Daemonology

[Valaskjalf]

Yeah Im not super optimistic either, I feel a curve ball coming CSM's way mostly because of  "...for if you are not Daemonspawn yourself..." - That's a pretty clear indication that it's not necessarily time for CSM players to rejoice in thinking their Sorcerers have suddenly climbed a few tiers in casting these new powers. The only psyker in our army that qualifies as "Daemon", without allying in Daemons, is a Crimson Slaughter Sorcerer with the Artefact which makes the bearer a Daemon. So that's a total of one Sorcerer. The rest of our guys will most likely have to rely on their Spell Familiars and Im pretty sure GW thinks thats enough of a Boon for CSM over other Armies.

All I know is, I hope the Malefic disciple isn't as wide-spread as the rumours lead us to believe and the access to "Daemonology" for Imperials/Xenos are mostly limited to Sanctic. Despite the Ezekiel example possibly proving this wrong, I certainly hope they were just mucking around with the new mechanics.

[Sception]

Very interesting.

 

On the one hand, the primaris power is extremely difficult to cast, since it looks to be mastery level 3.  Not sure yet if casters below level 3 will even be able to cast it - will there be a limit on dice you can throw?  If there is a limit equal to your mastery level (as some have guessed), then you'll be throwing 3 (or four, with ahriman) dice and needing 3x 4+ to succeed.  Ouch!  then the opponent will get to throw however many of his own dice, and even one six will dispel it.

 

That isn't a complaint, mind, just an observation.  If you successfully cast it even just once or twice in the game it could be a huge swing.  I don't think cursed ground will discourage loyalists from rolling on this chart, as if they roll it they can swap for the primaris which they'll want anyway.

 

What might discouraged loyalists is the monetary investment - daemon codex, plus 10 lesser daemons, plus 3 elites/cav, plus a bloodthirster, if you want to have a hope of casting any of the spells you might get even once; more then that if you want to be able to cast them multiple times (which might not be an option even, depending on how conjurations work - since their effects remain in play, they might work like remains in play spells in fantasy - note this is just speculation).  What I'm not seeing here is any risk of the conjuration going rogue and attacking your own guys as I thought was implied by the WD sidebar, but that may be in the rules for conjurations still.

 

Instead, loyalists might opt for the anti-daemons lore, and having a whole lore that just hates on our buddies might be a pain.

 

Even so, I do hope that the anti-daemon lore and all the other lores for that matter are at least as strong as the malefic lore, so that we don't see daemons spammed everywhere by everyone.

 

 

As for what this allows - I'm excited by the possibility of running CSM primary with guard or renegade guard allies and still being able to run daemons via psychic powers.  Or, if renegade guard are terrible (fingers crossed, but we'll see), or don't get to be battle brothers with CSMs, then I'm excited by the possibility of running Loyalists with allied regular guard and summoned daemons using counts-as.

[Hellios]

People who should have access to the Daemon lore... CSM, Daemons, IG, Inquisition (not GK)... Others shouldn't... That is my opinion.

 

As for how powerful everything should be... I don't know... I need to see all the rules, and all the FAQs...

[Valaskjalf]

Another thing is how Be'Lakor will operate...since according to his entry he only knows Telepathy, he will be one Psyker who possibly won't have any access to Daemonology. The Primaris being ML3 also tosses up another question - If you have a ML3 Psyker he will need all his WC for that one power, so that leaves Biomancy for your ML2 / ML1 guys. 

[daboarder]

warpcharge is now a pool.

 

D6+ sum of caster levels 

 

for the whole army

[Excessus]

warpcharge is now a pool.

 

D6+ sum of caster levels 

 

for the whole army

Where is this fact shown?

[MaliGn]

Nothing factual, just rumoured to be that in the first link on page 4.

[Excessus]

Nothing factual, just rumoured to be that in the first link on page 4.

Yup, rumours...so we still know nothing yet about how the psychic phase will work.

 

But I have to say, the Malefic powers looks nice in a vacuum. Either way, I don't really care how the rules turn out, I'll be dusting off my TS anyway... :)

[Dragonlover]

I thought the D6➕ Warp Charge pool was from this weeks White Dwarf?

 

Dragonlover

[incinerator950]

I just hope we can counter Demonspam with Chaos without having to resort to spamming demons.  I already have zero desire to pay into allying demons in 6th, and I don't want to have a bandwagon that just reinforces spending more money because of the impact of Demonbombing potentially making another huge impact. 

I will say the rumor of using a Sorc to finally do what the Dimensional Key and a Relay Aegis combined is actually really interesting.  Simply put, if this rumor is true, and potentially (unlikely) they errata our character sorcs to do it, then I would love for Huron to be able to drop a hammer with deep striking units, while bringing in an infiltrating spear thrust with a CSM body/Raptor strike.  Makes for a great change to want to try an Alpha Legion group.

[daboarder]

I thought the D6➕ Warp Charge pool was from this weeks White Dwarf?

 

Dragonlover

It is.

 

so yes. FACT!

[Excessus]

 

I thought the D6➕ Warp Charge pool was from this weeks White Dwarf?

 

Dragonlover

It is.

 

so yes. FACT!

I haven't seen a picture of that. So for me it's still hearsay...

[EricBasser]

I hear Fantasy has a cap on the #+D6 for charges. I wonder if that will carry over.

 

As someone who started out with Daemons, then started CSM, I am excited. I've got plenty of Flamers and Screamers that I can now summon depending on the situation, and no scatter if the unearth is on. Think Psychic Phase is before shooting phase? If so, then drop and flame, or drop and slashing attack.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Don't forget that Deamonology doesn't come in one form, but two, the malefic side we saw on the scan, and th Sanctic side wich we did not see yet.

 

So when they say on the WD that everyone( except nids) can take Deamonology, there is a good chances that you will be limited to one of the two sub-disciplines.

 

Loyalists, Eldars and stuff Sanctic Deamonology, Chaos and stuff malefic.

 

Sanctic been focused on Exorcisme and fighting Deamons and stuff.

 

The case of Ezekiel turning into a BT in the WD was said to be just for play testing purposes, where they "forged the narrative", by having attempting him to cast a spell, failed it and got possesed by a GD in turn.

 

So it doesn't clairly say that even loyalist armies could summon and use deamons.

[HsojVvad]

Yeah, I sincerely hope there is some slap for summoning daemons for loyalist armies. But on the plus side, which loyalist armies can get as many psykers in as Chaos?

Wait....

Crap....

oh no....

Grey Knights....

I hate those guys. Seriously though if Grey Knights can summon daemons tables will be flipped. Tables the size of Titans, made from trees older than the Roman Empire, and those tables will land squarely on GW HQ, rage will cast that 3000 year old table those 50 or so miles needed to crush that puny design team...

Also, Eldar better not be able to, that would be a level of insane unheard of.

Look at the bright side. Tyranids can't cast it. At least it's keeping to the fluff.

Seriously though, will this mean people will have to buy the Chaos Daemon codex now in order to use these units? Why would GW want people to buy CD minis now? Maybe on the off chance people will start a CD army in Fantasy now, that they have the minis?

So if people who want to use these rules, that would mean another book they have to carry now to games? At this rate, either go digital, or carry a forklift with you. :P

[Plague Angel]

 

 

I thought the D6➕ Warp Charge pool was from this weeks White Dwarf?

 

Dragonlover

It is.

 

so yes. FACT!

I haven't seen a picture of that. So for me it's still hearsay...

 

Well here you go.

[Valaskjalf]

So I wonder if CD/CSM would at all have access to Sanctic Daemonology...if it's rumoured to be the "inverse" of Malefic, then it's somewhat counter intuitive for them to gain access to it. If that's the case, then even more reason for non-Chaos armies to not have access to Malefic.

[the jeske]

Only they do . Sanct to be on the same lvl as malific , would either have to be the same but renamed[summons units] or super utility. Something like divination/biomancy powers [buffing stuff] , while at the same time the same spells usef offensivly debuff and hurt units a lot.

[DoomulusPrime]

So I wonder if CD/CSM would at all have access to Sanctic Daemonology...if it's rumoured to be the "inverse" of Malefic, then it's somewhat counter intuitive for them to gain access to it. If that's the case, then even more reason for non-Chaos armies to not have access to Malefic.

Honestly, I'd think (at least a with Daemons) that if they have knowledge of how to summon and empower daemons to this realm, they'd have knowledge of how to banish or weaken them too...assuming Sanctic is counter-spells and dispelling magic, instead of faith/prayers to the Emperor/Khaine/Asuryan/Space Pope.

[Valaskjalf]

 

So I wonder if CD/CSM would at all have access to Sanctic Daemonology...if it's rumoured to be the "inverse" of Malefic, then it's somewhat counter intuitive for them to gain access to it. If that's the case, then even more reason for non-Chaos armies to not have access to Malefic.

Honestly, I'd think (at least a with Daemons) that if they have knowledge of how to summon and empower daemons to this realm, they'd have knowledge of how to banish or weaken them too...assuming Sanctic is counter-spells and dispelling magic, instead of faith/prayers to the Emperor/Khaine/Asuryan/Space Pope.

Fair enough, but does this necessarily mean that CSM/CD should only have access to Malefic or would they find any benefit from casting the counters to that (whatever they may be)

[DoomulusPrime]

 

 

 

So I wonder if CD/CSM would at all have access to Sanctic Daemonology...if it's rumoured to be the "inverse" of Malefic, then it's somewhat counter intuitive for them to gain access to it. If that's the case, then even more reason for non-Chaos armies to not have access to Malefic.

 

Honestly, I'd think (at least a with Daemons) that if they have knowledge of how to summon and empower daemons to this realm, they'd have knowledge of how to banish or weaken them too...assuming Sanctic is counter-spells and dispelling magic, instead of faith/prayers to the Emperor/Khaine/Asuryan/Space Pope.

Fair enough, but does this necessarily mean that CSM/CD should only have access to Malefic or would they find any benefit from casting the counters to that (whatever they may be)

Yeah, I guess I'm thinking more fluff-wise. When it comes to crunch it would probably be best to limit chaos to Malefic and others (Imperium/CW Eldar) to Sanctic.

[daveNYC]

Thing with Sanctic Daemonology, if balanced with Malefic Daemonology (which has moar daemons as it's primaris, and Eat Bloodthirster as one of the randoms), it'd probably end up being pretty powerful against daemons.  Just as an abstract concept, I dislike the idea of an entire school of psyker powers specifically designed to counter one specific army.  There's the risk of allowing armies pick a utility discipline when facing xenos or a marine type army, and pick the 'kill your army' discipline when facing daemons.  

 

It might be fluffy, but it'd be damn hard to balance, and potentially game breakingly unfair to daemon players.

 

It's pretty easy to imagine how messed up things could get if you put together similarly faction targeted powers into various disciplines.  AP3 and a remove ATKSNF power vs. Marines or Ignore Lance or Haywire vs. Eldar/DE.  Fluffy daemonology might be very flavorful, but anti-faction magic is a big old can of worms.

[Valaskjalf]

Thing with Sanctic Daemonology, if balanced with Malefic Daemonology (which has moar daemons as it's primaris, and Eat Bloodthirster as one of the randoms), it'd probably end up being pretty powerful against daemons.  Just as an abstract concept, I dislike the idea of an entire school of psyker powers specifically designed to counter one specific army.  There's the risk of allowing armies pick a utility discipline when facing xenos or a marine type army, and pick the 'kill your army' discipline when facing daemons.  

 

It might be fluffy, but it'd be damn hard to balance, and potentially game breakingly unfair to daemon players.

 

It's pretty easy to imagine how messed up things could get if you put together similarly faction targeted powers into various disciplines.  AP3 and a remove ATKSNF power vs. Marines or Ignore Lance or Haywire vs. Eldar/DE.  Fluffy daemonology might be very flavorful, but anti-faction magic is a big old can of worms.

Hopefully there is something in Sanctic which CD/CSM can also use to their benefit to minimize that counter. I mean, from the looks of things Imperials won't only be able to counter Daemons with Sanctic, but also by summoning them AGAINST Daemons. Double whammy. "Oh I see you brought your 300pt Lord of Change, here's one right back at you!"

[DoomulusPrime]

Thing with Sanctic Daemonology, if balanced with Malefic Daemonology (which has moar daemons as it's primaris, and Eat Bloodthirster as one of the randoms), it'd probably end up being pretty powerful against daemons.  Just as an abstract concept, I dislike the idea of an entire school of psyker powers specifically designed to counter one specific army.  There's the risk of allowing armies pick a utility discipline when facing xenos or a marine type army, and pick the 'kill your army' discipline when facing daemons.  

 

It might be fluffy, but it'd be damn hard to balance, and potentially game breakingly unfair to daemon players.

 

It's pretty easy to imagine how messed up things could get if you put together similarly faction targeted powers into various disciplines.  AP3 and a remove ATKSNF power vs. Marines or Ignore Lance or Haywire vs. Eldar/DE.  Fluffy daemonology might be very flavorful, but anti-faction magic is a big old can of worms.

 

Very true. As a Daemons player, I have a lot of reason to fear this kind of spell tree. One thing in my favor though, even my mono-Nurgle army would have 3-4 lvl 3 psykers, and several NHeralds with lvl 1, so I'm looking at ~15 +D6 (so between 16 & 21) dispel dice. I should still be in a very strong position for shouting "NO!" when my opponent attempts to cast anything.

[the jeske]

the problem is your chosing a psy power , before your opponent makes his list . So unless you see him days before stocking up on demon models , your not going to know if he brings demons or not . that is why sanct , if it is just counter demon school, will not see much use . Or at least won't see much use unless half of all armies played start using demons.And am not saying they won't late turn objecitve grab coupled with summoning of demons on enemy objective could be very powerful .

 

 

Why take nurgle heralds , when you can take tzeench ones with the Ld buff and the access to divination. 4 heralds or 6-7 [if unbound] all lvl 2-3 could do a lot of summoning , specialy considering a kairos or a belfegor in the list .