Why I may [or may] not be concerned about 7th Ed.

[Master Sheol]

I was considering about Battle forged and Unbound

This Bonus from Battle forged will be our strongest gain i think...

cause other armies need Unbound to spam their strongest units that are in elite or FA or HS while we DA through Sammael, Belial or Azrael can unlock RWAS and DWTS to troops leaving room in elite and FA for DWK and BK and in addition we have BK in form of RWCS too... And all this keeping Battle forged and getting the bonuses...

 

I hope that the new BRN will put some new strenght in our army (even if GW is not able to give us a decent codex)

[Master Avoghai]

I keep in mind the chapter traits system that GW created for the 4th ed codex... Remember how heterogenous were the advantages of the same category? Same thing for the drawbacks...

 

So I don't expect much from the battle forged advantages...

 

The thing is : for me, inbalance comes from the codex (eldar serpent profile, tau markers+ counter charge system...)

Few things really are badly done in the core rules (maybe the disembakment from transport and the FMC rules)

[Cactus]

Came across a pretty cool 7th Ed teaser picture relating to us, while browsing Dakka:

Edit: I think this is a free poster that comes with the White Dwarf Weekly, possibly this weeks edition. I might have to buy a White Dwarf after all...

Not a poster. It's a postcard that's turning up in mail orders. I know because I got one yesterday with my copy of Vengeful Spirit. I'm curious to know what numbers 1, 2 and 4 look like.

[Terrahawk]

Came across a pretty cool 7th Ed teaser picture relating to us, while browsing Dakka:

<snip>

Edit: I think this is a free poster that comes with the White Dwarf Weekly, possibly this weeks edition. I might have to buy a White Dwarf after all...

Not a poster. It's a postcard that's turning up in mail orders. I know because I got one yesterday with my copy of Vengeful Spirit. I'm curious to know what numbers 1, 2 and 4 look like.

Cheers for the correction. Guess I propably won't be getting that WD after all then. Still a cool pic though!

[Master Sheol]

1 card is the Astra Militarum Commissar...

1 card is an Imperial Knight

1 card is a DA

1 card is a CSM

[Chaplain Lucifer]

2. Nephifail: I don't see anything short of updating the codex that will save this unit from leaving my priming table.

The Nephilim doesn't need saving it it's used how it's intended. 3 S5 and 5 S6 shots at BS5 are actually quite nice at taking out infantry while not getting so much fire in return.  Maybe not Hardcore tournament nice but Beer&pretzels nice .But I digress.

[Prot]

 

2. Nephifail: I don't see anything short of updating the codex that will save this unit from leaving my priming table.

The Nephilim doesn't need saving it it's used how it's intended. 3 S5 and 5 S6 shots at BS5 are actually quite nice at taking out infantry while not getting so much fire in return.  Maybe not Hardcore tournament nice but Beer&pretzels nice .But I digress.

 

How many tournaments have you played it in?

 

I've played it in ~10 games in prep for tournament. I just couldn't get it to make the cut. Closest I could do was rip off he las and put on the mega bolter and turn it into a pill box. But again... it's just too expensive and outclassed.... I agree it's 'beer and pretzels' at best, but what isn't?

 

The thing that frustrates me and it is just frustration here, is I bought heavily into Dark Angels and I feel like when I finally made the decision to leave Chaos I may have just traded one difficult army to use for another. 

 

Now as 7th turns the corner, I guess my somewhat -immature- fear (it's just a game!) is we are going to be that much further behind the curve with 7th ed books pouring out.

 

I just played against the new IG over the past few weeks.... By the Emperor's dusty old grapes I swear that Deathstrike is enough to make me put my Deathwing to bed for good.... and I can fantasize about 7th helping us out all I want but I just don't see GW coming through for us. 

 

And that's me being objective. I apologize if it comes off negative. I sincerely mean that. But I play in a no holds barred environment where I will face the latest 'netlists' every week, so 'beer and pretzel' units kind of drain the life out of me because I find DA very hard to be competitive even with our 'ace' units on the table to begin with.

 

That being said we have had a lot of fun playing 6th in the harshest environment possible. I don't mind playing Buff-mander or Tau-Dar because I relish the challenge. 7th has a chance to help us out... if anyone at GW cares to do so is another question. How many more DV boxes do they really think they can sell?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

DA were never a tournament army I'm afraid. I'm sorry for you that have play in a harsh environment... but really it's not the best environment to enjoy playing with DA. Sure we have a couple of better builds and star units but all in all we just don't measure up to the sharks. Still I don't think 7th will make it worse for us. We have psykers so we can do some psyker stuf and counter it as well. If CC gets buffed we have DWK and DW. Overall I'm optmistic and we'll loose some and win some maintaining the same status quo.

[Azoriel]

But what about from a fluff perspective?  The Nephilim may do very well in a ground attack role, though it's supposed to be an interceptor (anti-air) first and foremost - versus Heldrakes (the Nephilim's most probable enemy given the DA's hatred of chaos marines) it can't really do much, even if the heldrake is equipped with baleflamers and completely unprepared to deal with other flyers.  Similarly, the avenger megabolter and blacksword missiles are lauded for their anti-air abilities, yet this is moreorless nonexistent in the actual game.  IMO, simply adjusting those two weapons (maybe rending on the avenger and armourbane vs flyers on the black sword?) would go a long way to making the Nephilim better match the fluff, as well as making it crunchy enough to be competitive.

[Master Sheol]

Fluff and rules often dont match in GW codexes just because the design team is not Professional...

 

If you are Lucky you get a good codex if not you still have beautiful miniatures...

 

This is GW... Love it or leave it...

[Brother dean]

When was the last time that the fluff was actually reflected in the rules?  Space Marines can take on hordes of cultists without a scratch...  

 

The author of the fluff didnt take into account what the rules would do on the table top...

[HsojVvad]

 

 

2. Nephifail: I don't see anything short of updating the codex that will save this unit from leaving my priming table.

The Nephilim doesn't need saving it it's used how it's intended. 3 S5 and 5 S6 shots at BS5 are actually quite nice at taking out infantry while not getting so much fire in return.  Maybe not Hardcore tournament nice but Beer&pretzels nice .But I digress.

 

How many tournaments have you played it in?

 

I've played it in ~10 games in prep for tournament. I just couldn't get it to make the cut. Closest I could do was rip off he las and put on the mega bolter and turn it into a pill box. But again... it's just too expensive and outclassed.... I agree it's 'beer and pretzels' at best, but what isn't?

 

The thing that frustrates me and it is just frustration here, is I bought heavily into Dark Angels and I feel like when I finally made the decision to leave Chaos I may have just traded one difficult army to use for another. 

 

Now as 7th turns the corner, I guess my somewhat -immature- fear (it's just a game!) is we are going to be that much further behind the curve with 7th ed books pouring out.

 

I just played against the new IG over the past few weeks.... By the Emperor's dusty old grapes I swear that Deathstrike is enough to make me put my Deathwing to bed for good.... and I can fantasize about 7th helping us out all I want but I just don't see GW coming through for us. 

 

And that's me being objective. I apologize if it comes off negative. I sincerely mean that. But I play in a no holds barred environment where I will face the latest 'netlists' every week, so 'beer and pretzel' units kind of drain the life out of me because I find DA very hard to be competitive even with our 'ace' units on the table to begin with.

 

That being said we have had a lot of fun playing 6th in the harshest environment possible. I don't mind playing Buff-mander or Tau-Dar because I relish the challenge. 7th has a chance to help us out... if anyone at GW cares to do so is another question. How many more DV boxes do they really think they can sell?

 

Said this before, I will say it again. :)

 

We are Dark Angels.  We play because we love the minis. We play because we love the fluff. We play because we love the play style. We don't need to win. We play because WE ARE DARK ANGELS. 

 

If you need to win with plastic toy soldiers, then Dark Angels are not for you. It's sad you spent so much time and money for an army that you are not happy with. I really don't know what to say to make it better for you. All I can think of is, just use your DA (if they are painted as DA) as "counts as" and use another codex. 

 

Some advice? I use to CRY and COMPLAIN and WHINE and throw TANTRUMS when the DA got their 4th edition codex, and then when SM got their 5th edition codex my lib blew off. I felt betrayed and lied to by GW. After months of acting like a child throwing tantrums, I looked in the mirror. What did I see? A 35 year old male who is crying, complaining about PLASTIC TOY SOLDIERS. I said to myself what am I so worked up over this? I have become a miserable person. It's only toy soldiers. Either accept it or leave. So I accepted it. Why? Because I am stubborn. Maybe that is why I feel like I have DA blood through me. When other people told me to use the SM codex and I saw another DA player use the SM codex, I still stuck through my DA and Tyranids through 5th edition. (we all know how bad Nids were in 5th :P)

 

In the end, the thing is, I believe DA are not for you. DA is not an army for people who want to win. DA are for people who love the fluff, the minis and theme as I said before. You may as well cut your losses now and just go onto Space Marines, and either repaint your minis or just use them as "counts as". 

 

Nothing wrong with that. These are your minis. This is your time and money. Play what makes fun for you. If you are not having fun then you need to change something. 

[Azoriel]

Oh? So you wouldn't mind if we went back to the era of storm shields that didn't protect against ranged attacks? Or having a one in six chance of not being able to move or assault each turn (the hated intractable rule)? There's a world of difference between giving constructive criticism (which is productive) and throwing a tantrum (which is not). Both of these are things that got complained about before, and eventually (with the edition that followed) they got fixed. Consider for a moment Marneus Calgar, who, some editions ago, was just a force commander with two mastercrafted power fists, a stormbolter equivalent (not twin-linked or anything), and the ability to pass or fail leadership checks at a whim. No invulnerable save, no eternal warrior, no extra power sword to strike at I, no TDA option, no re-rolling to wound. He didn't get the way he is now from Ultra players brow-beating and shaming each other into silence over why he wasn't being fielded.

Of course, it's good to be ready to accept what may come - but it's also important not to throw away opportunities for change should they arise.

[Interrogator Stobz]

...And that is exactly what 7th is, an opportunity for change :tu:   If the slip up by GeeDub with our FAQ means anything we may be in for a brighter future. They do give us plenty of attention (one of theses cards is nice, we are the ONLY Loyal Astartes on them too), maybe, just maybe they'll put some effort into an effective FAQ too :lol:

[Brother dean]

I regret that I only have one like to give HsoVvad!!

[Master Sheol]

Stobz... Nevver trust in GW's Game designers... They are not able to do the work they are payed for...

[Interrogator Stobz]

Maybe if we get them to nerf us, they'll muck it up and we'll actually benefit :P

[Master Sheol]

Probably.. :P

[Prot]

Said this before, I will say it again.

We are Dark Angels. We play because we love the minis. We play because we love the fluff. We play because we love the play style. We don't need to win. We play because WE ARE DARK ANGELS.

If you need to win with plastic toy soldiers, then Dark Angels are not for you.

Nothing wrong with that. These are your minis. This is your time and money. Play what makes fun for you. If you are not having fun then you need to change something.

I think this is a bit of an unfair judgement.

I've been playing this game since the 90's. I've gone through phases where I wanted to (and did) win large tournaments. As in 'first place'. I've gone with purely fluff armies that I wanted to look amazing and win 'best painted'. But the closest I got was second best appearance for my armies.

But what you guys in general have to realize is there is a difference between the mentality of ' NEED to WIN' vs Competitive.

Now I won't assume the environment you play in, but since I described my local scene as being full of netlisting, and basically people trying to get armies tournament ready that doesn't mean I need to win. Not at all...

My latest phase is trying to take the non-flavour of the month and be as competitive as possible with it against the scene I just described. But here's what it boils down to: if most games you're playing against the kind of army that has you conceding in 3 turns, or packing up your models almost quicker than it takes you to set up a game, that gets real old, real fast. Imagine that for 20 out of 25 games.....

Is there a desire to win? Absolutely. I'm not going to lie. Given the choice, I'll take a 'great/fun game' with a win attached to it.

So I honestly don't know if you're trying to be helpful, or just politely asking me to move along, but please don't assume I need to win.

All I was hoping for is some fixes in 7th that would help me accomplish the goal I just listed. We all play this game for a LOT of different reasons. I love the DA background, I love the models.... I love my Ravenwing in particular. I'm just hoping 7th edition will keep me competitive (and buff some 'dead' units) with the stuff I'm facing today. I honestly think (as stated before) that 7th could fix up some stuff pretty easily, but remains to be seen.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

1. 4ed consolidate in to combat is in. Meaning DWK and DW can hop from CC to CC

2. If you fail to cast a power you can't cast it the rest of the game. Fair enough.

3. Every unit including vehicles will now score. MSU Ravenwing

4. Unbound armies may not contest objectives

5. Lords of war are in

6. Escalation and stronghold remain as they are now

7. Vehicles will be harder to kill the chart changes once more. Good for our fragile speeders

8. The book will come out in 3 options Art like warhammer visions, Fluff book, and one that only contains rules and that one is about as think as the current SM book.

9.difficult terrain is just -2 inches

10. Wound allocation has changed a bit.not super clear as to how.

11. D-weapons toned down but he was unclear as what that meant so from the sounds of it they will still be super ugly. --

Bold comments by me.

So looks like 7th may not be the end of DA. ;)

[Brother dean]

Luci? Where is quote from and is it somewhat verified?

 

Vehicles needed a buff, when the only viable transport is a plane or raider we have a problem

[Chaplain Lucifer]

rumors from naftka via BoLS.

[Master Sheol]

These last rumors from BOLS/faeit seem to be good for DA...

I hope now in a decent FAQ/errata too and DA can start to be competitive again (like they were at the end of 3rd edition/start of 4th)...

[HsojVvad]

Said this before, I will say it again.

We are Dark Angels. We play because we love the minis. We play because we love the fluff. We play because we love the play style. We don't need to win. We play because WE ARE DARK ANGELS.

If you need to win with plastic toy soldiers, then Dark Angels are not for you.

Nothing wrong with that. These are your minis. This is your time and money. Play what makes fun for you. If you are not having fun then you need to change something.

I think this is a bit of an unfair judgement.

I've been playing this game since the 90's. I've gone through phases where I wanted to (and did) win large tournaments. As in 'first place'. I've gone with purely fluff armies that I wanted to look amazing and win 'best painted'. But the closest I got was second best appearance for my armies.

But what you guys in general have to realize is there is a difference between the mentality of ' NEED to WIN' vs Competitive.

Now I won't assume the environment you play in, but since I described my local scene as being full of netlisting, and basically people trying to get armies tournament ready that doesn't mean I need to win. Not at all...

My latest phase is trying to take the non-flavour of the month and be as competitive as possible with it against the scene I just described. But here's what it boils down to: if most games you're playing against the kind of army that has you conceding in 3 turns, or packing up your models almost quicker than it takes you to set up a game, that gets real old, real fast. Imagine that for 20 out of 25 games.....

Is there a desire to win? Absolutely. I'm not going to lie. Given the choice, I'll take a 'great/fun game' with a win attached to it.

So I honestly don't know if you're trying to be helpful, or just politely asking me to move along, but please don't assume I need to win.

All I was hoping for is some fixes in 7th that would help me accomplish the goal I just listed. We all play this game for a LOT of different reasons. I love the DA background, I love the models.... I love my Ravenwing in particular. I'm just hoping 7th edition will keep me competitive (and buff some 'dead' units) with the stuff I'm facing today. I honestly think (as stated before) that 7th could fix up some stuff pretty easily, but remains to be seen.

I only can say what I see. While not everyone "needs" to win, this wasn't against you. If you think this was against you, then I apologize, it's not meant against you but in general people. Please explain this to me then.Where are all the Tau players and Eldar players in 5th edition? People who played them, usually played them for the love of them like most of us Dark Angel players. Where are all the Tau and Eldar players when 6th edition showed up? It was the same, people who played them Loved them.

Funny Tau get a new codex. Eldar got a new codex and now a lot of people are playing them. Are they playing them because they love them or because they are easier to Win with? Funny Chaos Space Marines got a new codex. Dark Angles got a new codex? Why are there not many people playing them? It's easy to see, people need to win with plastic toy soldiers so are playing Tau and Eldar or a combination of both of them. I don't see no Tau/DA or Eldar/DA (mind you I don't know if this is even possible didn't check the allies chart to see if this is possible)

So you telling me people don't need to win? I say they do. While there is people who play Tau and Eldar because they love them like us DA players, MOST of them play because they need to win. Once a better codex comes out or the new 7th edition nerds them a bit, you will see them being played less and less just like Space Wolves and Grey Knights.

Where are all the SW and GK players now? I will tell you. Those players who use to play SW and GK are now playing Tau and Eldar.

So this is why I say people need to win with plastic toy soldiers. Not all but most. Maybe now you know what I mean. I was trying to be helpful, not belittle you. Now I see after your rebuttal, now I see where you are coming from. You have done nothing wrong. If anything, I would blame GW for imbalances to the game that we have no control over with. I see you spent your time and money on something you like and you are not an "I must win player". Everyone like to win. Hell I like to win. I loose every game I play when I use to play.

I see you as a person who loves to play and doesn't need to win. Yes I made the mistake of labelling you in the category I mentioned, but I am glad I did say what I did, because now I see the passion you have for the game, which I didn't see the first time. From what I read from what you said, I just meant that DA wasn't for you because they don't have the "tools" in your play style for you to do what you want. Again, I am sorry if you think I labelled you as a person who "must win", I just meant to say that DA wasn't for you or at least the "tools in the DA codex" is not for you.

*edit* I should be saying I am going by mostly by the tourney scene and what I saw when I use to game.

[Brother dean]

My wolfbrother has elder and tau but he is allergic to cheese and doesnt play them that way unless someone is asking for it. And 90% of the time he has his standard wolf list in the car.

 

 

Wolves and GK have their permanent adherents too..