Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Well, that's hard to know right now. Even with pooled dice, there could be a limit to warp charg expanditure. It could be that Psykers can only cast within their power lever plus one. No such limit exists in Fantasy. Obviously you'd run out of power dice before casting all your powers in a single turn, but nothing theoretically prevents it. Given GW didn't think through either system's magic phase (hence the boring Purple Sun spam in WHFB), I wouldn't trust them to put limits on it. Moving discussion back to 'Summon Daemons For Great Victory' Edition... Daemon infantry don't worry me too much, we tear them apart with little effort. Princes and the faster Greater Daemons ('Thirsters, Keepers) are going to be a real pain. They will tear apart DK's before they can swing (sigh), and realistically only a warding stave will keep them from murdering our heroes. Warding staves on squads is probably going to be necessary to this end. Not on squad leaders though, refuse challenges when offered and just force them to batter the closest model (equipped with a stave). Squad hammers will be necessary to ensure a wound on target, then its a force activation test and poof no more monster. Our weapon selections won't change much either. Massed psycannon is still the best path to getting rid of all things daemonic. Grinders present an annoyance, but DK's can hunt them down. Coteaz in a Purgation or Purifier squad to prevent drops/summonings close to the line of battle helps. Psybolts I'm thinking are gonna get more and more relevant. S5 is enough to worry the big monsters when fired en-masse, and it'll make their infantry even more pathetically easy to kill (at that point we basically re-roll to wound, plus mass 'Prescience' we can really maximise the damage output of every squad). Terminators are in a bit of a bad spot I feel. Strikes just offer so much more firepower, the Strikes can also tank more wounds before their surviving hammers take down the monster (Terminators risk getting cut down completely before even one survives to swing a hammer). I'll try them out before making my decision, but more dudes and shots feels like a better plan than going elite. As far as Allies go, what could stand up to a GD and win? Our DK's are better placed tearing apart multi-wound daemon units like Hounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3685887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 If summoning is "the" thing in 7th, I can see our army being a bit more popular. I still can't believe there won't be some capping. Also, I hope not all armies can access that lore. Add to this many factors (Tau, DE and Necrons have no psykers, psychic defenses like the hood could become better, Sanctify psychic table might be nastier than anything GK could bring, lots of people won't buy the models, etc...) and I think that Deamons wont be the new flyers. On that, if Sanctify is available to GK and the new psychic pool allows for regular BoP squads to cast those powers, we might become "the" solutions :) Oh, and if only psylencers could work properly.... On a side note, I wonder if Thawn and Mordrak will now have a clearer working... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 New Ally MatrixBattle Brothers - • Eldar/DE • Chaos/Daemons • All Imperium All others are convenience, desperate or apocalypse. http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2014/05/new-ally-matrix.html GK have Battle Brothers now. Who's the best ally option for GK assuming this is true? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 Whoever can bring the most Daemonolgy Psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Really? When all Sanctify psykers will have a Warp 3 power that does 2d6 wounds (no save) on a daemon unit inside 24" or some other nonsense? Hopefully, a 1850pts GK army will have 6-8 (+d6) warp charges and will be able to clear that table quickly. And that's if you new horrendous Peril of the Warp doesn't cause a psychic reflux-or-something causing a St6 on all your psykers (it's on the WFB table)... I think it's better to wait until we have the full facts before running in circles screaming "Oh noes, daemons will kill the game". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 New Ally Matrix Battle Brothers - • Eldar/DE • Chaos/Daemons • All Imperium All others are convenience, desperate or apocalypse. http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2014/05/new-ally-matrix.html GK have Battle Brothers now. Who's the best ally option for GK assuming this is true? I think the beauty of the new matrix isn't so much that it opens up options for Grey Knights, but rather that it removes nasty combinations for potential opponents, huzzah! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 It gives us some equally nasty options. Take IG for BB priests, combined with prescience and hammerhand they will become the badassest list to combat anything, daemons should be quivering in their boots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 I think it's better to wait until we have the full facts before runningin circles screaming "Oh noes, daemons will kill the game". LoL! Any option that gives out a wealth of free units is terribly broken. As pushed as the points limit is, the points are there to give at least a sembelance of balance. Being able to ignore them just throws everything out of the window. And now it's confirmed that unbound armies aren't limited to a single Codex.... Well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 DUN DUN DUUUNNN!!!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I always found it a bit distasteful that Tau and regular Marines were best buds, but they didn't trust Knights. A slightly sad note, all the effort Forge World went to with the Red Hunters is now wasted :( we can ally any Chapter Trait we like now. IG will probably be the most absurd one. Priests are utterly insane with Purifiers or Terminators, I'm thinking swords + re-rolls saves will be pretty obnoxious (re-rollable 4+ invul in melee, oh hell re-rollable 2+ invul on warding staves...lel). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 Rerollable 2++ Saves HO!!! It's not like they dominated 6th or anything. And now Dameons can get 1++ saves... At least ours are in CC only. Right? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 At least ours are in CC only. Right? Sadly yes. My hope is that mass Daemon Prince armies make Riptide and Serpent Spam no longer viable, shifting the meta in favour of us again. Once the game turns into a melee brawl, we're a lot stronger as an army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3686987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 You can't Conjure Daemon Princes, sadly. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3687019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 You can't Conjure Daemon Princes, sadly. Just wait for the supplement ;) Eh, Lords of Change and Bloodthirsters are better anyway. Especially considering you don't pay points for them, which is the most insane thing about all this summoning. At least under the old CSM rules, you paid a nominal cost for the daemons you were going to summon, and then either had to have an Icon or character to sacrifice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3687049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Am I the only one crossing fingers that Grey Knights Librarians will suddenly be well worth the 150+ points? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3688662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Am I the only one crossing fingers that Grey Knights Librarians will suddenly be well worth the 150+ points?I've always found them worth their points, and base my lists around always having one. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3688798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 15, 2014 Author Share Posted May 15, 2014 I stick two fingers up at our Libbies and use the cheaper, and better, Inquisitors. Nyah! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3688949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 It depends what you mean by better. Our libbys are PML2 which means you only need a 4+ to deny, the same chance to activate a power. Upgrade to PML3 and that 3+ to deny is better than the chance to activate any power, plus you have more warp charges to throw more dice at denying to ensure they cant get a power off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3689318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 It depends what you mean by better. Our libbys are PML2 which means you only need a 4+ to deny, the same chance to activate a power. Upgrade to PML3 and that 3+ to deny is better than the chance to activate any power, plus you have more warp charges to throw more dice at denying to ensure they cant get a power off. I think his whole point was that they are better in 6e (and also cheaper), so he has been sticking his middle fingers up at our Grey Knight Librarians. You are listing out some potential 7e improvements, which doesn't negate GML's point about them currently; your information does, however, reinforce my hope the our Librarians will be worth investing in again. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3689337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 And they have a Psychic hood, no? I think that's been rumored to add 1 to Deny rolls. Which means that against a PM1 psyker, the Libby would deny on a 3+ (base 6+, being a Psyker, Being higher mastery, Having a Psy Hood)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3689927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Librarians are a pretty solid choice against Daemons. They're the only other model with 'Dark Excommunication' besides DK's, plus they can pack a warding stave. Mastery 2 by default and a hood, plus Paladin statline, not bad. 'Sanctuary' helps in ensuring you get the charge (so you can proc psyk-out grenades and go first), 'Shrouding' helps against their limited amount of AP3 and AP2 ranged, 'Quicksilver' is solid gold if you get charged by something fast, 'Warp Rift' is chancy but its still better than 'Smite', 'Might' helps when stacking with 'Hammerhand' on halberds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3689941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 It looks like daemons arent selling very well this edition so they're letting any army purchase them, I mean play them, next edition. Nothing in the leaked table indicates that any army can use it; it is very likely that access to that Psychic Discipline will be limited.Quoting myself so that I can freely admit that I was dead wrong on this. It now appears that pretty much any psychic faction can choose from the Daemonology discipline, with access to the Malefic powers, with the exception of Grey Knights, who get Sanctic only. My prognosticator was way off on this. V http://www.games-workshop.com/resources//blogs/2014/05/19/2xlTR.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3693548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Thanks, I was trying to put that image for hours (weird linkage not functioning for me!) WE're also the only ones who can cast Sanctify powers WITHOUT having perils on any doubles... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3693593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 It looks like daemons arent selling very well this edition so they're letting any army purchase them, I mean play them, next edition. Nothing in the leaked table indicates that any army can use it; it is very likely that access to that Psychic Discipline will be limited.Quoting myself so that I can freely admit that I was dead wrong on this. It now appears that pretty much any psychic faction can choose from the Daemonology discipline, with access to the Malefic powers, with the exception of Grey Knights, who get Sanctic only. My prognosticator was way off on this. V http://www.games-workshop.com/resources//blogs/2014/05/19/2xlTR.jpg I was secretly hoping you were right as I was actually exaggerating. Damn. [edit]On the plus side, we have potential against all factions now ('cept 'nids) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290696-gks-and-7th/page/4/#findComment-3693598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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