What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[Noctus Cornix]

Honestly, and this is coming from someone who doesn't particularly care for Space Wolves and was a former Night Lord player, I can honestly say that I could see the Wolves rending the VIII apart in such a war. Without a doubt, were it to come to Legion versus Legion in a single area like Prospero, they would rip the Night Lords apart. Space Marines they may be, but Night Lords lack the fundamental discipline and skill to defend much of anything and would fall rank as quickly as they can to run for their lives like they did at Tsugalsa. Cowardice runs in their blood, they're not going to stick around for a fight they know they can't win. That an the Space Wolves were backed by assistance from Terra, though it is likely that they would bring something other than Sisters of Silence to help deal with the sons of Curze.

 

If it came to a war more like the Thramas Crusade, I have a feeling it would still fall into the favor of the Wolves. Certainly the Night Lords would lay them with ambush after ambush, but the Wolves are keener of senses than any other marine and experts at quick thinking and counter attacks to throw the battle in their favor. Many ambushes would fall into fruitless efforts and Curze may or may not be more than happy to let his bastard children die at the hands of the wolves.

 

I think its also important to keep in mind what the objective is. As far as I'm aware, the mission of the Dark Angels in the Thramas Crusade was to regain territory and sooner or later push through to Terra, not to necessarily defeat the Night Lords. For Russ though, he would move directly for the throat and neutralize Curze as quickly as possible. This would deteriorate the chain of command far faster than it already did and the Night Lords would splinter off like they did at Tsugalsa.

[Wade Garrett]

Going directly for the throat and neutralizing Curze and the Night Lords is a lot easier vowed than done.

 

The Lion didn't manage it when using the Tuchula engine to jump his fleet with perfect coordination, or when he had the Haunter trapped in the bowels of his ship. The entire force of the Progenitor Chapters couldn't end a Legion that was already well on its way to scattered warbandom.

 

The VIII and their Primarch are many things, few of them good, but one of those is "harder to kill than cockroaches on steroids".

 

And I 'hae my doots' that the Wolves extra sensitive snouts will be capable of detecting, for instance, that the orbital habitat full of screaming, half flayed children that they're racing in to save has been wired to explode.

[Noctus Cornix]

Mmmm.... I'd have to disagree with you there. We've already been shown that the Lion came into meeting Curze atleast twice during the Crusade, one of which saw the Night Lord's Primarch with a sword in his spine and the other ended in him being nearly killed. The Wolves are not bound by knightly 1 on 1 duels and I'm certain that with ease, they could do the same thing to Curze that they did with Angron, only this time they don't have to stay their fingers from the trigger.

 

Its not simply a matter that they can smell better. Perception is a valuable thing, one the Wolves pride themselves on. They may not be the brightest cabbage in the patch but what they lack in intelligence they make up for in wisdom, common sense, and prudence. They are more likely to be able to figure something out is a trap before one of the more scholarly brothers will, but that's just my take on them.

[Daddywarcrimes]

That's the thing.  The Great Crusade VIth legion wouldn't race to save an orbital habitat full of screaming, half-flayed children when they were in the middle of hunting the Night Lords.  They'd recognize it for the trap it was, disregard it, and focus on the target at hand.  Look at the opening of the Razing of Prospero.  Russ's fleet pulverizes pretty much everything not under Tizca's kine shield from high anchor after emerging from the warp firing a half-blind shotgun volley of torpedoes into the vague direction of Prospero.  

 

On the other hand, the 40k Wolves would disregard the orders of the High Lords to go save the children because they thought it was the right thing to do, and get incinerated.

[Hyaenidae]

The entire force of the Progenitor Chapters couldn't end a Legion that was already well on its way to scattered warbandom.

 

Unfair. The entire VIII Legion wasn't even there to be ended. The handful members of the Legion who survived remembered that night for the rest of their miserable lives.

 

 

The VIII and their Primarch are many things, few of them good, but one of those is "harder to kill than cockroaches on steroids".

 

Knowing when you are going to die, and by who, gives one incredible confidence.

 

 

And I 'hae my doots' that the Wolves extra sensitive snouts will be capable of detecting, for instance, that the orbital habitat full of screaming, half flayed children that they're racing in to save has been wired to explode.

 

Explosives have a distinct scent, and it can be smelled over some terrible smells by a normal human. Just take my word for it.

[Marshal Rohr]

They smell like victory. 

[Wade Garrett]

It's true, a lot of this comes down to subjective opinion, and it's also true the Crusade era Wolves hearts are a lot colder than those of their 40k descendants.

 

But by the same token, the only reason Jonson had his first meeting with Curze was because the Haunter summoned him to a parley.

 

And Corswain...would one of the VI really abandon a member of his pack to face Sheng and Sevatar alone, racing to the aid of his Alpha? Or would he trust in the strength of the Wolf King and stand with his shield brother against the murderers's knifes?

 

And while the Night Lords are most definitely not the Ultramarines or Iron Warriors, they didn't utterly forsake Legion discipline like the World Eaters.

 

Would the XII have sacrificed multiple companies to save their father if Guilliman had put his boot on Angron's throat at the battle of Nuceria?

[A D-B]

It's true, a lot of this comes down to subjective opinion,

 

Bearing this in mind is key to these discussions, I think. "The Wolves would definitely 100% do X" is an uncomfortable position to take. "They might do X, or Y, or Z" makes a lot more sense. There's evidence, precedent, and enough leeway in the lore to make a lot of cases, and that's one of the setting's greatest strengths.

[b1soul]

Mmmm.... I'd have to disagree with you there. We've already been shown that the Lion came into meeting Curze atleast twice during the Crusade, one of which saw the Night Lord's Primarch with a sword in his spine and the other ended in him being nearly killed. The Wolves are not bound by knightly 1 on 1 duels and I'm certain that with ease, they could do the same thing to Curze that they did with Angron, only this time they don't have to stay their fingers from the trigger.

 

I don't think you can predict the outcome of a SW vs. NL engagement based on a SW vs. WE engagement. Way different MOs (with respect to legions and primarchs)  

 

Also, the sword in the spine incident should be clarified. A marine leaped in to help the Lion. That fight was a pretty good showing for Curze.

[Phoebus]

 

A well-organized force acting according to a proven strategic tome and prepared for what they'd find managed to win against the remnants of a Legion composed of a lot of unbalanced minds, more killer than soldiers, and whose MO relied heavily on surprise and unbalancing enemies.

 

Does go under 'plot armour' in my book.

 

Edit: Don't outright assume Russ would go in, guns blazing. He was prepared to fight against Angron and Magnus, not willing to.

 

It was new at that point, and this book had the power to almost cause another Civil War within years of the last one. Night Lords are one of the more capable legions shown at this point, considering they gave the Dark Angel's a hell of a time for 2 years. I'll never be convinced that this grand tome comprising thousands of years of martial theory came to the conclusion a thousand dudes in weak ships with no air support is the optimal fighting force. 

 

Edit: I say this not to be combative, I promise. I have more faith in Guilliman. However, I do not have faith in an idea put forward over 20 years ago that requires so much hand waving for it to work. 

 

The Night Lords are (were?) capable precisely because they are (were?) a Space Marine Legion.  Not because of what they did during the Thramas Crusade.

 

Like any other Legion, the Night Lords have their strengths and their weaknesses.  They clearly don't lack imagination, and their leadership has demonstrated an ability to think outside the box to a degree that it can surprise and frustrate the enemy.  On the other hand, they lack solidarity and discipline.  Little that we've seen about the Night Lords thus far shouts, "Let's all pitch in, and we'll turn the tide of this battle!"

 

Horus sent the Lion to the Eastern Fringes so he'd be out of the way during the Heresy.  Curze's job was to keep his loyal brother occupied.  The Lion, in turn, had two priorities.  The first was to decisively defeat the Night Lords.  The other was to protect the worlds of Thramas from Curze.

 

What this amounts to, then, is a game of "whack-a-mole" on a ludicrous scale.  So long as the number of potential hiding spots (e.g., "wilderness space") and strategic targets exceeded the number of task forces the Lion could put together, the First Legion could not feasibly defeat the Night Lords.  The other key thing to remember is that the Lion could only divide his forces so much in an effort to find Curze or protect the worlds of Thramas.  If his forces were spread to thin, they would be ineffective at either attacking or defending.  By contrast, Curze could keep his forces together or divide them, as needed.  If a small raiding force of his came into a system and found it defended by the Dark Angels, it could (theoretically) flee.  His choice of available targets or places to retreat to would always exceed the number of task forces the Lion could set up.

 

That's the gist of "Savage Weapons".  It's not so much a display of something that makes a Legion good or capable, as much as a reminder that not even a Legion is capable of being everywhere at once.  Well, not until their primarch finds a sentient Warp engine... and then they get anywhere (?) very quickly and very accurately.

 

Please don't take this as a "The Dark Angels are better than the Night Lords!" argument.  I'm not here to tell you that the Dark Angels are the best Space Marine Legion.  Other than the pre-Heresy Sons of Horus (and that's still a "maybe"), I don't think there is a demonstrably "best" pre-Heresy legion.  Nor do I believe that all Space Marine Legions are all equal.  Each Legion is different.  Each has its strengths and its weaknesses.  The difference in quality is there, but it comes down to the details.

 

The Death Guard, for instance, was almost certainly numerically inferior to the Dark Angels at the time of the Heresy.  Betrayal tells us that they had less around 95,000 Space Marines and 70 capital vessels before Isstvan III.  Gav Thorpe has offered that the Dark Angels were at the upper end of the "average" size, with about 100,000-120,000 Space Marines.  One might assume the Dark Angels had more capital ships than the Death Guard, as well. So while the Death Guard may very well have been superior to the Dark Angels when it came to foot-slogging and intractable assaults of infantry waves, one might plausibly offer that this isn't very important at all.  Maybe the Lion is better than Mortarion at naval warfare and has more ships.  Maybe the Dark Angels have more archaeo-tech (or super-heavy tanks, or whatever) and suicidally fearless infantry formations don't really concern them.

 

There may be exceptions to that rule.  The World Eaters, for instance, have steadily degraded under the Butcher's Nails and Angron's deteriorating leadership.  Increasingly, they are becoming a one-trick pony and rely more and more on shock and overwhelming force.  We know that, by the time of the Siege of Terra, they are barely controllable (if that).  We know that, not too long after the end of the Heresy, they will cease to exist as a Legion precisely because of their lack of control and discipline.  It's difficult to argue that they would fare well against a Legion of equal size waging war properly and intelligently, on a level playing field.  That's not to say that they wouldn't bloody said enemy, of course!

[DuskRaider]

I'm not trying to play straw man here or anything, but from what I remember XIVth Legion had one of the largest fleets in all of the Legions Astartes. Also, there were 95,000 present at Isstvan III, I don't believe that takes the Legion's full strength into account. From what I remember, they just finished a particularly taxing campaign with the XVIth Legion just prior to the Isstvan incident. However, your main idea still stands true. If a Legion were to battle another without assistance (or cheating like said sentient Warp Engine), it would most likely end with mutual destruction.

[Conn Eremon]

If I recall correctly, it wasn't that they had one of the biggest fleet, it was that they had an inordinate amount of capital class vessels, a higher ratio than others.

[DuskRaider]

You may be right on that. I don't have my books with me right now, so it's all off the top of my head.

[Conn Eremon]

Just looked it up; it states they were not as large as those Legions noted for having large fleets, like the I, VII and the XVI, but they had a high proportion of heavy capital class vessels, many remarkably large and relics from the DAoT.

[DuskRaider]

There we go, I knew there was something unique about their fleet.

[Noctus Cornix]

 

Mmmm.... I'd have to disagree with you there. We've already been shown that the Lion came into meeting Curze atleast twice during the Crusade, one of which saw the Night Lord's Primarch with a sword in his spine and the other ended in him being nearly killed. The Wolves are not bound by knightly 1 on 1 duels and I'm certain that with ease, they could do the same thing to Curze that they did with Angron, only this time they don't have to stay their fingers from the trigger.

 

I don't think you can predict the outcome of a SW vs. NL engagement based on a SW vs. WE engagement. Way different MOs (with respect to legions and primarchs)  

 

Also, the sword in the spine incident should be clarified. A marine leaped in to help the Lion. That fight was a pretty good showing for Curze.

 

I never said I was predicting any sort of outcome, merely making speculation of what I believe would be the case. Their MOs may be different but the mentality between the VIII and the XII is strikingly similar in many respects. I'm not criticizing the VIII as a fighting force by any stretch of the means, simply trying to point to what current fluff would suggest in the given situation.

 

Yes, Curze was technically winning that fight until the Champion came in to save the day, but also remember that it was because Curze pulled a dirty trick and tried to strangle his brother. Johnson is an Imperious knight of Valor and honor who will not likely stoop low enough to use underhanded tricks. Russ would.

[Kol Saresk]

The Lion was the one who "pulled a dirty trick". The strangling was Curze overcoming the blindside.

[DuskRaider]

For as much as the Lion is portrayed as the honorable knight, he definitely pulled a lot of underhanded actions. Then again, you do whatever it takes to win, I suppose.

[Wade Garrett]

"Hrrk aaahhhkk grrrrk!"

 

-Lion El'Johnson, attempting to vocalize "I say, old bean! Cease throttling me like some ill mannered hooligan, and let us settle our differences by slicing and stabbing at one another with sharp bits of metal, like gentlemen!" during the finale of Savage Weapons

[Legatus]

Only 70 capital ships, huh? That would be enough to transport 21,000 Marines. So unless they then also had a fleet of over 700 strike vessels, that would explain why the Dark Angels left a significant portion of their Legion back on Caliban.

 

Either that, or the increase in ship numbers did not quite catch up with the increase in Legion sizes.

[Kol Saresk]

Or they have ships like the Dominus-Class(from Betrayer) battle-barge that is capable of transporting 3,000 troops. We know from the Word Bearers series that the Infernus-class battle-barge and whatever-class strike cruiser, the Infidus Diabolus, were able to transport around 2,000 troops each.

 

30K Astartes tech is not as restricted, nor as limited as 40K tech. So we cannot use the Codex-adherent vessels as standards for what the Legions could or could not do. Such as transporting a thousand troops on one ship.

[Legatus]

I wonder why the Space Marines suddenly lost the ability to create Strike Cruisers that could transport more than a single company. Or maybe that is just a symptom of the greatly increased 30K force sizes not yet being fully reconcilable with the 40K force sizes.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I think it's just another symptom of all formation sizes in the Codex Astartes being too small for what they're intended.

 

A 40k strike cruiser is comparable in displacement to a Dauntless Light Cruiser as far as I'm aware, meaning it's at least a few kilometres long and has  10s of thousands of crew (admittedly less that a Navy vessel thanks to the heavier use of automation and servitors on Marine ships), not to mention 2 giant hanger decks. To say that a ship of that size can only carry and deploy 100 or so marines just sound stupid to me.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

There was a bit where Russ tried to bring Alpherius to combat (I think in Scars) and was furious because Alpharius wouldn't face him.

I think in a fight between Russ and Curze, Curse would play on this and in the end Russ would lose as he'd lose his temper lashing out to try and end his opponent and Curze would win by the principle of 'death by a thousand paper cuts!'

[Kol Saresk]

I think it's just another symptom of all formation sizes in the Codex Astartes being too small for what they're intended.

 

A 40k strike cruiser is comparable in displacement to a Dauntless Light Cruiser as far as I'm aware, meaning it's at least a few kilometres long and has 10s of thousands of crew (admittedly less that a Navy vessel thanks to the heavier use of automation and servitors on Marine ships), not to mention 2 giant hanger decks. To say that a ship of that size can only carry and deploy 100 or so marines just sound stupid to me.

Exactly. The Codex Astartes was a downsize in every shape and form, up to and including what they were allowed to have. That meant smaller ships. What they use for a strike cruiser is pitiful compare to what the Legion's used.