.

 

So honestly, I'm not sure what exactly you are trying say.

[b1soul]

So...now Lion has that thing the World Eaters have, where they can punch through artificer armor with their bare hands and rip out the wearers spine, but they use the much less effective chainaxes because YOLO?

 

Is that really the position we're going to take in this thread?

 

No...the position is that the Lion has [some] sense of knightly honour. Notice how that after he stabs Curze through the stomach, he doesn't proceed to saw the blade down to Curze's groin. He pulls it out and commences a duel. 

 

I really don't see how the World Eater vs. Custodes incident is relevant. 

 

The Lion wields a sword because he can't always rely on "sucker punching". When he does pull the equivalent of a "sucker punch", he might not always go for a killing or incapacitating blow. In his first fight against Curze, I'm pretty sure the Lion's first blow was his way of saying "I'm done with words Traitor, time to settle this with blades" 

[b1soul]

So honestly, I'm not sure what exactly you are trying say.

 

Let me help you: 

 

sucker punch =/= duel 

 

Curze vs. Dorn is similar to the Lion vs. Russ, neither incident is relevant to fighting prowess 

 

Everything "depends on the circumstances", that doesn't mean we can't use logic to figure out which events would be or not be good predictors of hypothetical duel 

[Hyaenidae]

Arguments about which Primarch would win in a fight against another Primarch ends the same way every time. I think we have beaten that horse enough.

 

I'm far more interested in how the two Legions would engage on a fluid battlefield, or in a large scale Crusade. I can see the Wolves moving cautiously, stalking like wary hunters looking for a weakness in the lines of their prey. The Night Lords would definitely be in strike and fade mode, trying to goad the beast into rash action.

 

It would be a slow, cautious war, broken intermittently by furious engagements that know no equal. I'd love to read about that.

[mc warhammer]

wade, i'm not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding my point or if i'm just hopeless at expressing it but "shouting" has nothing to do with it and neither does dorn's capacity for nurture.

 

the issue is that the heart of curze's rationale is rotten. he knows it and seems deathly afraid of having it poked a prodded. he's overprotective of the lies he tells himself because he is desperate to keep believing them. this is not the mindset of a person open to challenge and constructive criticism in any form.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, then I hate disappoint then what happened after the Lion pulled his sword out of Curze was not "commencing a duel". It was "continue an ambush".

 

And since duels are

 

1.

a contest with deadly weapons arranged between two people in order to settle a point of honor.

synonyms: affair of honor; single combat; (sword) fight, confrontation, face-off, shoot-out

"he was killed in a duel"

(in modern use) a contest or race between two parties.

"two eminent critics engaged in a verbal duel"

synonyms: contest, match, game, meet, encounter More

 

Could you provide such an example happening between two Primarchs so far in the series?

[b1soul]

Arguments about which Primarch would win in a fight against another Primarch ends the same way every time. I think we have beaten that horse enough.

 

I agree...but I'm not arguing that "the Lion > Curze" or "Dorn > Curze"

 

I'm saying the Dorn/Curze incident doesn't even qualify as a primarch fight 

[Kol Saresk]

Arguments about which Primarch would win in a fight against another Primarch ends the same way every time. I think we have beaten that horse enough.

 

I'm far more interested in how the two Legions would engage on a fluid battlefield, or in a large scale Crusade. I can see the Wolves moving cautiously, stalking like wary hunters looking for a weakness in the lines of their prey. The Night Lords would definitely be in strike and fade mode, trying to goad the beast into rash action.

 

It would be a slow, cautious war, broken intermittently by furious engagements that know no equal. I'd love to read about that.

Exactly. At least, that is what I vote as the most predictable outcome.

 

wade, i'm not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding my point or if i'm just hopeless at expressing it but "shouting" has nothing to do with it and neither does dorn's capacity for nurture.

 

the issue is that the heart of curze's rationale is rotten. he knows it and seems deathly afraid of having it poked a prodded. he's overprotective of the lies he tells himself because he is desperate to keep believing them. this is not the mindset of a person open to challenge and constructive criticism in any form.

Curze is your typical hypocrite. He will condemn something like say, a neutral action such as judging and judge everyone who judges to be hypocrites, liars and monsters without ever realizing that he is judging them himself and he will refuse to see it no matter how many times or how blatantly it is pointed out.

 

In this case, Curze condemns murderers and monsters. He is a murderer and a monster. But for the most part, he refuses to see. The difference is that there is a part that sees it. And that small, glimmer of realization and guilt at what he has become and that is what has ultimately led to his insanity. A refusal to see the truth even though he fully realizes it deep inside the darkest shadow of his black and rotten heart.

[mc warhammer]

especially when it's staring him right in the face. he must have done his best to steer clear of ultramar...

 

i think his problem extends to not accepting himself and his own desires. after all, he picks up a weapon immediately on crash landing and it excites him. he wanted social justice but he also enjoyed inflicting pain and cruelty. he's your typical cake and eat it scenario. well, not that typical...

[b1soul]

Well, then I hate disappoint then what happened after the Lion pulled his sword out of Curze was not "commencing a duel". It was "continue an ambush".

 

 

Are you purposefully dodging the main issue? Answer these questions please: 

 

Is what Curze did to Dorn similar to what the Lion did to Russ? 

 

Would it not be silly to predict the outcome of a conventional duel on either incident?

[Kol Saresk]

Yes.

 

And could you answer my question and tell where I did use that confrontation to predict the next fight?

 

Because I'm pretty sure I didn't make a prediction.

[Wade Garrett]

Curze has never shied away from discussing his philosophy.

 

Not with his inner circle (Soul Hunter) nor his victims (Prince of Crows) or even his enemies (the chat with Lion in Savage Weapons).

 

Indeed, it's getting him to shut up that's usually the problem.

[mc warhammer]

is what you describe a discussion or a sermon?

[b1soul]

Yes.

 

And could you answer my question and tell where I did use that confrontation to predict the next fight?

 

Because I'm pretty sure I didn't make a prediction.

 

You know what, never mind...I think you and I are in agreement. I got confused. My bad

 

As for the Lion vs. Curze R1, I'm not saying "the Lion > Curze" or anything to that effect.

 

The Lion struck the first blow out of nowhere. That begs the question...why didn't he strike a more vital area? Why didn't he maximise damage? Well...I believe that even though the Lion essentially "out-dirtied" Curze on that occasion (quite ironically), the Lion wasn't dirty enough to kill Curze mid-conversation. Make no mistake, Curze could've just as easily pulled off something similar. It just so happened that the Lion had the intention to do it and pulled the trigger first.

 

After that, it pretty much transpired like a primarch duel. Curze vs. the Lion R1 is relevant to comparing the fighting prowess of the combatants. It actually casts Curze in a rather favourable light. He has to deal with an initial disadvantage and at one point he gains a distinct advantage. It's arguable whether the Lion would've survived had Corswain not jumped in   

 

I actually favour interpreting the R1 as a Curze victory although the authour has stated that it's a draw: 

 

 

Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them. The Lion won a little bit. Then Curze won a little bit. A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away. It ends as a draw several minutes later.

[Wade Garrett]

With all due respect to ADB, that's like saying the first match between Rocky and Clubber Lang in Rocky III was a draw, because if there had been no referee to stop it, perhaps the Italian Stallion might have picked himself up and eventually won, like he did in the street fight with Tommy Gunn in Rocky V.

[Kol Saresk]

@b1soul: That's because Corswain shifted the fight when he shoved a sword through Curze's spine. When they left Tsalgualsa, both Primarchs were so exhausted that their respective Legions had to drag them from the battlefield. In all intents and purposes, it was made a draw by outside interference.

[b1soul]

With all due respect to ADB, that's like saying the first match between Rocky and Clubber Lang in Rocky III was a draw, because if there had been no referee to stop it, perhaps the Italian Stallion might have picked himself up and eventually won, like he did in the street fight with Tommy Gunn in Rocky V.

 

 

@b1soul: That's because Corswain shifted the fight when he shoved a sword through Curze's spine. When they left Tsalgualsa, both Primarchs were so exhausted that their respective Legions had to drag them from the battlefield. In all intents and purposes, it was made a draw by outside interference.

 

I agree with the two of you. I actually argued with ADB over this. 

 

If we look at this quote: 

 

"Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them. The Lion won a little bit. Then Curze won a little bit. A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away. It ends as a draw several minutes later."

 

ADB is saying don't judge prematurely. Even absent Corwain's intervention, the Lion might have a second wind and turn the tide. 

 

I would agree that the actual text doesn't suggest the Lion is about to have a second wind. The Lion seems pretty screwed...but the authour has cleared up his true intent.  

[Grimtooth]

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

ADB, I question your first scenario just with what material has been provided in Battle of the Fang and later on it Blood of Asaheim.

 

In Battle of the Fang we see the mentality of the entire chapter with the exception of one wolf lord completely intent on the hunt for the Thousand Sons and Magnus due to the perception of honor lost at "allowing" them to escape at Prospero.  This was a thousand years after the heresy and they were still of a single-minded that the Sons used that to basically ransack the Aett on Fenris and destroy the Tempering.

 

If we fast forward to Blood of Asaheim, we once again see the how driven the VIth is in their pursuit of their enemies.  The members of the Rout express their concern in being run ragged in continued hunts and the portrayal of Ragnar is one of an exhausted wolf lord, yet still intent in the mission of the Wolves.

 

Both stories lend themselves to the VIth being intent on complete eradication of Curze and his Legion no matter how many worlds need to be passed over full of carnage and death.  I think their single-minded purpose and dogged loyalty to a fault would supercede anything that Curze would do to try and psychologically wear them down.  The injustice that you speak of would only further drive them in their purpose as it did with the escape of the Thousand Sons from Prospero and in current 40k with what was displayed in Blood of Asaheim.  That is one thing that I took away from the both novels, the Wolves will drive themselves to the edge of extinction in their pursuit of an enemy and fulfillment of what they have been tasked in the name of honor and justice. 

[Kol Saresk]

Doesn't mean they always catch up or succeed though. After all, the Thousand Sons are still kicking it in 40K.

[b1soul]

I'd be interested in knowing why the Dark Angels were picked to deal with the Night Lords...and by that I mean by in-universe and out-of-universe reasons

 

Were they the only available legion (all other legions busily engaged elsewhere)? Did the BL team think the DA and  the NL are a good thematic pairing? 

[Scribe]

I'd be interested in knowing why the Dark Angels were picked to deal with the Night Lords...and by that I mean by in-universe and out-of-universe reasons

 

Were they the only available legion (all other legions busily engaged elsewhere)? Did the BL team think the DA and  the NL are a good thematic pairing? 

 

Cool question. Is there a previously standing fluff reason at all? I'm not aware of it if so...

[b1soul]

Cool question. Is there a previously standing fluff reason at all? I'm not aware of it if so...

 

I think Scars vs. Night Lords would've been a great match-up as well. They could compare scalp collections 

[Kol Saresk]

Actually I think it was more like the Night Lords were picked for the Dark Angels.

 

Recall, page 296 of Shadows of Treachery, excerpted from Prince of Crows

 

'Run?' Asked another. 'We have a duty to keep the First Legion engaged here.'

 

I could be wrong, but the impression I received was that the Dark Angels found themselves in the Galactic East following Diamat, and the Night Lords had been tasked by Horus to delay them.

 

Funnily enough, this happened in a discussion where the old Kyroptera was discussing turning around and attacking the Dark Angels with verything they could muster. Kind of weird for a Legion most consider unable and unwilling to fight other Astartes. :P

[b1soul]

Kind of weird for a Legion most consider unable and unwilling to fight other Astartes.

Definitely not unwilling or unable as has been demonstrated in multiple sources

However, the Night Lords' greatest weapon (terror) isn't as potent against enemy Astartes as it is against mortals who haven't been psycho-indoctrinated to "know no fear"

[depthcharge12]

Yes what Kol said. The NLs were picked by Horus to delay the Dark Angels and those meddling kids so that they didn't make it to Terra to reinforce it.

 

As to why BL chose them...well your guess is as good as mine, possibly just picked an intern and he said "Green guys fight Blue lightning guys" :P

 

 

I personally would have preferred the Dark Angels to go stomp some other legion so I could brag about here on the B&C, but at least the Thramas crusade shows the Lions tactical ability to engage an asymmetrical enemy at times and still draw a tie or even pull out a few subjective wins.