Why I may [or may] not be concerned about 7th Ed.

[IndigoJack]

Added to that, since every unit is rumored to score in a battle forged army, I expect to see more DW command squads.

 

I've been thinking the same thing. It seems DW may actually come out on top after this new addition drops. The ability to have our toys and win games too would be fantastic!

 

I've also heard wound allocation is changing (though no one seems to know how >.>) which could once again make storm shields more worthwhile.

[Master Avoghai]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xuSl4f0IPwI/U3DUJrucaMI/AAAAAAAAhrM/DIcdFOH6knI/s1600/commandbenes.PNG

 

Troops can control an objective OVER a non troops unit. (In a battle forged army)

 

But let's say your command squad has no troops unit nearby, they will control the objective. Hence you'll earn 3VP contrary to none nowadays.

[Prot]

This means the command squad is okay, but still not great. You won't be able to take Belial and Command squad to contest anything with enemy troops involved. This is still an issue...You'd have to clear out all the troops in the area or else your opponent wins the objective.

 

Troops are still paramount unfortunately.

[HsojVvad]

This means the command squad is okay, but still not great. You won't be able to take Belial and Command squad to contest anything with enemy troops involved. This is still an issue...You'd have to clear out all the troops in the area or else your opponent wins the objective.

 

Troops are still paramount unfortunately.

 

Why is that unfortunately?

[Cactus]

I'm sure the 3 ways will have different rules. In any case, to keep this DA related, It's good that we have Fearless, fast and/or stubborn scoring units to capture all those objectives. If the name of the game is picking up objectives and not straight out killing then the DA codex stands a chance.

My favourite strategy is "my dudes will never run away* and I'll make it difficult for you to kill them all" so I'm loving this thought.

This means the command squad is okay, but still not great. You won't be able to take Belial and Command squad to contest anything with enemy troops involved. This is still an issue...You'd have to clear out all the troops in the area or else your opponent wins the objective.

Troops are still paramount unfortunately.

I don't know about you but if I've taken Belial and a command squad I'll be aiming to kill anything in the vicinity anyway. I see being able to also score an objective now and then as simply better than the currently non-scoring version.

*Apart from that one time my tactical squad ran off an objective in turn 7 and cost me the game, but that was my own fault for neglecting to move the fearless librarian into the squad on my turn.

[Prot]

I'm sure the 3 ways will have different rules. In any case, to keep this DA related, It's good that we have Fearless, fast and/or stubborn scoring units to capture all those objectives. If the name of the game is picking up objectives and not straight out killing then the DA codex stands a chance.

My favourite strategy is "my dudes will never run away* and I'll make it difficult for you to kill them all" so I'm loving this thought.

>This means the command squad is okay, but still not great. You won't be able to take Belial and Command squad to contest anything with enemy troops involved. This is still an issue...You'd have to clear out all the troops in the area or else your opponent wins the objective.

Troops are still paramount unfortunately.

I don't know about you but if I've taken Belial and a command squad I'll be aiming to kill anything in the vicinity anyway. I see being able to also score an objective now and then as simply better than the currently non-scoring version.

*Apart from that one time my tactical squad ran off an objective in turn 7 and cost me the game, but that was my own fault for neglecting to move the fearless librarian into the squad on my turn.

I agree with what you're saying, but let's say you're on an objective and you have your nasty deathstar protecting it.... as soon as the guy hits with a squad of ... let's say Ork Boyz, he's stealing those points from you until you kill off every last ork in the mob (or break it).

So let's say it takes me three turns to kill the Ork mob. That's 3 cumulative objective points for the Orks, and Belial is getting none in return. You'll have to make that up elsewhere.

I'm thinking if you're going to be playing like... 'I'm gonna nuke everything off this table and to heck with troops' you might be better off with an unbound force org? I don't know...

Don't forget the third (mentioned by Jarvis) is a small force org and a formation. (Do we have any yet?)

At the end of the day, if you take a traditional force org, as it stands right now, it still looks paramount to fill it with troops if you really want to beat those unbound armies.

All just speculation of course.

[Maraech]

Yeah you will still need plenty of troops but I can see me dropping my Deathwing squad in the landraider and putting my Deathwing Knights back in there now.  1 less troop won't be the end of the world now because the enemy may not have many troops either.  However, if dedicated transport work as scoring if taken with a troop choice I will just continue to run my 5 terminators squads with belial and a landraider at 1750 with everything being troops.

[Dark_Master]

With our special characters we can have the best of both worlds.

 

Home objectives held by Tacticals backed up by PFG toting HQ's with fast bikes and/ or teleporting terminators to stealing his.

 

Also have we seen the D weapon nerf?

 

Invulnerable saves count unless '6' is rolled, PFG's just got even more awesome.

 

DM

[IndigoJack]

Cover saves also work on anything but a 6, so the dark shroud may be worth having around stil.

[Prot]

Cover saves also work on anything but a 6, so the dark shroud may be worth having around stil.

 

 

I'm sorry but have you played against the new IG yet? the deathstrike is their 'I win' button against lists that rely on cover. It's the Apoc template and the strength and AP of a Vindicator shell.....

 

I had one deviate off it's target and end up tagging 15 terminators. My game literally went from, 'I think I've got this game' to 'Okay, I'll just pack up my stuff now.'

 

When I saw the Mawloc swarm list in my neighbourhood I considered putting away my Ravenwing, but with the Deathstrike, (played against it twice now) I'm not sure that the D weapon makes me feel any more secure about it.

 

As I stated earlier, as 6th edition matured having 2+ saves, and cover started meaning less, and less, with Tau on up.  That's just me, and I know people are going to disagree but I see rock solid troops as being key to winning in 7th AND getting them on objectives (that are cumulative) EARLY is huge.... ala Deathwing strike.

 

Ravenwing may not be as resilient but the scout move, + turbo could have my troops sitting on objectives from turn 1 in numerous locations that cannot be contested by the opponent without his troops getting involved.

[IndigoJack]

Other than the template size, what else has changed about the deathstrike since last codex? The last one was easy to counter. It's only a 12/12/10 vehicle, and can't fire turn 1. I don't know how you play DW, but mine are usually in opponents face turn 2 (ditto for RW). I deathstrike missile is just as likely to destroy half their army as it is mine. Also, I'm not sure where in your post you're saying the darkshroud isn't still worthwhile. You mention using cover in the last line, wouldn't a DS only help with that? And just because 30% of the units in the game (a very generous assumption I might add) ignore cover, doesn't mean that spending 80pts on something that improves cover 70% of the time isn't worth it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Don't throw away those darkshrouds yet:

 

 

Ignore Cover is -2 to the targets's normal cover save

[shabbadoo]

Wouldn't surprise me if it is a variable ability, meaning the standard Ignore Cover is -2 to the cover save, Ignore cover (1) is -1, Ignore Cover (3) is -3, etc.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

If thats true, Lucifer, it will make me very happy :)

[SnakeChisler]

The Tau thing with ignores cover / interceptor / skyfire / tank hunter / Monster Hunter / Pulse rifle spam /ignore line of sight / ignores night fighting etc, has completely ruined the game for a lot of players and being able to combine it to pimp other codex as allies is insane.  

 

its not much of a game if all that happens is your drop pods / planes / Terminatrors / outflanking units come in then get wiped off the board without you even rolling a dice

 

In fact the whole Tau thing has lead to a general escalation, the deathstrike missile being just one variant on it I presume its there to blast armies that huddle up but you shouldn't need a weapon like that or have one in a 1500 point game on a 6 x 4 board its simply not appropriate, 12" blasts are Apocalypse and its alright GW going on about expanding the game but all they've succeeded on doing over the last year or so is getting your average player with a bits and bobs army to quit the game.

 

Young kids aren't going to want to spend a couple of turns just taking their models off the table with no interaction

[Tanhausen]

 

Young kids aren't going to want to spend a couple of turns just taking their models off the table with no interaction

 

Neither are older kids...

[SvenONE]

Some objective tidbits started to trickle in.  Very excited over these objectives.  Particularly the ones that are specific, like "hold objective #3".  I think this just added a ton of effectiveness for Belial and some terminator buddies.  Being able to deep strike on an objective, and if the "secured objective" rule holds true, that means the Deathwing can start scoring points (on top of whoever is holding a backfield objective) on turn 1! Oo boy I think this is getting better and better!

[Syphid]

From the latest video on the psychic phase, about focused witchfire:

 

 

If the total number of Warp Charge points harnessed exceeds the Warp Charge cost required to manifest the psychic power, the power is resolved against the model you choose.

 

So if I understand this right, if we say Mind Worm has a Warp Charge cost of 2, and I roll 3 Warp Charge dice and roll 4+ three times, I get to pick the model affected.

 

Also, if you just harness the cost of the power, it is resolved against the nearest model instead of a random one!

[Prot]

 

Don't throw away those darkshrouds yet:

 

 

 

Ignore Cover is -2 to the targets's normal cover save

 

That is good news indeed. The abundance of ignore cover is ridiculous and this gives me some hope to continue with my Ravenwing.

 

 

 

Some objective tidbits started to trickle in.  Very excited over these objectives.  Particularly the ones that are specific, like "hold objective #3".  I think this just added a ton of effectiveness for Belial and some terminator buddies.  Being able to deep strike on an objective, and if the "secured objective" rule holds true, that means the Deathwing can start scoring points (on top of whoever is holding a backfield objective) on turn 1! Oo boy I think this is getting better and better!

 

I don't know about Belial, but if my Ravenwing still hold on their cover save (even a nerfed one) my turboing bikes combined with Hit and Run might be even better. It seems VERY easy to get ahold of AP2 firepower nowadays.

 

The idea of using our 'specialized' force orgs via special characters is all well and good, but it is my understanding that wiping someone off the table still results in a win. So you can collect all the points you want, you gotta figure out a way to stay alive.

 

So knowing what we do, I should ask you guys what you honestly are leaning towards: Are you going for the unbound table wipe or the traditional force org????

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I always sucked at table wiping, and I don't really have any cool gadgets to unbound, so I'll go for the traditional force org.

I do have 6 dreadnoughts but it'll be difficult to wipe out anyone with 6 dreadnoughts and friends. ;)

[SvenONE]

 

 

 

I don't know about Belial, but if my Ravenwing still hold on their cover save (even a nerfed one) my turboing bikes combined with Hit and Run might be even better. It seems VERY easy to get ahold of AP2 firepower nowadays.

 

 

 

The idea of using our 'specialized' force orgs via special characters is all well and good, but it is my understanding that wiping someone off the table still results in a win. So you can collect all the points you want, you gotta figure out a way to stay alive.

 

So knowing what we do, I should ask you guys what you honestly are leaning towards: Are you going for the unbound table wipe or the traditional force org????

 

 

 

 

Well I'm speaking to the increased effectiveness of a Belial as HQ and DW supporting a GW list (I consider a GW-centric list to be 3 or more tactical squads).  Deathwing armies still have to play safe, but Deep Striking Belial and a sizeable terminator force (either a TH/SS command squad or a full 10 man DW squad) into an opponent's backfield near an objective (without mishaping of course) could prove helpful.  Points scored early can be a game changer later on.  Obviously one needs to do that with discretion of course.

 

And again I agree with Lucifer, our codex lacks the gadgets to really run an unbound list, unless you're some sort of crazy person who wants to run 6 LSVs with Drop Pod Assault Mariens and 4 Darktalons.  We're still foggy on the full potential of Battle Forged lists, but the bonuses are without a doubt going to be better than what we have now (which is nothing).

[SnakeChisler]

I can't see unbound being feasible for standard missions and in the club scenario then it will take 2 to play an unbound game

 

Its the sort of thing you'd probably organize with a friend over a set of linked mission campaigns

 

The area competitions have been allowing just about anything but numbers entering have dropped quite markedly so I dunno if there will be a major rethink especially with local clubs running restricted rules & special rules events which get well attended.

[Dark_Master]

Anyone else notice on Faeit 212 that split fire no longer requires a leadership test?

 

Also combined with the resolution of firing by weapon type does it mean you could now pop a transport with a heavy weapon and chew up the content with storm bolters?

 

DM

[SvenONE]

Anyone else notice on Faeit 212 that split fire no longer requires a leadership test?

 

Also combined with the resolution of firing by weapon type does it mean you could now pop a transport with a heavy weapon and chew up the content with storm bolters?

 

DM

 

I have to think that this will surely be answered in a FAQ if it isn't answered directly in the new rule.  I also heard multiple thoughts on the resolution of firing on weapon type.  I thought firing happened simultaneously, but saving throws were done based on the wound pool of each weapon (tossing out any leftover wounds beyond range).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Split fire probably will have a line saying you have to call targets before shooting so you cannot pop the transport and bolter the crew with the same firing squad. If something is too good to be true it's because it probably  isn't true. ;)