How can SoH Perform well

[MiR]

Hi Guys,

 

I have big problems with my SoH. Right now im thinking about switching. But bevore ill do that, maybe someone has an advice for me.

We are playing with 1500P atm and building up until 2500P are reached. But for now 1500P.

My main oponents are Iron Hands and Salamanders. My Problem is, either i dont understand what SoH are about or i suck at playing them.

From the last 10 games i only won 1 and 1 was a draw.

Fast Attack in 30k is a joke, Contemptor Mortis and Sicarian Tanks eat them to fast.

Here the List im playing right now:

 

Master of Signal (Artificer, Power Sword Melter Bomb)

2x Apothecarion

1x rapier LAs Destroyer

1x Terminator Sq (5x Cataphract, 4 power Fists 1 Chain Fist) with LandRaider (ceramit shield)

 

15x Legion tac (Artificer, Vex, Melter Bomb, Power Fist)

15x Legion Tac (same as above)

5x Reaver Atk Sq (Melter, Artificer, Melter Bomb, Power Fist) (there flanking and trying to snatch objectives or weak squads)

 

we have an house rule, that the Centurions can take there Legion RoW, so i play with Rite of Black Reaving (wich Sucks, but is Fluffy).

 

If someone can give me an general overview, how he think SoH sould be played or so im ver happy to listen.

Also i feel SoH nearly dindt get anything. Characters are to weak (exept Horus), or there special Troops are to expensive, Reaver can do anything but nothing right.

 

 

[depthcharge12]

You need to take advantage of your close combat extras. Being able to strike again in cc with your weapon is fantastic. I would recommend an assault squad with power swords (axes and fists don't benefit from merciless fighter rule).

 

The assault squad gets hammer of wrath attacks on the charge if done right, each model counts as two due to the bulky rule, so easier to get merciless fighter, and they can decimate most 3+ units.

 

 

Iron hands are a tough nut to crack, however they lose the +1 toughness in close combat. Focus on getting your guys into cc and you should be golden.

[Ishagu]

Not going to lie - SoH's Legion traits are nothing special. Don't try to focus your strategy around them.

 

Perhaps drop the Raider and one Apothecary and bring in two Sicaran tanks. Very powerful unit :-)

[blackoption]

The key to Black Reaving is mutually supporting squads.  Pair up your squads and have your first squad fix the enemy in place.  Tar pit squads will do this well.  Your second squad charging into that fight will get the rage rules.  Reavers and Assault squads will be the best squads equipped to do this. 

 

You also lose the most effective rule the SoH has when you use unwieldy weapons.  Merciless killers only adds one attack at initiative one per model for the models that have already swung. 

 

I think you may have more luck deep striking your terminators than riding them in a Land raider.  If I were fighting you, My goal would be to knock out your land raider to keep your terminators at bay.  Legion lists do not pull off 40K astartes tactics quite as well, in part because they have more options to counter their post codex contemporaries.

 

If you want to keep your land raider, then alternatively I'd suggest something to allow your tactical squads to keep pace and support those terminators. Cut them down to ten and give them rhinos.  On foot, I can see them being isolated and left behind your main push (between the terminators riding in the land raider and your reavers).

 

Just my 2 cents.

[hisdudeness]

Wut!?! SoH have one of the best traits in the game. Definitely better than one of the 'best' CC Legions ( World Eaters).

 

Like most of them you have to build around it. Depthcharge12 nailed it- Larger squad size/assault squads and getting into CC are key to SoH.

[MiR]

I use so many Power Fists becouse, when i dont do this, i get challenges and with an Power Sword you cant win vs P Axe or Fist and artificer Armor. Also the most large units runs Apos and Fist instakills at least 1-2 per Round.

Raider is Transport yes, but he also has to Lascas, and im short of heayv weapons. Il tryed more Rapiers but you can outrange them, espacely when my infantry whant to come in cc.

For tarpitting and charging in my problem whas, the one time i tryed to get the reavers 2. in cc, that you have to stand 1 round out of fight and doing nothing or i dont get the bonus (rage).

And i dont think the legion trade from the 1. 4 Traitor Legions is it worth . Yes SoH get maybe the best of those, but compared  to Salamander, Iron Hands or Alpha Legion they suck.

Maybe i dont get it. have someone played SoH sucsessfully and can share me an list with a litte bit intel how he played it? Maybe i get a better view from that.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Wut!?! SoH have one of the best traits in the game. Definitely better than one of the 'best' CC Legions ( World Eaters).

 

Like most of them you have to build around it. Depthcharge12 nailed it- Larger squad size/assault squads and getting into CC are key to SoH.

Are you kidding? WE have one of the better traits in 30K.

[Grizwald23]

The SOH r not the best legion in the game however they are far from the worst. I think your biggest problem is not taking advantage of their rules like other people said. I also fell that there is no reason for you to run the rite of war since your army isn't really made to take advantage of it. If I were u the first thing I would do is drop the rite of war and take a different council. I also would give your tac squads the extra ccw besides the bolters because if you think about it if you outnumber your enemy in CC you will get 2 attacks at your initiative and an extra one at I1 and max them out to 20 man. The second thing I would do is give your termies some other weapons besides PF 1 or 2 max should be good but instead I would go for LC's and PW for the rest.also as far as reavers I personally fell that they are better geared towards CC especially if you are just running one squad and should 10 to 15 with jump packs to give them better mobility.

 

Got to go my limited edition extermination set just arrived.

[Reinholt]

My notes:

 

1 - You should always, always, always, always take the extra CCW for your tactical squads. Always.

 

Always.

 

2 - Fists are excessive for tacs and non-termies. I agree with you about the artificer armor problem for sergeants. I also think the appropriate solution for this is the axe, not the fist, if you are also taking melta bombs. Or, if you take the fist, drop the bombs.

 

3 - Rather than 2 squads of 15, which is kind of awkward, I'd take one squad of 20 and one of 10 (so you can transport the latter in a rhino), or 2 of 20, or 2 of 10 with rhinos. The sizing just strikes me as weird. What do you gain with 15 vs. 20 & 10?

 

4 - I don't like the master of signal. My go-to consul for HH is always the librarian. Or, in a traitor SoH force, "lodge master", as it were.

 

5 - I've always thought the reaver attack squad was expensive for what it does.

 

6 - You shouldn't be running a land raider at this points level unless you spam armor. The issue with armor in 30k is this: you either want none of it, or a ton of it. The middle ground is just likely to get your stuff wasted (I suspect you are having this problem with the LR attracting all the heavy fire from the other army).

 

So my suggestions would be to either drop your tacs to 10, put them in rhinos, cut the apothecaries, cut the reavers, and cut the rapiers, and instead add in a bunch of medium to fast armor (preds, sicarians, land speeders, contemptors, etc) to create a force multiplier effect along with the LR, or cut the LR and cut the reavers, bulk out the tac squads to 20 each, and add more foot-based shooting.

[Moonstalker]

I suppose one pertinent question might be, what are the other players in your group fielding?  What is giving you so much trouble?  How long does your land raider live?  What squads do you feel like aren't pulling their weight?

 

Personally, I do not agree with your group's usage of RoW and their houseruling to allow Centurions to take them.  For one, Centurions are already pretty awesome, so piling more special rules on them is unbalancing, and for two, a lot of these RoW balance out their effects by requiring you to take additional HQ's so you have fewer points to throw around on the units you use with the RoW, on top of Praetors already being expensive.  That, and I think RoW's are kinda bad below 2k points.

 

Beyond that, though, I generally agree with some of Reinholt's points.  I don't think fists are excessive for tactical sergeants - they're actually my preferred armament.  But I do see it as a choice between bolter/fist or bolt pistol/axe/meltabombs.  One or the other.  I prefer having the fist around for dealing with MC's and for pulping marines with feel no pain (because they won't get it against the fist :3).

 

I don't agree that you should be reforming your squads into 20 and 10 man squads - 15 and 15 is fine.  For myself, I would prefer to keep them equal to afford me the greatest flexibility with them, and to present no easy or obvious targets to the enemy.  If there are two 15 man squads, which one do you shoot first?  That's the dilemma I always want them thinking about, not "Well I'll shoot the 10 man cause it's easier to kill."

 

My Master of Signal has always served me well, I like him better than the more-expensive Librarian.  That said, I run my Master of Signal in a heavy support squad.  He's got a squad of big guns to buff.  Where are you running yours?  Who/what is he buffing?  What kind of target opportunities/shooting are you giving up when you want to use his bombardment?  If you're running him with the lasdestroyer, then when you want to drop a barrage on an enemy tac squad, you're also wasting your lasdestroyer shot for that turn on killing a marine, not shooting a vehicle...  Maybe a different HQ choice will fit your list better?

 

Fifth, your Reaver squad.  These guys are hamstringing you.  These are basically 5 tactical marines on foot with some extra melee attacks.  You're handicapping yourself with them.  For less than 2/3 the points, you could fill your two tactical squads up to maximum, and you would have twice the bodies that this Reaver squad provides.  In fact, instead of the Reaver squad, you could afford to give both your tactical squads 20 guys AND give one of the squads an extra CCW.  You trade a 5 man squad 10 men spread into your two squads AND they get FNP, 10 more bolters in the fight, better chances at outnumbering the enemy for Merciless Fighters, and you gain like 15 attacks in melee.  Drop this squad, it is terrible and only hurting you.

 

Land Raider/Terminators at this level is up to you, and really is going to depend on how they are doing in your local meta/environment.  If you keep losing the Land Raider turn 1, then your opponents just have too much anti-tank for you to keep fielding that set up.

[hisdudeness]

 

Wut!?! SoH have one of the best traits in the game. Definitely better than one of the 'best' CC Legions ( World Eaters).

 

Like most of them you have to build around it. Depthcharge12 nailed it- Larger squad size/assault squads and getting into CC are key to SoH.

Are you kidding? WE have one of the better traits in 30K.

 

Wut?  WE have the worst (yet fluffiest) trait out of the 12 Legions so far.  It is completely reactionary.  

 

Incarnate Violence: Furious Charge...only after winning a combat.  While nice it's not anywheres near as good as some of the others

Bloodlust: Meh at best...a 1 in 6 chance of not fleeing a combat after losing and gaining Rage is not all that great.  And again...have to win a combat first to gain. 

 

That is really better the SoH, re-roll '1' on reserve rolls, free attack at I1, and not beable to use allied Ld?  The free attack is better then the WE trait alone!!

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

Wut!?! SoH have one of the best traits in the game. Definitely better than one of the 'best' CC Legions ( World Eaters).

Like most of them you have to build around it. Depthcharge12 nailed it- Larger squad size/assault squads and getting into CC are key to SoH.

 

Are you kidding? WE have one of the better traits in 30K.

 

Wut?  WE have the worst (yet fluffiest) trait out of the 12 Legions so far.  It is completely reactionary.  

 

Incarnate Violence: Furious Charge...only after winning a combat.  While nice it's not anywheres near as good as some of the others

Bloodlust: Meh at best...a 1 in 6 chance of not fleeing a combat after losing and gaining Rage is not all that great.  And again...have to win a combat first to gain. 

 

That is really better the SoH, re-roll '1' on reserve rolls, free attack at I1, and not beable to use allied Ld?  The free attack is better then the WE trait alone!!

Yeah you hit it on the nail. I'm glad you did because I always hate bringing it back up. The new rite of war makes them decent but no where near any of the better basic legion traits.

 

 

I advise only taking power swords and lightning claws on all your units to make the most of the merciless fighters rule. If you need AP2 for terminators and such, get combi plasmas or other plasma weaponry

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

 

 

Wut!?! SoH have one of the best traits in the game. Definitely better than one of the 'best' CC Legions ( World Eaters).

Like most of them you have to build around it. Depthcharge12 nailed it- Larger squad size/assault squads and getting into CC are key to SoH.

Are you kidding? WE have one of the better traits in 30K.

 

Wut?  WE have the worst (yet fluffiest) trait out of the 12 Legions so far.  It is completely reactionary.  

 

Incarnate Violence: Furious Charge...only after winning a combat.  While nice it's not anywheres near as good as some of the others

Bloodlust: Meh at best...a 1 in 6 chance of not fleeing a combat after losing and gaining Rage is not all that great.  And again...have to win a combat first to gain. 

 

That is really better the SoH, re-roll '1' on reserve rolls, free attack at I1, and not beable to use allied Ld?  The free attack is better then the WE trait alone!!

Yeah you hit it on the nail. I'm glad you did because I always hate bringing it back up. The new rite of war makes them decent but no where near any of the better basic legion traits.

I advise only taking power swords and lightning claws on all your units to make the most of the merciless fighters rule. If you need AP2 for terminators and such, get combi plasmas or other plasma weaponry

In the updated rules all WE have Rage base and +1 WS in a challenge while keeping Incarnate Violence. They also have a far better Rite of War than SOH do.

[depthcharge12]

Yes they are much better now, Rage is pretty good and hatred with it is even better, but circumstantial. Those benefits, while pretty much for naught if the WE player gets charged, are actually fluffy and I'm glad they tweaked some of the rules and finally gave them +1 WS in a challenge.

 

 

Back to the SoH, it is much better to focus on larger squads and making use of merciless fighter. Mortis dreads and Sicarans are both top tier units, so until you hit higher points (I recommend 2000 points minimum, 2500 is the sweet spot) there isn't much you can do other than changing a few unit choices and making good tactical decisions.

 

 

What do your opponents bring to the games?

[MiR]

I suppose one pertinent question might be, what are the other players in your group fielding?  What is giving you so much trouble?  How long does your land raider live?  What squads do you feel like aren't pulling their weight?

 

Personally, I do not agree with your group's usage of RoW and their houseruling to allow Centurions to take them.  For one, Centurions are already pretty awesome, so piling more special rules on them is unbalancing, and for two, a lot of these RoW balance out their effects by requiring you to take additional HQ's so you have fewer points to throw around on the units you use with the RoW, on top of Praetors already being expensive.  That, and I think RoW's are kinda bad below 2k points.

 

Beyond that, though, I generally agree with some of Reinholt's points.  I don't think fists are excessive for tactical sergeants - they're actually my preferred armament.  But I do see it as a choice between bolter/fist or bolt pistol/axe/meltabombs.  One or the other.  I prefer having the fist around for dealing with MC's and for pulping marines with feel no pain (because they won't get it against the fist :3).

 

I don't agree that you should be reforming your squads into 20 and 10 man squads - 15 and 15 is fine.  For myself, I would prefer to keep them equal to afford me the greatest flexibility with them, and to present no easy or obvious targets to the enemy.  If there are two 15 man squads, which one do you shoot first?  That's the dilemma I always want them thinking about, not "Well I'll shoot the 10 man cause it's easier to kill."

 

My Master of Signal has always served me well, I like him better than the more-expensive Librarian.  That said, I run my Master of Signal in a heavy support squad.  He's got a squad of big guns to buff.  Where are you running yours?  Who/what is he buffing?  What kind of target opportunities/shooting are you giving up when you want to use his bombardment?  If you're running him with the lasdestroyer, then when you want to drop a barrage on an enemy tac squad, you're also wasting your lasdestroyer shot for that turn on killing a marine, not shooting a vehicle...  Maybe a different HQ choice will fit your list better?

 

Fifth, your Reaver squad.  These guys are hamstringing you.  These are basically 5 tactical marines on foot with some extra melee attacks.  You're handicapping yourself with them.  For less than 2/3 the points, you could fill your two tactical squads up to maximum, and you would have twice the bodies that this Reaver squad provides.  In fact, instead of the Reaver squad, you could afford to give both your tactical squads 20 guys AND give one of the squads an extra CCW.  You trade a 5 man squad 10 men spread into your two squads AND they get FNP, 10 more bolters in the fight, better chances at outnumbering the enemy for Merciless Fighters, and you gain like 15 attacks in melee.  Drop this squad, it is terrible and only hurting you.

 

Land Raider/Terminators at this level is up to you, and really is going to depend on how they are doing in your local meta/environment.  If you keep losing the Land Raider turn 1, then your opponents just have too much anti-tank for you to keep fielding that set up.

The greatest Problem for me is that my Troops sometimes get shoot down before they even come in cc. And i alwys feel like i cant do anything against my Oponents heavy Support Units.

The Heavy Support i face are:

- Land Raider Achilles Alpha (with 6 Pyroclasts inside), Sometimes he come up with this "Trollbot" Special HQ from Salamanders, Cassian Drakos, in our games he is atm nearly unkillable, i managed to take 3 HP once but my Terminators where wiprd out the turn after and he regenerate.

 

- Sicarian, Contemptor Mortis, Castellax (Megabolter feels nice in Marines lol), a lot of Dreadnoughts (not so big problem, i killed 3 of them in 2 Rounds of combat with Grenades)

 

 

I also do not aggre with the Rites but i was outnumbered 3-1.

That there is no clear unti my MoS can buff bothers me to, he runs in one of the 15mans an mostly lauches his Strike in the 1. Round when my Oponent is a little bit klumped up is his Starting zone.

And i know my Reaver Squad Sucks, i tryed to give them something else to to, so Flanking them and Snatch an umprotectet or weak unit, 1 Time they saved my Rapier from an Recon Squad.

[Shuggnuggath]

10 reavers with jump packs are only 10 points more than 10 assault marines, and for that they get outflank & an extra attack on their profile.

 

If I was doing 1500 pts SoH I would take the following:

 

HQ: Abaddon

HQ: MoS with powersword, arti armour and MB

T: 15 tacs, pw on champ, MB & vexilla

T: 15 tacs, pw on champ, MB & vexilla

T: 10 jump pack reavers, 3x combi melta, 2x powersword, power fist and arti armour champ

E: 5 Cataphractii terminators, 5x combi melts or plas, 2x chainfist 

E: 3x laser destroyer rapier battery

 

Use SoH rite of war, probably outflank with reavers and DS with termies with Abaddon, depending on the situation.

[Reyner]

Have the SoH rules or rite of war changed in the updates like the WE ones did?

[Sanct]

You could also skip to 2 beefed tactical despoiler squads in spartans, a scorpius, a basic centurion and 2 cheesy outflanking jump moritats. If moritats ain't your thing then you could take outflanking javelins for rear shooting.

[Moonstalker]

The Achilles Alpha and Cassian Dracos are both really tough nuts to crack.  No way you're doing it with just that Rapier Lasdestroyer and the lascannons on your land raider.  At least not really soon, or not without a lot of luck.  I think you need more Rapiers to handle this.  Vs the Achilles Alpha, you'll still get your 2d6 pick the highest for ordnance, and you'll have +1 on the table after its reduction.  Vs Wrough By Vulkan, you've at least got S9 vs AV14, 1 in 6 for a pen and then 50% for an explodes.  Sicaran won't cut it in this situation, since Wrought By Vulkan will prevent rending.  Medusa will get the squishy side armor on Cassian, and would have a good chance of penning the Achilles Alpha with S10 ordnance.  But since you're already in on the Rapier Train, might as well not stop now.  Personally... I would go for setting up flanks on Cassian and avoiding melee.  Force him to keep your Rapier(s) in front arc while you try to get a side shot with your land raider or something.

 

Alternately, maybe find the points to upgrade your Land Raider to a Spartan.  That would give you some more lascannon shots (or lasdestroyer shots if you do the free weapon swap), and if you can shake out the points for a Flare Shield you'll be in even better shape.  If you go this route, you might consider a Primus Medicae or Chaplain in TDA to go with your Terminator Squad.

 

 

10 reavers with jump packs are only 10 points more than 10 assault marines, and for that they get outflank & an extra attack on their profile.

 

That's not saying a lot.  Assault marines are, IMO, incredibly overcosted to begin with.  Also worth pointing out that MiR has been using a minimum size squad, which is the most expensive per-model, and your comparison also includes a minimum size squad (the assault squad will get better value as you add bodies).

[Reinholt]

A few notes:

 

- My preference for the 20/10 approach is that you can get the 10 into a rhino to add some mobility.

 

- Facing that much armor, I would suggest the core flaw with the list above is not nearly enough anti-armor capability. There are many ways to address this. Rapiers would be good. Any tank with more legitimate AA would be good. Heavy weapon squads would be good. You name it, it will probably help.

 

- I agree sergeants should be PF or Axe&Melta. PF&Melta is excess points that should be used elsewhere.

 

- You definitely need to drop the reavers if you are facing that much armor.

[Shuggnuggath]

Thats why I said 10 reavers with jump packs costs 10 points more than 10 assault marines. The extra bodies also cost the same 15 points each as assault marines.

[MiR]

Thanks for the help guys.

We have an Campain Meeting in the next 2 Weeks, ill will see how it goes, but i will cancel our house rule for the RoW, there redicoulus.

You give it for free to Legion with an good rite and force Legions with bads to take it, even when you are reeling to fulfill the requirements.

And i think i will boost my 15mans to 20, add an Spartan (i always liked the Model, and when Horus arrives he need an transport). Maybe more LasDestroyers and cut my C Reaver Sq.

 

For Assault Squads i go with KitWulfen. There very Expensive, but with a few Legions there can be good. Salamanders and Death Guard dont have to check for Terrain, Raven Guard has Furious Charge ect. I like Jumppacks but i dont whant to field them with SoH. Think there greatest Problem is, you kill an Squad and have to Stand (if youre unlucky) one Shooting Phase in Plain Sight of youre Oponent.....then you are Dead. For this you have then payed a few hundret points. Yes you can avoid such placement of youre Squads and try to do something against such things, but it can happen and then you loose to much, becouse of there high cost. If Assault Marines where an Fire and forget Unit i say ok, but they have to be much cheaper for that.

[terminatorAM]

Has anyone used the orbital assault RoW? Seems a null deployment list would play to the SoH strengths especially if Horus was included. Drop pods seem like a better way of getting those ccw toting tactical squads to the front lines.

 

I've haven't played many foot slogging squads before, but it seems like it would take too long to get them where they are needed. Even if they are 20 marine small arm sponges.