What if Russ had been sent to sanction Curze?

[Andiana]

Personally I think it's unwise to underestimate the Night Lords and their Primarch. Which in my opinion, is exactly what Russ would do.

 

He may win the war, but the toll paid by the Wolves would be costly indeed.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I think it's just another symptom of all formation sizes in the Codex Astartes being too small for what they're intended.

 

A 40k strike cruiser is comparable in displacement to a Dauntless Light Cruiser as far as I'm aware, meaning it's at least a few kilometres long and has 10s of thousands of crew (admittedly less that a Navy vessel thanks to the heavier use of automation and servitors on Marine ships), not to mention 2 giant hanger decks. To say that a ship of that size can only carry and deploy 100 or so marines just sound stupid to me.

Exactly. The Codex Astartes was a downsize in every shape and form, up to and including what they were allowed to have. That meant smaller ships. What they use for a strike cruiser is pitiful compare to what the Legion's used.

And even then, what they use as a strike cruiser in 40k clearly could accommodate way more than a company, or are we supposed to assume each of those giant launch bays can only process 2 Thunderhawks at a time?

[Severoth]

This would be an interesting concept, but i truly believe that curze and the night lords would ultimately win this if they were sent to sanction them. The wolves would be frustrated to no end with the hit and run style of the night lords. They wouldn't meet them in open battle and wouldn't care what planets the wolves raised. After reading unremembered empire, i'm not so sure that Russ would survive the conflict either.

 

 

but i'm biased, i've been a night lord fan since 3rd ed and reading Lord of The Night, only enhanced by the latest books. 

[Conn Eremon]

I wonder why the Space Marines suddenly lost the ability to create Strike Cruisers that could transport more than a single company. Or maybe that is just a symptom of the greatly increased 30K force sizes not yet being fully reconcilable with the 40K force sizes.

Or the fact that 40k force sizes were deluberately intended to be lesser than 30k force sizes, by Guilliman's intentions as codified in the Codex. Specifically the part where the Imperial Navy got the best ships and the Space Marines had what they got to keep retrofitted.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

I think it's just another symptom of all formation sizes in the Codex Astartes being too small for what they're intended.

 

A 40k strike cruiser is comparable in displacement to a Dauntless Light Cruiser as far as I'm aware, meaning it's at least a few kilometres long and has 10s of thousands of crew (admittedly less that a Navy vessel thanks to the heavier use of automation and servitors on Marine ships), not to mention 2 giant hanger decks. To say that a ship of that size can only carry and deploy 100 or so marines just sound stupid to me.

Exactly. The Codex Astartes was a downsize in every shape and form, up to and including what they were allowed to have. That meant smaller ships. What they use for a strike cruiser is pitiful compare to what the Legion's used.

And even then, what they use as a strike cruiser in 40k clearly could accommodate way more than a company, or are we supposed to assume each of those giant launch bays can only process 2 Thunderhawks at a time?

They can probably do more. They just can't.

[Phoebus]

I wonder why the Space Marines suddenly lost the ability to create Strike Cruisers that could transport more than a single company. Or maybe that is just a symptom of the greatly increased 30K force sizes not yet being fully reconcilable with the 40K force sizes.

 

I think it's just another symptom of all formation sizes in the Codex Astartes being too small for what they're intended.

 

A 40k strike cruiser is comparable in displacement to a Dauntless Light Cruiser as far as I'm aware, meaning it's at least a few kilometres long and has  10s of thousands of crew (admittedly less that a Navy vessel thanks to the heavier use of automation and servitors on Marine ships), not to mention 2 giant hanger decks. To say that a ship of that size can only carry and deploy 100 or so marines just sound stupid to me.

 

 

 

I think it's just another symptom of all formation sizes in the Codex Astartes being too small for what they're intended.

 

A 40k strike cruiser is comparable in displacement to a Dauntless Light Cruiser as far as I'm aware, meaning it's at least a few kilometres long and has 10s of thousands of crew (admittedly less that a Navy vessel thanks to the heavier use of automation and servitors on Marine ships), not to mention 2 giant hanger decks. To say that a ship of that size can only carry and deploy 100 or so marines just sound stupid to me.

Exactly. The Codex Astartes was a downsize in every shape and form, up to and including what they were allowed to have. That meant smaller ships. What they use for a strike cruiser is pitiful compare to what the Legion's used.

And even then, what they use as a strike cruiser in 40k clearly could accommodate way more than a company, or are we supposed to assume each of those giant launch bays can only process 2 Thunderhawks at a time?

 

My guess is that it comes down to the restrictions of the Codex Astartes.  I don't think strike cruisers in M41 are necessarily smaller than their counterparts from M31.  Rather, I think it's a matter of them being retrofitted to serve different roles.  The Great Crusade relied on Expedition Fleets.  

A Great Crusade strike cruiser would have relied on auxiliary vessels and/or on materiel provided by accompanying elements of the Adeptus Mechanicus.  A M41 strike cruiser can probably expect support as needed from the Imperium's infrastructure, but its mission profile probably requires for it to operate autonomously (or with limited escort support) for extended periods of time.

 

My guess is that, post-Codex, a lot of the space aboard Space Marine ships was used to store more war materiel.  This would enable a Battle Company to operate autonomously for a longer period of time.  Could an M41 strike cruiser carry more Space Marines?  Sure.  I mean, technically, a kilometers-long starship could carry an entire Chapter's Space Marines.  I'm kind of joking when I say this, but they could just stand there, activate their Sus-an Membranes, and chill out until they got to their destination.  On the other hand, adding more Space Marines on a strike cruiser means the on-board materiel (bolt rounds, spare weapons, armor parts, etc.) will be expended faster.  Similarly, I imagine a Codex strike cruiser's Apothecarion is probably only configured for a Battle Company's worth of patients, which means treatment of additional casualties would be restricted.

 

Codex restrictions on a Chapter's size make Space Marine transport capacity a moot point, though.  The exception to this would be if a Chapter's fleet were, for some reason, reduced to just a couple of vessels.  At that point, I imagine the Imperium would step in and ensure they remained combat-viable.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually Extermination says that the Astartes vessels were mainline Naval vessels that ha been further enhanced to support orbital assaults in order to land troops as fast as possible. That's why just the Alpha and the Beta were able to so easily tear apart the Expedition Fleet in Legion. That's their purpose. To break fleets apart.

[Daddywarcrimes]

I wonder why the Space Marines suddenly lost the ability to create Strike Cruisers that could transport more than a single company. Or maybe that is just a symptom of the greatly increased 30K force sizes not yet being fully reconcilable with the 40K force sizes.

 

They were deliberately stripped of their ability to maintain fleets large enough to move efficiently about the galaxy for the same reason they lost their nova cannons, and were gutted down to formations of dubious strategic value.  The Imperium was more afraid of a second Astartes rebellion than it was of anything that the Astartes had left alive in the galaxy to threaten it.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I wonder why the Space Marines suddenly lost the ability to create Strike Cruisers that could transport more than a single company. Or maybe that is just a symptom of the greatly increased 30K force sizes not yet being fully reconcilable with the 40K force sizes.

 

They were deliberately stripped of their ability to maintain fleets large enough to move efficiently about the galaxy for the same reason they lost their nova cannons, and were gutted down to formations of dubious strategic value.  The Imperium was more afraid of a second Astartes rebellion than it was of anything that the Astartes had left alive in the galaxy to threaten it.

 

 

Shhhhh! That's the almighty Codex Astartes you're talking about!

[Wade Garrett]

Saying a Codex compliant Chapter is "of dubious strategic value" compared to the Legions is like saying the NYPD SWAT division is useless compared to the 22nd Armored Cavalry.

 

They're different tools to do different jobs, and trying to use one in the other's role will only end in pain and tears.

 

The Legions didn't need to be a rapid reaction force that zips from planet to planet putting out one fire after another all over the Imperium, and the Chapters aren't supposed to be a great big hammer smashing down an entire galaxy that resists the unification under the Emperor.

[Daddywarcrimes]

I won't dispute that the companies are of extreme tactical value, easily capable of turning the tide in a xenos incursion that has the Astra Militarum (really?) bogged down.  However, they now lack the numbers or the void assets to accomplish anything other than direct action strikes in support of Imperial Guard or PDF forces.  That's why I say they're of dubious strategic value.

[b1soul]

After reading unremembered empire, i'm not so sure that Russ would survive the conflict either.

 

Each primarch is capable beating any other primarch...but there's something called odds. As long as people grasp this concept, primarch vs. primarch discussions usually don't devolve into absurdity.  

 

With regard to Curze vs. Russ, if really came to a duel a la Curze vs. the Lion, yeah sure...Curze might emerge the victor. That's definitely a possibility.

 

I wouldn't favour Curze over Russ though. Curze brawls when he's technically outclassed. Unless your name is Angron, you don't want to brawl Russ. Curze relies on stealth. Of all the primarchs, Russ has arguably the best sensory detection. He's like the primarch Wolverine in that regard.

 

How do I see Curze beating Russ? The same way I see the NL possibly beating the SW. Refusing to engage directly. Frustration and evasion, hit-and-run, taunting...until the enemy eventually makes a mistake. In Unremembered Empire, Curze sets up that trap for Guilliman and the Lion. He could do something similar to Russ...although someone has pointed out that Russ could possibly sniff out the explosives. That's not guaranteed though, and I'm sure Curze's primarch mind could come up with other types of traps less likely to be detected.

 

It's an interesting battle as are more primarch vs. primarch match-ups. In a straight head-to-head collision, I don't see many primarchs beating Russ. Horus, Sanguinius, and Angron. I would probably only favour those three over Russ in a direct engagement. Horus because he's supposed to be the best. Sanguinius because he's Sanguinius, the Archangel Michael to Horus' fallen Lucifer. Angron because 1 on 1 gladiatorial combat is his whole shtick (and because of Night of the Wolf) 

[Augustus]

I wonder what Russ isn't good at besides driving points home.

[Grimtooth]

I wonder what Russ isn't good at besides driving points home.

I have said this before with regard to him and the legion; they will drive themselves to extinction in pursuit of what the are ordered to do.  The Wolves sent to monitor the loyalty of primarchs by the Sigilite go so willingly despite the fact that they will all die carrying out said orders.  The same is shown in Battle of the Fang and later on in Blood of Asaheim.  Magnus points out in Battle of the Fang how unique they are in said loyalty.  It is a type of fatalism, associated with their belief in wyrd and is what draws a lot of fans to their side.  Loyalty to an extreme fault.

[svane jotunsbane]

could it be something as simple as the same result as the DA vs. NL's? with the night lords attempting to attack and fade and not commit to a pitched battle unless it favours them and draw which ever legion sent after it further and further away from terra, while in the process bleeding both itself and the legion sent after it? I can see the SW pursuing just a relentlessly as the DA did. so quite possibly the outcome could be either side being the victor as there's too many outside factors that could influence the final result.

[Augustus]

I have said this before with regard to him and the legion; they will drive themselves to extinction in pursuit of what the are ordered to do. The Wolves sent to monitor the loyalty of primarchs by the Sigilite go so willingly despite the fact that they will all die carrying out said orders. The same is shown in Battle of the Fang and later on in Blood of Asaheim. Magnus points out in Battle of the Fang how unique they are in said loyalty. It is a type of fatalism, associated with their belief in wyrd and is what draws a lot of fans to their side. Loyalty to an extreme fault.

Better to burn out than fade away. ;)

[Grimtooth]

I have said this before with regard to him and the legion; they will drive themselves to extinction in pursuit of what the are ordered to do. The Wolves sent to monitor the loyalty of primarchs by the Sigilite go so willingly despite the fact that they will all die carrying out said orders. The same is shown in Battle of the Fang and later on in Blood of Asaheim. Magnus points out in Battle of the Fang how unique they are in said loyalty. It is a type of fatalism, associated with their belief in wyrd and is what draws a lot of fans to their side. Loyalty to an extreme fault.

Better to burn out than fade away.

Oh yea. The description of Ragnar in Blood of Asaheim seems to be really telling of the mentality I proposed. And in Battle of the Fang, the idea that the job was not done to completion on Prospero drives the Wolves right into a trap set by Magnus that almost has the Fang destroyed.

[Relict]

Regarding Curze's odds against Russ...

 

Let's wait until the FW book on Prospero comes out. Then we pit the two against each other using FW rules. 

 

Mathhammer prevails. :P

[Phoebus]

could it be something as simple as the same result as the DA vs. NL's? with the night lords attempting to attack and fade and not commit to a pitched battle unless it favours them and draw which ever legion sent after it further and further away from terra, while in the process bleeding both itself and the legion sent after it? I can see the SW pursuing just a relentlessly as the DA did. so quite possibly the outcome could be either side being the victor as there's too many outside factors that could influence the final result.

 

Quite a logical conclusion, dear sir.  And also quite similar to the one offered by the author of "Savage Weapons" (the individual who had the Night Lords hitting and running and the Dark Angels chasing for two years or more), back on page 1 of this topic.  That means you're in good company!  :)