What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[b1soul]

I personally would have preferred the Dark Angels to go stomp some other legion so I could brag about here on the B&C, but at least the Thramas crusade shows the Lions tactical ability to engage an asymmetrical enemy at times and still draw a tie or even pull out a few subjective wins.

 

The Dark Angels won the Thramas Crusade 

 

...though you could attribute it to magic Warp tech

[Grimtooth]

Doesn't mean they always catch up or succeed though. After all, the Thousand Sons are still kicking it in 40K.

And that wasn't anything I said at all.  The same can be said of their current state of affairs as mentioned in Blood of Asaheim.  The traitor Legions are still alive and kicking in 40k, and the Wolves are running themselves ragged in pursuit of them.

[Kol Saresk]

Not disagreeing there. Just seems kind of weird that the internet's first reaction is "the Night Lords will lose". For example, the beginning of this thread. Or even now. Most of the predictions for a direct confrontation are that the Night Lords will lose because they do not do direct confrontations. But in Prince of Crows, they were clamoring for a direct confrontation.

 

I myself predict the most probable outcome to be a hit-and-fade campaign that lasts for quite sometime.

 

But then we get Forgeworld. "Terror Assault." And honestly, the base idea is hit as fast possible, knock your opponent off-balance an then keep hitting until they're dead. The only "terror" your opponent will feel is that(hopefully) you're attacking to fast for them to properly respond.

 

Not exactly standard terror tactics is it? And certainly not something we see a lot of in the fluff. I'll say it once again, the Night Lords are the Failbaddon Legion.

[b1soul]

Not disagreeing there. Just seems kind of weird that the internet's first reaction is "the Night Lords will lose". For example, the beginning of this thread. Or even now. Most of the predictions for a direct confrontation are that the Night Lords will lose because they do not do direct confrontations. But in Prince of Crows, they were clamoring for a direct confrontation.

 

You could argue that those clamouring Night Lords were behaving out of character under rather unique circumstances, whereas Sevatar was keeping his cool and behaving and thinking like a proper Night Lord. 

 

As I recall, some of the NL wanted to strike back at the DA because the DA had just inflicted very heavy damage to the NL. You could say that their emotions got the better of them (desire for revenge) and they were tempted to abandon their typical MO.  

[mc warhammer]

maybe someone can clue me in here.

 

essentially the night lords are built for powerful combat as well as any other astartes. same organs, similar results. surviving the process to become an astartes sounds like you need supreme mental and physical fortitude. they have access to all the same equipment and training (i assume).

 

so what is it that is supposed to make them less capable in direct assault or less able to engage in it when forced? i can understand it not being a preference or even their speciality but why are they seen as so lacking in this regard? is the blame on the murderer culture? their primarch's madness and inconsistency? or have they just not been given a decent chance to shine (or at least hold their own) in this regard?

[b1soul]

maybe someone can clue me in here.

 

so what is it that is supposed to make them less capable in direct assault or less able to engage in it when forced? i can understand it not being a preference or even their speciality but why are they seen as so lacking in this regard?

 

They're not seen as lacking. It's just not their forte. No one thinks they can't do it or can't do it well. They just might not be as good at "direct assault"  as some other legions specifically geared for it are

 

What makes other legions less adept at "terror tactics" than the NL? Same principle...other legions don't specialise at "terror tactics". Does that mean the Iron Warriors can't go around flaying everyone? Of course not. That simply means the IW wouldn't be as good at applying these tactics to achieve maximum effect. It's not what they're best at. 

 

Keep in mind that being good at "direct assault" isn't just about being physically strong. A lot of coordination and discipline is involved. The Night Lords have a culture that predisposes them away from pitched battle-style confrontations. Their lack of discipline would also be a weakness when conducting "direct assaults". This doesn't mean the NL are undisciplined, it means they're on average less disciplined than, say, the Ultramarines

[mc warhammer]

that's more or less how i interpret things but it seems that some portions of the online community don't agree...so i was curious about why they saw it that way.

[Kol Saresk]

that's more or less how i interpret things but it seems that some portions of the online community don't agree...so i was curious about why they saw it that way.

Because for the largest part, they're basically presented as the "Failbaddon" Legion. What that means that for the most part, they have been shown with very few solid, Night Lord victories. And most, if not all, of those are found in background sources such as the IA articles and the Forgeworld HH books.

 

The rest of the time, the "glory is shared, they're losing, its a draw, or its a pyrrhic victory.

 

And no offense to A D-B, but his writings are a perfect example of this. Every victory was a pyyrhic victory. The ship was boarded while retreating. An entire ship was destroyed. By killing First Claw, Ulthwé brought about the very future that would ensure their destruction.

 

And it all works against them. Despite their very awesome portrayals, they have very little going for them in terms of "epicness", such as Calth, Armatura, Sheol, Diamat, Prospero and etc.

[Greyall]

Well, it's just that you have pretty few examples of the Night Lords acting as a coherent force on a large scale and winning. Like b1soul said, it's not the individual Legionnaire's qualities that are in question, it's that they're almost wasted (or, rather, too strained) due to lack of organization and over-improvisation.

 

The Night Lords are actually pretty effective in assault, if you mean it in the regular sense and not the Astartes' usual "honourable" sense. The NL create situations of numerical superiority from which they can safely wipe or disorient their enemies, which actually makes a lot of sense in regular military terms, I think.

 

The thing is, once they're unable to have that advantage in numbers, they tend to shy away from battle or go down Improv Lane, which sometimes leaves their enemies confused, and others results in a lot of bat-winged helmets lying on the ground...

[Legatus]

The Night Lords have been my main Chaos force since 2nd Edition. (I also got a decent number of World Eater units.) But I don't need them to win big time or be "epic". They are mean nasty mofos. They are baddies. Testaments to their dreaded reputation are all I want from the books. Short lines like "what have you brought to my world?" - "Konrad!" are great for that. Being a huge pain but ultimately being defeated is all I want from them. As long as they are presented as a scary foe in the process.

 

But maybe that is because they are not my only army, and because I also have a few "hero" armies, which I do want to see win. Though from 2nd to 5th Edition, the Night Lords were probably my second most played army.

 

And I have to admit, I would want to see the World Eaters depicted as a strong Legion much more so than the Night Lords. For the World Eaters, their combat strength is pretty much what they are about. But for the Night Lords, that never really was their theme. At least not to me.

 

I have also allways seen the Space Wolves as one of the strongest Legions/Chapters. (I just can't see all Legions/Chapters as "basically equal". Some have a much stronger defined "combat" theme or a greater record of achievements than others.) So on the question of a confrontation between the Space Wolves and the Night Lords, in a direct clash I would expect the Space Wolves to come out on top every time. But as many others have already said, the Night Lords would probably try to evade too many direct clashes that are not heavily stacked in their favour. It would probably play out as the Night Lords getting the drop on a few Space Wolves forces here and there, inflicting heavy damage, but ultimately the Legion being driven off and being forced to retreat by the Space Wolves.

[b1soul]

no offense to A D-B, but his writings are a perfect example of this. 

 

They don't have a lot of macro-victories. They have micro-victories. 

 

For instance, First Claw destroying a Blood Angels squad without losing a single man. First Claw has a habit of butchering loyalist SM left and right without suffering casualties of their own. I don't see how NL fans wouldn't be down with that.   

 

Throughout the NL series, there are almost no graphic descriptions of NL deaths caused by loyalist SM...whereas there are many, many graphic descriptions of the opposite (loyalists getting gutted, bisected, strangled, decapitated, head-shotted, hung from hooks, tortured etc. you name it...) 

 

In the HH series, Sevatar  removes Alajos' face in an earlier battle, then beheads him the second time they encounter each other. Sevatar slaughters his way through packs of hapless DA in Prince of Crows. Curze almost chokes the Lion to death in their first battle.

 

The Ultramarine successors scour Tsagualsa...but it's driven home that they Ultras have overwhelming numerical superiority. The "camera" then follows First Claw as they kill their way through the invaders and make a daring escape.  

 

NL fans should be pretty pleased with ADB's work. It's has many "pro-NL" elements. It's just not all pro-NL. They lose on a macro-level mainly because (1) the Traitors lost the Heresy and after the Heresy the (2) NL often fight each other or other renegades

 

Even so, ADB often has NL inflict heavy losses upon loyalist SM and Imperials in general    

[A D-B]

 

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

ADB, I question your first scenario just with what material has been provided in Battle of the Fang and later on it Blood of Asaheim.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a 3-minute pithy quote on a forum is the definitive answer on something so complex and nuanced as this - it's not even what I'd write if I was the one doing it - but it was notable enough to include.

 

That said, the Space Wolves of 30K aren't the ones of 40K, even if their mindsets have familiar callbacks to one another, so those aren't perfect sources. The subject's infinitely more complex than "No, they'd just keep going no matter what" because not all of them would. Legions are incredibly varied and nuanced things, with a wealth of personalities. The Space Wolves will have many warriors that would do just that, out of a desire for personal glory, myopic barbarian zeal, or a sense of unbreakable duty - such as the 13th Great Company in the Eye of Terror. 

 

But then there'll be the Wolves whose Viking hearts don't eternally harden at the sight of the trillions being massacred and left for the crows - they might decide that their duty as Mankind's warrior elite lies elsewhere rather than in a fruitless hunt. Others, glory-starved, will find that their warrior souls call them to other (even more terrible) wars, while still others believe that chasing a wounded rat is beneath them, when their overall duty is to the people of the Imperium, and there are other ways of coordinating a real, lasting shield around the helpless mortals rather than all of the hopeless chasing that's getting trillions slain all for some madman's pathetic philosophy.

 

That's the beautiful thing about the Legions - their insane breadth of compelxity, and not just Red vs. Blue on a game board.

 

Heck, for all of the propaganda in Prospero Burns, there will still be disloyal Space Wolves in the Heresy. Traitors in Loyalist Legions aren't something "everyone except the Space Wolves" has to suffer. The only souls utterly, wholly incapable of disloyalty in this entire Bangarang are the Legiones Custodes. I have absolutely zero passion for the idea of Traitor Space Wolves, and no desire to write about it, but it illustrates the point: It's very difficult to ever say "Legion #Whatever would definitely do this" in any circumstance. Maybe they would for a while. Maybe half of them would keep doing it, and the other half would do something else afterwards. And so on.

 

Above all, Leman Russ isn't (in my opinion) a hidebound idiot. I've posted about it elsewhere:

 

 

This is 100% personal bias, I admit that upfront, but that's the Russ I see, yeah. I try not to present him purely like that - everything is implication and suggestion, so I don't collide with other interpretations, but that's the Russ I like best. And the source is likely pretty obvious, in that I freaking love all of Howard's perceptions on barbarism versus civilisation, with the merits and flaws of both.

 

There's also that great Stephen King quote, when good ol' local boy Stu Redman says in The Stand, when he's being talked down to by the government pen-pusher: "Country don't mean dumb." I love that. Same thing here; a tribal culture doesn't mean primitive thought. It means grounded, down-to-earth thinking, at every level of intelligence, and a lack of pretension. It means honesty. Not universally, but generally. It's why Loki's such an incredible aberration that forever confounds the other gods. He's so... dishonest.

 

I read a lot of Howard, and I love the Conan stories. They're far, far from the shallow drek a lot of people take them for (see: Arnie's movies, and the new movie), and what barbarism comes down to above all else is honesty. The Russ I love most speaks his mind, does what he thinks is right, and is honest unto death. His Wolves are the same.

 

"What do I know of cultured ways; the gilt, the craft, and the lie?

I who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile; they fail when the broadswords sing,

Rush in and die, dogs. I was a man before I was a king."

 

-- The Phoenix on the Sword.

 

...and I hold to the idea that Leman Russ would put aside personal glory, and even direct orders, to do the right thing. Much like the Wolves of 40K. Now, the "right thing" could be an eternal chase, a la the 13th Company, or one of the legends of his own "disappearance". Or it could be instantly beating the Night Lords around the head with sexy void-pack tactics, much like the Night Lords often get their void tactics alluded to as Nostraman sharks in my work. It could also be swallowing his warrior pride and guarding every world he can, anticipating Night Lord raids and sacrificing his men to make sure each world holds out long enough to wait for reinforcements. Abandoning the glory of the Hunt, for the necessity of a new, graver Duty.

 

And so on.

 

But for what it's worth, I absolutely agree with you. Most Space Wolves would go for the eternal chase, for better or worse. Just not all, and in the face of honest futility (which, note, I'm still not saying would definitely happen), Leman of the Russ is a very smart guy. So are his sons.

 

 

 

 

 

NL fans should be pretty pleased with ADB's work. It's has many "pro-NL" elements. It's just not all pro-NL. 

 

Heh. It's not a worry, b1soul. The lynching comment earlier was a joke.  

[Noctus Cornix]

*hides his noose* Err.... Yes... A joke...

[Greyall]

From what we saw in Thousand Sons (I haven't read Prospero Burns), Russ' sense of duty isn't much smaller than Dorn's, he's just more 'barbaric' in accomplishing his assigned goals - read: heroic, glory-bound.

 

So it'd have to be something really conscience-rocking to make Russ throw his orders away and do 'the right thing'. Then again, that something might be what sparks the 40K Wolves' good-guy mantra.

 

Because right now Russ is full of good values and intentions but really too self-righteous to pass them on to his brothers.

[Kol Saresk]

@b1soul: Actually I am probably one of the more avid, if not rabid, fans of A D-B's works. Honeslty when I first heard of Soul Hunter, the name "Aaron Dembski-Bowden" made me go "who is this guy and will it be as good as Lord of the Night?" And you know what, it was. And I understand the "microvictories." That's why I used the Failbaddon analogy. In reality, Abaddon acheived his goals to one degree or another in each of the first Twelve Black Crusades. But because none of them "conquered the Imperium", they are seen from both the Imperium's viewpoint and the viewpoint of Imperial fans as "the Twelve Big Failures". Tons of "small victories", but no big victories.

 

And it is a sort of problem with the perception. When it comes to Astartes vs Astartes, really only the Night Lords fans and admirers give them any credit at the possibility of success. Everyone else is just sort of "No. It can't happen. It hasn't happened before so it obviously cannot happen ever."

 

@Greyall: Actually the Night Lords go for tactical superiority, period. Sometimes this relies on numerical superiority and being outnumbered by Night Lords is a situation no one wants to be in, but even Massacre points out where 500 destroyed a city of millions through the use psychoactive drugs and orbital bombardments to disorient their foes and a stealth insertion followed moving faster than their enemies could match before finally just dumping the entire city and any survivors into the chasm it sat over. Granted, that was Pre-Curze. But when put into comparison with how Sevatar and his Atramentar operate, it doesn't seem like the apple fell far from the tree.

[A D-B]

From what we saw in Thousand Sons (I haven't read Prospero Burns), Russ' sense of duty isn't much smaller than Dorn's, he's just more 'barbaric' in accomplishing his assigned goals - read: heroic, glory-bound.

 

So it'd have to be something really conscience-rocking to make Russ throw his orders away and do 'the right thing'. Then again, that something might be what sparks the 40K Wolves' good-guy mantra.

 

Because right now Russ is full of good values and intentions but really too self-righteous to pass them on to his brothers.

 

Everyone writes the primarchs differently, I guess. One of the reasons I don't want to touch several Legions is because my interpretation of them is so different to what's been shown in spades by this point, that there's the risk it'd be too jarring. My Blood Angels aren't Jim's Blood Angels, and my Space Wolves aren't Dan's Space Wolves - but that's just how it should be. There should be individual variance, because that's what this license is. It's not everyone writing to the same beats, it's everyone looking at the same concepts through different lenses. Just like it's always been.

 

But the Alpha Legion and the Emperor's Children? I wouldn't go anywhere near them at this point. They'd look like two completely different Legions if I touched them. That's not to say I don't like how they're portrayed - I'm open in my love for both Legion and Fulgrim - just that it's not how I imagine them by and large, and I'm not sure it'd benefit the series at this stage to offer another viewpoint.

 

I could be wrong, natch.

[Greyall]

True, that, and I guess one can almost always find the mind-path to justify an action, even with a character's past actions apparently contradicting it.

 

At this point, it'd be pretty easy to create a change in Russ' heart. His dutybound ways had him destroy an otherwise loyal Legion that could've helped against Horus, and he's been shown to be pretty pissed because of it. Really, it's the perfect ground for growing the 40K Wolf mentality.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know, in some cases, a different view point for some Legions could be a good thing. For example, I know more than a few Alpha Legion fans who would like to see something that didn't involve everyone and their dog being Alpharius for once.

[TemujinZero]

But the Alpha Legion and the Emperor's Children? I wouldn't go anywhere near them at this point. They'd look like two completely different Legions if I touched them. That's not to say I don't like how they're portrayed - I'm open in my love for both Legion and Fulgrim - just that it's not how I imagine them by and large, and I'm not sure it'd benefit the series at this stage to offer another viewpoint.

 

I could be wrong, natch.

Oh, PLEASE give us some ADB style Alpha Legion.  Looking like two completely different legions is hardly a problem where the XX are concerned.

[Greyall]

@Kol: I agree with you, might've not phrased it well, but I do think it's pretty fine and interesting for different views of the same character to be written.

[Kol Saresk]

 

@Kol: I agree with you, might've not phrased it well, but I do think it's pretty fine and interesting for different views of the same character to be written.

Oh lol. Honestly I was replying to A D-B's post. :P

[Captain Juan Juarez]

But the Alpha Legion and the Emperor's Children? I wouldn't go anywhere near them at this point. They'd look like two completely different Legions if I touched them. That's not to say I don't like how they're portrayed - I'm open in my love for both Legion and Fulgrim - just that it's not how I imagine them by and large, and I'm not sure it'd benefit the series at this stage to offer another viewpoint.

 

I could be wrong, natch.

 

I suppose it would depend on how radically different you see them, or would write them, being. I don't think either Legion would suffer from having a little internal inconsistency in terms of how they were protrayed and, as has been noted above, that whole crew of.. Alpharii?.. that is the XX Legion would positively thrive on it.

[Kais Klip]

"I know the nastiest, skull-crushing secret in here, but I won't tell you guys, it totally wouldn't be right."

 

Throw us the most vaguest of elevator pitches, ADB, and I'll upload a clip of a grown man squealing in delight to soundcloud.

[mc warhammer]

adb, what did you love about Fulgrim? i think i've made my distaste clear but i'm interested in another take, especially an author's.

 

speaking of other takes- surely a pre-fall reinterpretation of the emperors children would fit into continuity? their crusade era character has hardly been touched (the snippets of fulgrim in Prospero Burns and Prince of Crows hinted at more depth to the primarch than the book named for him).

 

are all bl authors so powerfully attached to their own idea of a legion or character portrayal that they can't play off of another author's? is it all "my way or no way"? is sanguinnius' hair colour in constant danger?

[DarKnight]

I do know that Dorn thinks highly of himself in personal combat, at one point even claiming he would take down Angron. Whether he can back up a boast like that or not is a completely different story.

When did Dorn make this claim?