Excessus Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Assumptions... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Right. Absolutely no one actually plays mono-Slaanesh or mono-Nurgle armies. Those options, being inferior, don't exist. Yes. Show me where people use multiple slanesh or nurgle heralds to cast spells , and which are not tzeench. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Assumptions... Assumptions how? Assumptions that loyalists will have access? The article outright says as much, with the DA caster summoning a bloodthirster. Assumptions that we'll still have to take at least one aligned spell on each of our marked casters? That seems a pretty safe assumption. It's a codex rule, why would a change of the core book affect it? Assuming that chaos marine psykers won't get a bonus to summoning daemons with this lore? Well, I don't assume that. However, I think it would be wrong to assume they do, as the articles wording really did seem to be calling out daemonic psykers in particular. Or were you responding to someone else? It's really hard to tell with contextless, one word replies. I'm certainly excited about the possibility of summoning daemons with psykers. It sounds hella cool and totally thematic for us. But it does sound equally if not more exciting for chaos players using loyalist armies for counts-as. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 We still don't know how it will work, or who will have access to the malefic/sanctic versions of daemonology or what they are. We have no information! Also, what says that marked sorcerers will be worse to summon daemons? What information did you glean that others did not? Yes they will have one less spell, but the actual summoning, we still don't know how that will work...or exactly how the psychic phase will work in either way... I'm excited about summoning daemons too, my Thousand Sons will be dusted off and taken down from the shelf after over a year up there and be prepared for 7th. Praise to Tzeentch! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Never mind. Reading comprehension check roll was 1. More coffee required before further input. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If only my Aspiring Sorcerers could use any real powers.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 If only my Aspiring Sorcerers could use any real powers.... Lets wait and see what the new edition brings... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 We still don't know how it will work, or who will have access to the malefic/sanctic versions of daemonology or what they are. The Malefic version includes at least one power that allows summoning of a greater daemon, and is available to dark angels, at the very least, and daemonic psykers get some sort of benefit in terms of summoning daemons, so we don't know nothing. We also know how the rules in our codex work, and can be reasonably confident that those rules aren't changing. While they might in some hypothetical FAQ, it's certainly not something to hang any hopes on. Yes they will have one less spell, but the actual summoning, we still don't know how that will work...or exactly how the psychic phase will work in either way... No, we don't, but one less spell is one less chance at whatever the best spells/summons available to the lore are. This makes marked sorcerers worse at daemonology than unmarked or non-chaos sorcerers of the same level in exactly the same way that they're worse at biomancy, telepathy, or any other rulebook lore to which they have access. I'm excited about summoning daemons too, my Thousand Sons will be dusted off and taken down from the shelf after over a year up there and be prepared for 7th. Praise to Tzeentch! Such a shame the marked lore requirement applies to aspiring sorcerers as well. Ugh, I hate that restriction, and the lackluster aligned lores (tzeentch especially) that come with it. The whole ham-fisted approach to the current CSM book (aligned sorcerers MUST take powers from the aligned lores! All your units MUST have champions! All your characters MUST issue and accept challenges!) is super frustrating, and stinks of a laziness on the designers' part. Confound it, Kelly, if you wanted us to take fluffy options, was it so hard to just make them good so that we would want to do so to begin with? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Just saying we don't know enough yet, that "Ezekiel summoning a Bloodthirster" thing might just have been one of their usual weird stuff, there might be harsh restrictions to it, it might have just been for fun they did it... I hold to my position that there are not nearly enough information to make any "serious" guesses yet. We know what is coming, but not how it's coming... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomulusPrime Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Right. Absolutely no one actually plays mono-Slaanesh or mono-Nurgle armies. Those options, being inferior, don't exist. Yes. Show me where people use multiple slanesh or nurgle heralds to cast spells , and which are not tzeench. Yeah...I have a mono-Nurgle army with a ton of Nurgle Heralds all casting Biomancy or even some Nurgle powers, a GUO casting Biomancy, and Nurgle princes casting Biomancy (see a trend?). No non-Nurgle units in sight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 You can make a very valid mono-Nurgle army with tooled-up heralds with FNP in big 20-man plague bearer units, plague drones with upgrades, soul grinders, plague hulks, and flying daemon princes. You'll be able to kill Wraithknights and Riptides with 4+ instant death poisoned weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Could it just be that the Ezekiel example in that article was just a playtest game and by the time the rules hit it wouldn't actually be possible. But the WD writers decided it was too cool a story not to tell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Could be, but it seems unlikely they'd tell a cool story to drum up interest in the new lore and then make that specific cool thing that happened impossible in actual play. If they found it that enjoyable that they had to share it and thought it would make players more inclined to forgive a new core edition after only two years, then that's probably something they would opt to keep. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 We don't know where and how that sidebar is placed in WDW, or in what context... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_contagion Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Could it just be that the Ezekiel example in that article was just a playtest game and by the time the rules hit it wouldn't actually be possible. But the WD writers decided it was too cool a story not to tell. I believe that's quite likely because they said they were play testing, which means they were simply testing the mechanics, so it's a 50/50 as far as anyone can say about some armies like loyalists taking Malefic. I also think the argument about comparing this to what happened with the Knights takes precedence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3682763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
totgeboren Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Even absolute statements about rules in the WD is no reason to see it as 'fact', even if we disregard all the examples of them not knowing rules in battle reports, we also have the Knight and the clear and definite statement of "Will be available to all armies" (though I now realise that was from their WD Facebook feed). The WD exists for one single reason, and that is to sell more models. We know that the meaning of 'all armies' should probably be 'most/many armies'. Seriously, I have a hard time imagining that we will be seeing Ork Weirdboy daemonologists, considering ork psykics don't even work in a way that makes it something like that make sense. On the other hand, Ezekiel isn't know for him trafficking with daemons either. Anyway, all I'm saying is that all armies could mean as little as "Inq, GK, CSM, CD", or as much as everyone except Nids. I mean, with allies all armies would be able to get a Daemonologist by allying in a psyker from one of those four armies I listed, so all armies 'except Nids' would be able to get access to it. You might think that DA getting access to it is a given, but I'm not so sure. The WD guys often 'break the rules' because they think it would be fun to try something out. Maybe one of the staffers, who play DA said "Hey guys, I wanna try out the new daemonolgy stuff but I wanna play using my own army, is that fine?" the others could just have said "Sure thing." The outcome of that fight was certainly memorable, both because of the rather epic ending to the battle and also the rather horrid molesting of the background it portrayed. The WD even said it was a test game, which can mean anything from them testing out the final version of the new rules, to them just testing daemonology using an army that don't normally have access to it. I'm really looking forward to the new rules though, but I really hope CSM psykers get some sort of buff or everyone else (except daemons) get some debuff when trying to cast stuff like that. It would be nice if CSM Sorcerers were the best mortal maleficarum users. If we don't we'll instead be the worst if we want to use marks. Though, the reroll from familiars could put CSM Sorcerers head-and-shoulders above the rest if Daemonolgy is really risky. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3683121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 It could even have been testing how uncomfortable it would feel to a)pull such a stunt and b) face such a violation. As part of determining which armies should include daemonology and which should not. It's like the way some people are losing their minds over the potential lists from unbound without having seen how games will be won. I suspect that you will need a fairly typical level of variety to have a hope of winning, even if you *can* cram your entire points with bale drakes Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3683234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Why would they playtest Daemonology with an army that won't have Daemonology? That playtest wouldn't tell them anything useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3683250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 To decide which armies should get it, it's new, they need to decide who gets to take it, therefore test it. I'd argue for finally allowing khornate psykers because summoning daemons is in keeping without violating the whole 'no magic' thing. You'd still have to test how it worked. Makes note sense than orks or eldar summoning daemons. If you were trying to decide if imperial marines should get it the best way is to give it to them and see what happens, if it works let them keep it, if not, don't give them access. Simple really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3683265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Could it just be that the Ezekiel example in that article was just a playtest game and by the time the rules hit it wouldn't actually be possible. But the WD writers decided it was too cool a story not to tell. Could be, but it seems unlikely they'd tell a cool story to drum up interest in the new lore and then make that specific cool thing that happened impossible in actual play. If they found it that enjoyable that they had to share it and thought it would make players more inclined to forgive a new core edition after only two years, then that's probably something they would opt to keep. How about this: when was the last time you read a battle report in the WD where they actually followed all the rules? They are notorious for fielding units that are not allowed by the very codex that author supposedly just wrote. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3683884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uprising Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Guys, why don't we wait and see how this plays out. Remember the rumors for the chaos dex as well as the crimson slaughter dex, they both surpass the rumors (good and bad, mostly bad). Lets just wait and see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3683891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Could be, but it seems unlikely they'd tell a cool story to drum up interest in the new lore and then make that specific cool thing that happened impossible in actual play. If they found it that enjoyable that they had to share it and thought it would make players more inclined to forgive a new core edition after only two years, then that's probably something they would opt to keep. I have read many battle reports in WD where they did not even adhere to the force organization charts, they just took whatever they felt like. They would also muck up rules, and add variations to things because they thought it was fun. Point is, yeah, we do not know enough to make a full on bitch fest. Though I could just be tired of reading your constant spam of complaints over the last year. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3683935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Apparently we're not allowed to have fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3684035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 im actually looking forward to it. I will complain for a day (maybe a week) if it just so happens that other armies then chaos gets acces. But that will be once i know. No point worrying now. However, 2 things. Dont forget there was also a rumour, that battle brothers would dissapear, which would also limit the amount of allies people take, and what units they take from those allies. Also, i think that IF inquisitors get acces, (which i can understand), i think they should also be able to allie with chaos. You know, manipulating a chaos warband into fighting another chaos warband like style. There are plenty of inquisitors gone rogue in fluff, so no real reason to exclude chaos then. But again, no real point complaining about stuff that hasnt even happened yet. For now, all i can think about are the awesome possibilities these rumours offer :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3684070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Smurfalypse, on 11 May 2014 - 23:13, said: I have read many battle reports in WD where they did not even adhere to the force organization charts, they just took whatever they felt like. They would also muck up rules, and add variations to things because they thought it was fun. Point is, yeah, we do not know enough to make a full on ***** fest. Though I could just be tired of reading your constant spam of complaints over the last year. I'm not here to whine and complain, I'm just advising people not to get their hopes up for thousand sons mastering this new psychic lore, because in all likelihood the aspiring sorcerers won't have access at all, and tzeentch sorcerers will likely have less access than unmarked sorcerers to the same degree that they have reduced access to biomancy or telepathy today. We're looking at new core rules, not a new codex. Seems to me you're trying to rain on my parade. Here I am excited that counts as CSM armies using loyalist books might be able to access actual daemons, and you're telling me "hey, even though they specifically talked about loyalists summoning daemons as something cool they thought would sell people on the new edition, that doesn't mean they're actually going to let loyalists summon daemons in the new edition!". As for "constant spam of complaints" well... Sorry I spit in your coffee. And here I thought I'd been doing a decent job of posting positive comments more than negative ones of late, but oh well. In the end there's just no fighting who I am. tUMUt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290771-daemonology/page/3/#findComment-3684316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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