What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[Augustus]

In the Lightning Tower audio drama.

[Wade Garrett]

The Lighting Tower short story.

 

As to how objectively true that is...anything can happen once it's go time. Sometimes Konrad chokes the Lion, sometimes Lion chops him up like a pot roast, and sometimes Konrad Hans Gruber's Lion AND Guilliman and then kills Vulkan five times, I believe the phrase is, like a boss.

[DuskRaider]

It's true, any Primarch can beat another given the circumstances. Dorn beating Angron would probably need the circumstances that Angron is in a coma, however.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah... Combat isn't Dorns thing.

[A D-B]

It's true, any Primarch can beat another given the circumstances. Dorn beating Angron would probably need the circumstances that Angron is in a coma, however.

 

I'd love to see them meet up.

 

"Sir, Angron has broken through the last barricade. He'll be here in a matter of minutes."

 

"...what? How is he leading his army?"

 

"He's not, sir. He's just sort of running around and chopping dudes up."

 

"This is why he loses wars. I want Squads X, Y, and Z to hold the spinal thoroughfares here and here. I want Unit 57 to fall back to Junction 17 and keep the tunnels open long enough to evacuate the supplies, then set Tarantulas in place along..."

 

"DORN. I HAVE COME FOR YOU."

 

"...along the avenue of retreat. Evacuate any mortals in the northward passages, but not at the cost of losing any of our fallback points."

 

"DORN! I WILL TOTALLY KILL YOU, FOR REALLY REALS."

 

"Secure all three tertiary hangars for the Khan's gunships. He told me he'd be back before sunset, and I'm taking him at his word."

 

"FACE ME, DORN. STOP IGNORING ME. HONOUR AND GLORY AND STUFF."

 

"Okay, if we surrender the south-side vista, we can reinforce our secondary blockades here, here, and here... That will provide a bastion for now. Sigismund, see to that. In the Emperor's name, give no ground. We'll have them broken by the time the Brute runs out of Caps Lock challenges."

 

"YOU'RE A COWARD, DORN. YOU'RE ACTING LIKE A CLEVER GENERAL WITH A WAR TO WIN. DON'T MAKE ME COME  UP THERE."

[Greyall]

Mayhap he has a plan to take Angron down...He's a thinker, the golden boy. But still, unlikely indeed, probably spoken out of rage. Although, said quote is more about Dorn listing things he'd be afraid of. So it may be more of a 'I'd face him any time' boast.

 

All we've seen until now, even from another thinker like Guilliman, is other Primarchs just throwing themselves at Angron. Which ended up as expected - bar death.

[depthcharge12]

 

It's true, any Primarch can beat another given the circumstances. Dorn beating Angron would probably need the circumstances that Angron is in a coma, however.

 

I'd love to see them meet up.

 

"Sir, Angron has broken through the last barricade. He'll be here in a matter of minutes."

 

"...what? How is he leading his army?"

 

"He's not, sir. He's just sort of running around and chopping dudes up."

 

"This is why he loses wars. I want Squads X, Y, and Z to hold the spinal thoroughfares here and here. I want Unit 57 to fall back to Junction 17 and keep the tunnels open long enough to evacuate the supplies, then set Tarantulas in place along..."

 

"DORN. I HAVE COME FOR YOU."

 

"...along the avenue of retreat. Evacuate any mortals in the northward passages, but not at the cost of losing any of our fallback points."

 

"DORN! I WILL TOTALLY KILL YOU, FOR REALLY REALS."

 

"Secure all three tertiary hangars for the Khan's gunships. He told me he'd be back before sunset, and I'm taking him at his word."

 

"FACE ME, DORN. STOP IGNORING ME. HONOUR AND GLORY AND STUFF."

 

"Okay, if we surrender the south-side vista, we can reinforce our secondary blockades here, here, and here... That will provide a bastion for now. Sigismund, see to that. In the Emperor's name, give no ground. We'll have them broken by the time the Brute runs out of Caps Lock challenges."

 

"YOU'RE A COWARD, DORN. YOU'RE ACTING LIKE A CLEVER GENERAL WITH A WAR TO WIN. DON'T MAKE ME COME  UP THERE."

 

The question really is can Dorn win a blinking challenge like Sanguinius. That way leads to defeating Angron.

[DuskRaider]

Dorn (like Guilliman, Horus, Mortarion, etc.) is the epitome of what a Primarch should be. A commander first and foremost, directing his army to attack pinpoint locations, calling for resupplies in area of combat, redirecting companies, so on and so forth. Angron, much like Curze, cannot accomplish this. They just simply can't be a leader. Whilst they can best many (or pretty much all) of their brothers in combat, you'll never see them successfully command a campaign without major help from their subordinates. This is especially true for Angron, who can't even brush his teeth without killing someone.

[Marshal Rohr]

If you use the rules shot Angron with a Fellblade and then let Sigismund at him :P

 

Dorn (like Guilliman, Horus, Mortarion, etc.) is the epitome of what a Primarch should be. A commander first and foremost, directing his army to attack pinpoint locations, calling for resupplies in area of combat, redirecting companies, so on and so forth. Angron, much like Curze, cannot accomplish this. They just simply can't be a leader. Whilst they can best many (or pretty much all) of their brothers in combat, you'll never see them successfully command a campaign without major help from their subordinates. This is especially true for Angron, who can't even brush his teeth without killing someone.

Surely all Primarchs have some kind of innate abilities with strategy?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Dorn (like Guilliman, Horus, Mortarion, etc.) is the epitome of what a Primarch should be. A commander first and foremost, directing his army to attack pinpoint locations, calling for resupplies in area of combat, redirecting companies, so on and so forth. Angron, much like Curze, cannot accomplish this. They just simply can't be a leader. Whilst they can best many (or pretty much all) of their brothers in combat, you'll never see them successfully command a campaign without major help from their subordinates. This is especially true for Angron, who can't even brush his teeth without killing someone.

Agree on Angron but Curze has never been stated to be tactically inept.

[Aegnor]

Angron isn't inept. Until the Siege of Terra, he wins every battle he undertakes, in the terms he considers important.

[Conn Eremon]

A man who can appreciate the finer points of a strategy laid out by one of his tactical genius brothers while in the grasp of the Nails and potentially the most blinding, murderous anger he had ever thus far experienced (short story, After Desh'ea) can not be considered tactically inept.

[DuskRaider]

And yet he pushes his "sons" to undergo the same brain surgery that tortures him at every waking hour and causes him to make many tactical errors (see Isstvan III, Armatura among others). Bellowing like a wounded beast and charging headlong into enemy fire isn't a tactic... well it is, but it's called suicide run. I'm not saying Angron (or Curze) were completely inept, but it wasn't their strong point. Mainly Angron, but honestly Curze couldn't even keep his Legion at heel and lost control. The Night Lords are little more than numberless warbands that group together occasionally to take down larger prey. It was this was in 30K, it's the same way in 40K. Perhaps a bit more organized (especially when Curze was less of a nutter), but the theory stays the same.

[Greyall]

Angron's very decision to have his sons get 'The Brainbuzz' was heavily clouded. It starts with him viewing personal close combat as the only proper way to make war, but then spirals completely out of any rationality...

 

And I wouldn't immediately ditch Curze's ability to strategize, at least in his 'prime'. Clearly he knew how to set up a 10-day Halloween killer party.

[DarKnight]

AD-B can/would you give us a little insight on how you would portray the Alpha Legion and the Emperor's Children? I'd just assume you'd play down the Slaneshi depravity, which I admit can be a bit much at times. 

[b1soul]

Yeah... Combat isn't Dorns thing.

 

Evidence? I'll be waiting

[RapatoR]

And there is no possibility of Night Lords winning over Wolves? They just run or loose? I doubt that.

 

And I would say big YES to another angle on Alpha Legion and Emperor's Children. I would love it.

[DuskRaider]

 

Yeah... Combat isn't Dorns thing.

 

Evidence? I'll be waiting

For one, look at his stats.

[marshal seanisi]

I think that he is referring to the fact that we haven't seen anything written with Dorn actually fighting.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Yeah... Combat isn't Dorns thing.

 

Evidence? I'll be waiting

 

 

 

 

Yeah... Combat isn't Dorns thing.

 

Evidence? I'll be waiting

For one, look at his stats.

 

You shan't wait long. 

[Greyall]

I don't think there's much doubt that if the NLs chose to stay and fight the Wolves head-on, they'd lose. Really, they lack the teamwork and spirit that the Wolves have, plus have less experience with direct combat.

 

If the Wolves have a bad time during combat, they'll bare teeth and keep advancing.

 

If the Night Lords have a bad time, chances are some of them will break rank and improvise (I won't assume outright running away...)

[Wade Garrett]

Angron isn't inept. Until the Siege of Terra, he wins every battle he undertakes, in the terms he considers important.

*Looks at the dry bones littering De'Shelika Ridge*

 

Not quite every battle...

[Grimtooth]

 

 

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

ADB, I question your first scenario just with what material has been provided in Battle of the Fang and later on it Blood of Asaheim.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a 3-minute pithy quote on a forum is the definitive answer on something so complex and nuanced as this - it's not even what I'd write if I was the one doing it - but it was notable enough to include.

 

That said, the Space Wolves of 30K aren't the ones of 40K, even if their mindsets have familiar callbacks to one another, so those aren't perfect sources. The subject's infinitely more complex than "No, they'd just keep going no matter what" because not all of them would. Legions are incredibly varied and nuanced things, with a wealth of personalities. The Space Wolves will have many warriors that would do just that, out of a desire for personal glory, myopic barbarian zeal, or a sense of unbreakable duty - such as the 13th Great Company in the Eye of Terror. 

 

But then there'll be the Wolves whose Viking hearts don't eternally harden at the sight of the trillions being massacred and left for the crows - they might decide that their duty as Mankind's warrior elite lies elsewhere rather than in a fruitless hunt. Others, glory-starved, will find that their warrior souls call them to other (even more terrible) wars, while still others believe that chasing a wounded rat is beneath them, when their overall duty is to the people of the Imperium, and there are other ways of coordinating a real, lasting shield around the helpless mortals rather than all of the hopeless chasing that's getting trillions slain all for some madman's pathetic philosophy.

 

That's the beautiful thing about the Legions - their insane breadth of compelxity, and not just Red vs. Blue on a game board.

 

Heck, for all of the propaganda in Prospero Burns, there will still be disloyal Space Wolves in the Heresy. Traitors in Loyalist Legions aren't something "everyone except the Space Wolves" has to suffer. The only souls utterly, wholly incapable of disloyalty in this entire Bangarang are the Legiones Custodes. I have absolutely zero passion for the idea of Traitor Space Wolves, and no desire to write about it, but it illustrates the point: It's very difficult to ever say "Legion #Whatever would definitely do this" in any circumstance. Maybe they would for a while. Maybe half of them would keep doing it, and the other half would do something else afterwards. And so on.

 

Above all, Leman Russ isn't (in my opinion) a hidebound idiot. I've posted about it elsewhere:

 

> 

This is 100% personal bias, I admit that upfront, but that's the Russ I see, yeah. I try not to present him purely like that - everything is implication and suggestion, so I don't collide with other interpretations, but that's the Russ I like best. And the source is likely pretty obvious, in that I freaking love all of Howard's perceptions on barbarism versus civilisation, with the merits and flaws of both.

 

There's also that great Stephen King quote, when good ol' local boy Stu Redman says in The Stand, when he's being talked down to by the government pen-pusher: "Country don't mean dumb." I love that. Same thing here; a tribal culture doesn't mean primitive thought. It means grounded, down-to-earth thinking, at every level of intelligence, and a lack of pretension. It means honesty. Not universally, but generally. It's why Loki's such an incredible aberration that forever confounds the other gods. He's so... dishonest.

 

I read a lot of Howard, and I love the Conan stories. They're far, far from the shallow drek a lot of people take them for (see: Arnie's movies, and the new movie), and what barbarism comes down to above all else is honesty. The Russ I love most speaks his mind, does what he thinks is right, and is honest unto death. His Wolves are the same.

 

"What do I know of cultured ways; the gilt, the craft, and the lie?

I who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile; they fail when the broadswords sing,

Rush in and die, dogs. I was a man before I was a king."

 

-- The Phoenix on the Sword.

 

...and I hold to the idea that Leman Russ would put aside personal glory, and even direct orders, to do the right thing. Much like the Wolves of 40K. Now, the "right thing" could be an eternal chase, a la the 13th Company, or one of the legends of his own "disappearance". Or it could be instantly beating the Night Lords around the head with sexy void-pack tactics, much like the Night Lords often get their void tactics alluded to as Nostraman sharks in my work. It could also be swallowing his warrior pride and guarding every world he can, anticipating Night Lord raids and sacrificing his men to make sure each world holds out long enough to wait for reinforcements. Abandoning the glory of the Hunt, for the necessity of a new, graver Duty.

 

And so on.

 

But for what it's worth, I absolutely agree with you. Most Space Wolves would go for the eternal chase, for better or worse. Just not all, and in the face of honest futility (which, note, I'm still not saying would definitely happen), Leman of the Russ is a very smart guy. So are his sons.

 

 

 

 

 

NL fans should be pretty pleased with ADB's work. It's has many "pro-NL" elements. It's just not all pro-NL. 

 

Heh. It's not a worry, b1soul. The lynching comment earlier was a joke.  

 

Well we do see a change in mentality in Battle of the Fang with regard to the mentality that led to the Aett almost being destroyed.  The new wolf lord says something along the lines of, "Never again will we be drawn into a battle not of our choosing" in reference to the chapter having been duped by Magnus in so many years of chasing him ultimately leading to Gangava. 

 

I wonder if the follow-up to Blood of Asaheim will touch at all on the weariness exhibited by both the Wolves in the story and Ragnar.  As that appears to be current 40k, it shows a chapter really running themselves ragged that I have not seen talked about in other chapters.  Of course some chapters are dealing with their own stuff like the Black Rage in BA, but are any other chapters being portrayed as what appears to be the Wolves "missioning" themselves to extinction?

[A D-B]

 

 

 

"It's been seven years, Russ. They flee ahead of us, reaving world after world bare of life. I come from the warchiefs, the jarls, and the thegns, with their words. The Vlka Fenryka grow weary - not of the hunt, but of the injustice. The Einherjar are weary of being judged by the staring eyes of the flayed dead, on worlds we were too late to save. We are warriors and hunters all, born to the fire and the ice of the Hearthworld. But we cannot keep chasing shadows. The patterns of blood-mad prey cannot be predicted."

 

 

-- and/or --

 

 

"I, Leman of the Russ, have slain the Night's Son. The last carrion crows claiming to be born of his blood will scatter like vermin in daylight. Take Sevatar and the other prisoners to the high rocks of this world; there you will grant them the death of Blood Eagles beneath the rising sun. Before we sail the skies once more, break every Eighth Legion blade in twain and scatter them among the burial mounds, so those that find this mountain graveyard in generations to come will never doubt the Allfather's justice. For as long as you draw breath, my sons, you have earned the right to darken your faces with warpaint coloured by Nostraman blood."

ADB, I question your first scenario just with what material has been provided in Battle of the Fang and later on it Blood of Asaheim.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a 3-minute pithy quote on a forum is the definitive answer on something so complex and nuanced as this - it's not even what I'd write if I was the one doing it - but it was notable enough to include.

 

That said, the Space Wolves of 30K aren't the ones of 40K, even if their mindsets have familiar callbacks to one another, so those aren't perfect sources. The subject's infinitely more complex than "No, they'd just keep going no matter what" because not all of them would. Legions are incredibly varied and nuanced things, with a wealth of personalities. The Space Wolves will have many warriors that would do just that, out of a desire for personal glory, myopic barbarian zeal, or a sense of unbreakable duty - such as the 13th Great Company in the Eye of Terror. 

 

But then there'll be the Wolves whose Viking hearts don't eternally harden at the sight of the trillions being massacred and left for the crows - they might decide that their duty as Mankind's warrior elite lies elsewhere rather than in a fruitless hunt. Others, glory-starved, will find that their warrior souls call them to other (even more terrible) wars, while still others believe that chasing a wounded rat is beneath them, when their overall duty is to the people of the Imperium, and there are other ways of coordinating a real, lasting shield around the helpless mortals rather than all of the hopeless chasing that's getting trillions slain all for some madman's pathetic philosophy.

 

That's the beautiful thing about the Legions - their insane breadth of compelxity, and not just Red vs. Blue on a game board.

 

Heck, for all of the propaganda in Prospero Burns, there will still be disloyal Space Wolves in the Heresy. Traitors in Loyalist Legions aren't something "everyone except the Space Wolves" has to suffer. The only souls utterly, wholly incapable of disloyalty in this entire Bangarang are the Legiones Custodes. I have absolutely zero passion for the idea of Traitor Space Wolves, and no desire to write about it, but it illustrates the point: It's very difficult to ever say "Legion #Whatever would definitely do this" in any circumstance. Maybe they would for a while. Maybe half of them would keep doing it, and the other half would do something else afterwards. And so on.

 

Above all, Leman Russ isn't (in my opinion) a hidebound idiot. I've posted about it elsewhere:

 

>> 

This is 100% personal bias, I admit that upfront, but that's the Russ I see, yeah. I try not to present him purely like that - everything is implication and suggestion, so I don't collide with other interpretations, but that's the Russ I like best. And the source is likely pretty obvious, in that I freaking love all of Howard's perceptions on barbarism versus civilisation, with the merits and flaws of both.

 

There's also that great Stephen King quote, when good ol' local boy Stu Redman says in The Stand, when he's being talked down to by the government pen-pusher: "Country don't mean dumb." I love that. Same thing here; a tribal culture doesn't mean primitive thought. It means grounded, down-to-earth thinking, at every level of intelligence, and a lack of pretension. It means honesty. Not universally, but generally. It's why Loki's such an incredible aberration that forever confounds the other gods. He's so... dishonest.

 

I read a lot of Howard, and I love the Conan stories. They're far, far from the shallow drek a lot of people take them for (see: Arnie's movies, and the new movie), and what barbarism comes down to above all else is honesty. The Russ I love most speaks his mind, does what he thinks is right, and is honest unto death. His Wolves are the same.

 

"What do I know of cultured ways; the gilt, the craft, and the lie?

I who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile; they fail when the broadswords sing,

Rush in and die, dogs. I was a man before I was a king."

 

-- The Phoenix on the Sword.

lockquote>

 

...and I hold to the idea that Leman Russ would put aside personal glory, and even direct orders, to do the right thing. Much like the Wolves of 40K. Now, the "right thing" could be an eternal chase, a la the 13th Company, or one of the legends of his own "disappearance". Or it could be instantly beating the Night Lords around the head with sexy void-pack tactics, much like the Night Lords often get their void tactics alluded to as Nostraman sharks in my work. It could also be swallowing his warrior pride and guarding every world he can, anticipating Night Lord raids and sacrificing his men to make sure each world holds out long enough to wait for reinforcements. Abandoning the glory of the Hunt, for the necessity of a new, graver Duty.

 

And so on.

 

But for what it's worth, I absolutely agree with you. Most Space Wolves would go for the eternal chase, for better or worse. Just not all, and in the face of honest futility (which, note, I'm still not saying would definitely happen), Leman of the Russ is a very smart guy. So are his sons.

 

 

 

 

> 

NL fans should be pretty pleased with ADB's work. It's has many "pro-NL" elements. It's just not all pro-NL. 

 

Heh. It's not a worry, b1soul. The lynching comment earlier was a joke.  

Well we do see a change in mentality in Battle of the Fang with regard to the mentality that led to the Aett almost being destroyed.  The new wolf lord says something along the lines of, "Never again will we be drawn into a battle not of our choosing" in reference to the chapter having been duped by Magnus in so many years of chasing him ultimately leading to Gangava. 

 

I wonder if the follow-up to Blood of Asaheim will touch at all on the weariness exhibited by both the Wolves in the story and Ragnar.  As that appears to be current 40k, it shows a chapter really running themselves ragged that I have not seen talked about in other chapters.  Of course some chapters are dealing with their own stuff like the Black Rage in BA, but are any other chapters being portrayed as what appears to be the Wolves "missioning" themselves to extinction?

 

 

Several, yeah. It's a vibe that the Crimson Fists have had for a while, and the Flesh Tearers got an edge of it in their newest incarnation. Especially the Fists, though. They could (should?) hold back and regroup after the beating they took, but they refuse to stay out of the fight, and are committed to keep fighting, even if it "missions them to extinction". (Great phrase, by the way.)

 

Really great theme for some Chapters. 

[Stonerhino]

In a Prospero style engagement the NLs would lose.  Not because the Wolves are great but because the Wolves would be given whatever support they needed to get the job done.  Posibably even another allied Legion if Lorgar was shown the truth in Aurelian.

 

Have you ever considered that in a Thramus style engagement.  That Curze might just feed his Legion to the Wolves???  Pitched battle after pitched battle untill one Legion is dead.  Justicar vs Executioner till the end.