GKs and 7th

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Can't "Force Weapon them" if you use Dark Ex, DKs are only ML1.

 

Nuts! lol

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

 

Can't "Force Weapon them" if you use Dark Ex, DKs are only ML1.

Nuts! lol

Although DK's S10 Doomfists are still Daemonbane. For what its worth.

 

SJ

[boreas]

I read those spam lists, and I can't keep from thinking that when you lower the number of rules, people kind of get .... hum... let's use the word weird. So, unbound lists, people will start playing 6-7 DKs? Lucky for us there are still speed limits or else they would drive 100mph in school zones. If people really get that out of hand with unbound list, I say "Bravo, GW! You have managed to tap into humanity's senseless need to win at all cost!".

 

I was playing with my kids the other day. Had a nice water-gun fight. Luckily, even if all water-guns were permitted, nobody brougth a firetruck with a hose generating 45-80 psi...

[Gentlemanloser]

But did someone plug in the garden hose?

 

Take that super soakers!

[boreas]

:)

 

I still feel sad for people who will buy stupid armies. A riptide is 115$ (incl. taxes) here. Add 2-3 hours to assemble it. Let's assume it's won't be painted. So that's around 700$ and 15 hours to bring 6 riptides to the table. I don't know for most people, but for me, that's a lot of time and money to play a game that is now stupidly broken (not to mention the shame of bringing unpainted models... I've placed in the top 3 of the painting score out of 40 players in the local tournement.... For  each of the last 7 years!).

 

After a few games, either that player will tire of his riptide army (or DK army, or whatever), or other players might tire of him, and will have those expensive models on the shelf.

 

Whenever I read about broken lists, I remember that picture of H.G. Wells playing "Little Wars" in a suit and tie. Wargames should be gentlemenly!

[Gentlemanloser]

I dislike the entire Tau range.

 

Apart from the Riptide.

 

I'd be one of those suckers that would go out and but 7, just to run an army of only them.

 

Even if the rules sucked. ;)

 

And I'd won the lottery!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I hope GW does come to its senses and make Unbound a player consent thing. If its not, there is no real way to object to opponents bringing such lists, as they're part of the game. 

 

For casual or friendly games though, I think Unbound is fine (Apoc works with friends or in a structured narrative campaign, outside of that format its Reaper turbo-laser or go home). It's when people get competitive with it that it turns into mini-Apoc where whoever has more money for the big flashy kits wins over someone just dumping their model collection onto the table. Escalation and Stronghold are in the same boat; they're fun expansions that should not be taken seriously. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Everything is player consent though.

 

And every single game of 40k is competitive.  There is no Co-op play versus a neutral Games Master.

[boreas]

I agree with everything GL said. But that being said, GW necessitate a higher level of fairplay. The fact that GW wants to incorporate so many things like fluff and cinematic play in a game that's got so many possible combination makes it so.

 

Don't know if it's politically ok to say this, but I see it as a British thing, like those old one-shot pistol duels...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Everything is player consent though.

What I mean is though, it's hard to make reasonable objections to someone else playing Unbound if GW don't put any restrictions on it. My group is pretty good, no one takes Formations or multiple Allies, but if they did no one would be able to complain about it, because its 100% legal. In a tourney environment, it's your perogative to refuse to play, it just means you won't win any games because you're out. (shrug)

 

 

And every single game of 40k is competitive.  There is no Co-op play versus a neutral Games Master.

 

Well yeah, every game is a contest. But the stakes can be higher or lower depending on the context. Most of my games I try to win, but sometimes I might break out my Tau or Chaos Marines and sorta play the models rather than play a planned-out force. My group is like the epitome of beer n pretzels gaming, they do custom scenarios and 2v2 fights and generally we don't quibble point costs because we assume people will be honest. Which they generally are, so it works out well. I've had grudge matches though against the Tyranid player though haha, I felt dirty after I curbstomped his first try at 6th edition Nids with almost no casualties to me until the end. 

 

I agree with everything GL said. But that being said, GW necessitate a higher level of fairplay. The fact that GW wants to incorporate so many things like fluff and cinematic play in a game that's got so many possible combination makes it so.

What 40k needs more than anything is consistency. Not stagnation, but keeping the core rules and restrictions that we all play with the same across editions. Tweaking special rules, or reducing the cost of a unit or its upgrades is always a random process, sometimes its good and sometimes its not. Vehicles went from being a tad overpowered in 5th (mainly due to the difficulty of balancing AV versus Toughness and wounds) to mostly garbage in 6th etc. That kinda thing happens every edition, we grind our teeth and adapt. 

 

But this whole idea of throwing away the Force Org chart to sell minis is insane. None of the 'I only like to paint and write stories about my army' crowd will benefit from this either. They'll put down their Unbound lovingly painted force, and proceed to get curbstomped by 7 Daemon Prince or 6 Riptide or whatever the local flavour of Unbound is. It's just stupid and unhealthy for the game. Double Force Org at least forces the fig leaf of 2 HQ and 4 Troops, ensuring that you at least pretend its a balanced force before filling out 6 Elite or Heavy or whatever. Unbound just means 'meh, take Titans for all we care, we just want you to buy all these monster boxes'. 

 

 

Don't know if it's politically ok to say this, but I see it as a British thing, like those old one-shot pistol duels...

 

Bit of a broad cultural generalization. I think it's more GW's actual culture. They've never taken the rules aspect of the game seriously, it's always been more about the background and the minis themselves. That's why they keep making mistakes edition after edition, but the mini quality and the background get a lot of work put into them (and it shows). Black Library makes money hand over fist, not just out of 40k nerds, but out of a whole lot of people (Horus Heresy in the best seller lists is pretty amazing). GW still have some of the best looking miniatures in the industry, with the caveat that of course some stuff (Fantasy in particular) needs to be melted down again. 

 

I wish they'd outsource it TBH. It's clear no one in the design studio has any passion for rules writing. They wanna do narrative campaigns and write scenarios. 

[DinoDoc]

No, just no.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qHDzjFzBL_Q/U2pP70-DwyI/AAAAAAAAIPw/Pcbz06DO700/s1600/Dmnology.jpg

[Gentlemanloser]

Quote

What I mean is though, it's hard to make reasonable objections to someone else playing Unbound if GW don't put any restrictions on it. My group is pretty good, no one takes Formations or multiple Allies, but if they did no one would be able to complain about it, because its 100% legal. In a tourney environment, it's your perogative to refuse to play, it just means you won't win any games because you're out. (shrug)

Totally! 100% this.

Quote

Well yeah, every game is a contest. But the stakes can be higher or lower depending on the context. Most of my games I try to win, but sometimes I might break out my Tau or Chaos Marines and sorta play the models rather than play a planned-out force. My group is like the epitome of beer n pretzels gaming, they do custom scenarios and 2v2 fights and generally we don't quibble point costs because we assume people will be honest. Which they generally are, so it works out well. I've had grudge matches though against the Tyranid player though haha, I felt dirty after I curbstomped his first try at 6th edition Nids with almost no casualties to me until the end.

Can't and won't disagree with any of this either.

Towards the end of 5th, my group had an unofficial group objective of "Kill the DreadKnight". Didn't matter if I tabled them, they would claim a moral victory if they managed to slay one of my two DreadKnights.

Quote

What 40k needs more than anything is consistency. Not stagnation, but keeping the core rules and restrictions that we all play with the same across editions. Tweaking special rules, or reducing the cost of a unit or its upgrades is always a random process, sometimes its good and sometimes its not. Vehicles went from being a tad overpowered in 5th (mainly due to the difficulty of balancing AV versus Toughness and wounds) to mostly garbage in 6th etc. That kinda thing happens every edition, we grind our teeth and adapt.

But this whole idea of throwing away the Force Org chart to sell minis is insane. None of the 'I only like to paint and write stories about my army' crowd will benefit from this either. They'll put down their Unbound lovingly painted force, and proceed to get curbstomped by 7 Daemon Prince or 6 Riptide or whatever the local flavour of Unbound is. It's just stupid and unhealthy for the game. Double Force Org at least forces the fig leaf of 2 HQ and 4 Troops, ensuring that you at least pretend its a balanced force before filling out 6 Elite or Heavy or whatever. Unbound just means 'meh, take Titans for all we care, we just want you to buy all these monster boxes'.

Nail, meet head. Again.

Quote

Don't know if it's politically ok to say this, but I see it as a British thing

More tea Vicor? Would you like a Scone?

Quote

Bit of a broad cultural generalization. I think it's more GW's actual culture. They've never taken the rules aspect of the game seriously, it's always been more about the background and the minis themselves. That's why they keep making mistakes edition after edition, but the mini quality and the background get a lot of work put into them (and it shows). Black Library makes money hand over fist, not just out of 40k nerds, but out of a whole lot of people (Horus Heresy in the best seller lists is pretty amazing). GW still have some of the best looking miniatures in the industry, with the caveat that of course some stuff (Fantasy in particular) needs to be melted down again.

Totally, it's not us. It's just GW. I'd be a rules first, the minis would follow kind of guy if I was running GW.

Of course, I'd stop everyone working for elevensies.

Edit;

Dino, Draigo summoning Mortarion? To carve his name in his heart again?

But seriosuly, there is no justification for a GK (or Puritan Inquisitor) summoning a Daemon.

[boreas]

Let's not forget that this new power is supposed to have a "light" side. Although summoning "Imperial Angels" or "saints" is not my view of 40k grimdark. To me, it's never been about "Good" vs "Evil", it's always been about "Humanity" vs "Evil" (with the only source of "Good", the Emperor, being absent. The Horus Heresy is a tremendous Tragedy which central theme is the absence of  God/ The Father despite The Humanity/Sons reverence to him).

 

So, all and all, I'd rather have my GKs summon a deamon to win  than defer to an Imperial Saint, because to me GKs are the paragons of ruthlessness - they are the WAAC players of the 40k universe. They'll just kill the deamon afterward like one disposes of an illegal gun in a public dumpster.

[Gentlemanloser]

I donno...

 

GKGK: "We need to go to Gamma Persius Three to send a Daemonic Invasion back to the warp"

Justicar: "How shall we do this Grand Master, our number are limited."

GKGK: "We shall Summon some more Daemons, to send those others back to the Warp!"

[boreas]

Come on GL... I know you have a better imagination than that :) Forge that Narrative. By the time your game starts, your 20-25 GKs had been sent to quash a fairly small demonic force on a human colony. However, thing went awry when that Tau invasion arrived massively. The GKs decide to throw the Daemons at the Tau letting the Camel-footed-Fish-Men suffer the losses instead of precious GKs. After crushing the upstart race, GKs finish mopping up whatever daemons are left (that happens after the game, which you obviously won...).

 

Forge it, dude, forge it.

 

:)

[Gentlemanloser]

You need to amend your narative mate. ;)

 

It should be;

 

"While mopping up a small Daemonic force on a human colony, when the Tau arrive, the GK takes the decision to forgo all thier training and open the Warp and bring back those Daemons (or thier cousins) they just mopped up to send against the Tau."

 

/whistles

[boreas]

Well, that's a game-mechanic reflection. The game-mechanic is a "summoning". How about we interpret it as "influencing the Daemons towards the Tau using their bright anti-demonic aura. These are the guys who willingly commit human sacrifice on Sisters of Battle, remember? The game mechanic also allows for a GKGM to lose close-combat vs Tau pathfinders :) Hammer/Anvil/Narrative ;)

 

Works better for me than desperate GKs calling down an Imperial Saint to smithe down their foes.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The game mechanic also allows for a GKGM to lose close-combat vs Tau pathfinders

 

/sobs

 

Why taunt me! :P

 

 

Works better for me than desperate GKs calling down an Imperial Saint to smithe down their foes.

 

Lets not mince words.  Basically we're trying to think up an explaination to make the rules palatable. ;)

[boreas]

Yep :) But as long as players don't exploit those rules (my gaming group won't) and that it makes for a cinematic Rule of Cool, I'm really ok with that. Now, it will be a pickle for tournement user but to be honest, I don't care ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

What, you're not going to take at 1850 points, 33 PML1 Inquisitors, to try to summon a Daemon Prince with each of them each turn?

 

;)

 

6 Turns, a possible 198 Daemon Princes to be summoned!

 

O_O

[boreas]

:) 6 turns to make GW's share go up at the price of friendship....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

>33 summing rolls a turn
The horror...

Look, in terms of making Knights summoning Daemons palatable, forget it. The stated mission of the Chapter is to purge the daemonic no matter the cost or consequences. If people wanna do that to be edgy or simply for funsies, that's cool. But it's still a violation of the background.

Let's not forget that this new power is supposed to have a "light" side. Although summoning "Imperial Angels" or "saints" is not my view of 40k grimdark. To me, it's never been about "Good" vs "Evil", it's always been about "Humanity" vs "Evil" (with the only source of "Good", the Emperor, being absent. The Horus Heresy is a tremendous Tragedy which central theme is the absence of God/ The Father despite The Humanity/Sons reverence to him).

I'll grant you, 40k is less about 'good versus evil' and more about 'can humanity survive to even still be in the fight tomorrow'. Knights are not paragons of virtue, they're the most ruthless warriors in the Imperium. Billions of innocents die to save trillions etc. Having said that, for extremely obvious reasons, they'd never summon daemons.

So, all and all, I'd rather have my GKs summon a deamon to win than defer to an Imperial Saint, because to me GKs are the paragons of ruthlessness - they are the WAAC players of the 40k universe. They'll just kill the deamon afterward like one disposes of an illegal gun in a public dumpster.

Knights probably understand what Saints are better than almost anyone else, given their perspective on the warp. I wouldn't say they'd defer to one (Saints by definition are symbols more than anything else, Emperor-fulled combat prowess and crazy psychic powers aside), but they'd probably fight alongside one without much difficulty. Also Saints aren't summoned, they're more willed into being when the Emperor senses his intervention is needed. He generally only powers a Saint for a specific Crusade, then they martyr themselves a final time taking down an enemy warlord or a great daemon.

Knights aren't WAAC, they're pragmatists. They understand that victory is merely a word, survival is actually the more fitting term for the job they do. There can be no final victory over the warp, it's like trying to hold back the ocean with a teaspoon and wishful thinking. In fact, as Thawn and probably even some of the Librarians know, humanity is destined to lose. They're basically just buying time for the Emperor to either rise again, or finally die along with the human race.

[boreas]

I think that the GK's actions are beyond pragmatism. Blood sacrifice of loyal allies, killing the population of whole worlds, etc... A pragmatist would be willing to concede that certain victories come at too high a price. For the GKs, there is no cost high enough to make them back down. Of course, that might vary from GKGM to GKGM.

 

As I told GL, I don't think they'd summon daemons. That's just the wording of a game mechanic. But would they let the daemon run rampant amongst Tau/Eldar/CSM ranks for a few hours before they acutally intervene? I think they would and that's its an okay way to shoe-horn a rule on our fluff. I don't expect GW to create a general rule like summoning powers but to taylor it to each faction's fluff at the same time. I'd rather have a fun game-mechanic and forge my narrative :) For "real" fluff, I read BL novels ;)

[Valerian]

So, all and all, I'd rather have my GKs summon a deamon to win  than defer to an Imperial Saint, because to me GKs are the paragons of ruthlessness - they are the WAAC players of the 40k universe. They'll just kill the deamon afterward like one disposes of an illegal gun in a public dumpster.

 

 

I seriously doubt that the 'Sanctic' side of Deamonology will have anything to do with summoning Saints/good-guys.  Probably more along the lines of defeating daemons, which is what we do in the Grey Knights already.  I have no proof or inside knowledge, of course; I just don't see the designers doing this.  As a dual-sided psychic discipline, I imagine one-side is focused on leveraging daemonic war power, while the other side focuses on defeating it.  If anything, I would guess that the 5e Grey Knight powers (Dark Excommunication, for example) are the precursors of the Sanctic table.

 

Valerian

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think that the GK's actions are beyond pragmatism. Blood sacrifice of loyal allies, killing the population of whole worlds, etc... A pragmatist would be willing to concede that certain victories come at too high a price. For the GKs, there is no cost high enough to make them back down. Of course, that might vary from GKGM to GKGM.

No, that's still pragmatism. If the Knights hadn't sacrificed the Sisters, the Blood Tide would've consumed the entire world, and they would've failed to stop a daemonic incursion. As I mentioned before, Knights are trained to accept victory no matter the cost. That's the philosophy of the Imperium as well. I very much doubt anyone above Justicar rank would even think twice about making the same decisions. They simply wouldn't be entrusted with command if they couldn't do it.

As I told GL, I don't think they'd summon daemons. That's just the wording of a game mechanic. But would they let the daemon run rampant amongst Tau/Eldar/CSM ranks for a few hours before they acutally intervene? I think they would and that's its an okay way to shoe-horn a rule on our fluff. I don't expect GW to create a general rule like summoning powers but to taylor it to each faction's fluff at the same time. I'd rather have a fun game-mechanic and forge my narrative For "real" fluff, I read BL novels

No, because Knights are not concerned with lesser forces like xenos or heretics. Sure, if you get in their way or the Knights are in the area and don't have daemons to hunt, they'll intervene (the codex gives examples of this, ie on their way back from campaign a Knight strike force annihilated an Ork invasion). They'd if anything stand with the Tau/Eldar against the daemons, then when the conflict is over they'd probably allow the xenos to leave, or purge them if they resist. A classic example of this is when the Chapter deployed to a craftworld and purged the daemonic infestation, then stood guard over the soulstones the daemons didn't eat until Eldar showed up to take over. Any other Imperial force would've just set fire to the place and killed any Eldar that showed up.

This is a misconception I've heard before. Knights aren't just Marines Mk2, they have a fundamentally different purpose and focus to their efforts. That's why they use xenos tech and even forge alliances with aliens races, because the threat of the malefic trumps all other concerns. Given how destructive warp breaches are, it's a understandable position to take, even if it does put them into direct conflict with the dictates of other Imperial factions (ie regular Marine and Guardsmen would just kill any xenos they encountered).

I guess if you're really keen on summoning Daemons, you'd use Inquisitors, not Knights. Inquisitors can and would use one enemy against another enemy, that's classic manipulation that Eldar etc engage in. I'd imagine the Inquisitor would encourage warp cults on say a Tau-occupied world, then when the infestation gets underway and has sufficiently weakened the Tau's military strength, he calls in the Knights as clean up crew (plus Navy and IG to take care of the Tau fleet assets and to occupy the world after the xenos are destroyed). That's perfectly plausible and requires no stretching of the imagination or violation of the background to work.