Daemonology

[Hellios]

the problem is your chosing a psy power , before your opponent makes his list . So unless you see him days before stocking up on demon models , your not going to know if he brings demons or not . that is why sanct , if it is just counter demon school, will not see much use . Or at least won't see much use unless half of all armies played start using demons.And am not saying they won't late turn objecitve grab coupled with summoning of demons on enemy objective could be very powerful .

 

 

Why take nurgle heralds , when you can take tzeench ones with the Ld buff and the access to divination. 4 heralds or 6-7 [if unbound] all lvl 2-3 could do a lot of summoning , specialy considering a kairos or a belfegor in the list .

 

Hey, if we run Daemons.. we just have to avoid playing more than once at the same club? Tournaments... If I know who I'm going to be playing against... and I haven't seen these powers. Do they just act as a counter to summoning daemons, or does it hurt daemons in general/have general debuff. For example, a power might remove invulnerable saves for a turn. Is that Anti-daemon? Yes! Would be people find it useful against other armies? Yes. Anyway... It really depends on what powers different armies have access to. What the other spell tables are like.

[EricBasser]

Latest leaks of WD tell of picking powers from disiplines. If you only pick one disipline, you get the primarius power without exchanging for it. So if you roll all powers on divination, you get prescience without using a roll.

 

Pics are up at Daemoms 40k Blog.

[zyl-]

 

Right.

 

Absolutely no one actually plays mono-Slaanesh or mono-Nurgle armies. Those options, being inferior, don't exist.

Yes. Show me where people use multiple slanesh or nurgle heralds to cast spells , and which are not tzeench.

I'm going to blame language barrier for this one. Most people would change their forum names after a burn that hard, but to add a reply like this truely means the point was missed.

 

Back to the topic somewhat, if the entire thing is based on a pool, the primaris tzeentch power wouldn't matter as much on 1ksons' aspiring sorceror or other compelled power situations from marks. Of course the weak powers would still be present, but the net result on the pool of dice would be a positive. Still, the exact same conclusion as always will be drawn when we notice how vastly superior daemons are at making a large pool of warp power coupled with more useful powers. Why not just play daemons?

[daboarder]

Latest leaks of WD tell of picking powers from disiplines. If you only pick one disipline, you get the primarius power without exchanging for it. So if you roll all powers on divination, you get prescience without using a roll.

 

Pics are up at Daemoms 40k Blog.

 

 

Of course, they needed to put another boot into chaos marines, see they didnt think the "must take one, can only take half" was enough of a penalty for marked sorcerers, not when they get access to all those awesome spells

[RolandTHTG]

 

Latest leaks of WD tell of picking powers from disiplines. If you only pick one disipline, you get the primarius power without exchanging for it. So if you roll all powers on divination, you get prescience without using a roll.

 

Pics are up at Daemoms 40k Blog.

 

 

Of course, they needed to put another boot into chaos marines, see they didnt think the "must take one, can only take half" was enough of a penalty for marked sorcerers, not when they get access to all those awesome spells

Just means even more unmarked sorcerers....

 

Pics at: http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/new-psychic-info.html

[daboarder]

 

 

Latest leaks of WD tell of picking powers from disiplines. If you only pick one disipline, you get the primarius power without exchanging for it. So if you roll all powers on divination, you get prescience without using a roll.

 

Pics are up at Daemoms 40k Blog.

 

 

Of course, they needed to put another boot into chaos marines, see they didnt think the "must take one, can only take half" was enough of a penalty for marked sorcerers, not when they get access to all those awesome spells

Just means even more unmarked sorcerers....

 

Pics at: http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/new-psychic-info.html

.....you say that like its a good thing

[incinerator950]

Only they do . Sanct to be on the same lvl as malific , would either have to be the same but renamed[summons units] or super utility. Something like divination/biomancy powers [buffing stuff] , while at the same time the same spells usef offensivly debuff and hurt units a lot.

 

Maybe they're mono-nurgle and want to play a dedicated army?  Maybe because they just feel like it without having to revolve around minmaxing their every choice?

[RolandTHTG]

 

 

 

Latest leaks of WD tell of picking powers from disiplines. If you only pick one disipline, you get the primarius power without exchanging for it. So if you roll all powers on divination, you get prescience without using a roll.

 

Pics are up at Daemoms 40k Blog.

 

 

Of course, they needed to put another boot into chaos marines, see they didnt think the "must take one, can only take half" was enough of a penalty for marked sorcerers, not when they get access to all those awesome spells

Just means even more unmarked sorcerers....

 

Pics at: http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/new-psychic-info.html

.....you say that like its a good thing

... not really.

 

I run one occasionally, but I've actually been converting up a slaanesh one to try out. Looks like he'll only be psuedo slaanesh.

[Sception]

Wow, and here I was expecting them to simply fail to fix marked psychers, not kick them while they're down.

 

That's disappointing, though I'm less annoyed about that than I am excited about summoning daemons, so oh, well. My sorc was going to be undivided, anyway.

 

 

So the penalty to malefic is any doubles is a perils? I'm guessing that daemon casters will get to ignore that, and that will be their bonus to it? While mortal tzeentch falls further and further behind, the daemonic servants of tzeentch keep getting better. Horrors bringing extra dice, and sacrificing 10ish point models to summon heralds and lords of change so your psychic phase only gets stronger as the game goes on? Lords of change and tzeentch princes with significantly reduced risk of grounding - something all fmcs will benefit from, but that tzeentch flying circus is especially primed to take advantage of? Screamer star no longer fearing D weapons, as they only ignore inv on a 6? Yikes, indeed.

 

At least we know you can definitely roll more dice than your mastery level. Otherwise the 3 cost summoning spells would be pretty hard to pull off.

[incinerator950]

GW fixing things is like EA delivering a product without breaking something.

[the jeske]

The most fun thing for me is that I remember when 3ed or 4th ed WFB came , and in an article I was told that the design team didn't like how demons were "free" and other monsters weren't , and how that created imbalanced between demons and "cool" monsters like dragons [and how people were focusing on only taking demons]. Which in the end lead to creation of the emperor dragon profile and when that wasn't enough to giving dragons options to be casters themselfs[anyone remembers how horrible OP an emp dragon was with jade magic]. It realy does feel for me like am back again in the late 80s and starting to play .

 

 

Maybe they're mono-nurgle and want to play a dedicated army?  Maybe
because they just feel like it without having to revolve around
minmaxing their every choice?

There is no mono nurgle. that is one thing and the other is , what stops them from using nurgle herald models for tzeench heralds and summoning PBs [although horrors are kind of a better then good with desacrated ground].

[Hellrender]

Lol. So marked sorceres cant ever take an additional power, since you cant even go all Tzeentch either (or something). Hilarious. Altough, Typhus might get an extra power? he gets both from nurgle, so in theory he should get the primaris in addition.

 

I just really hope that Chaos gets bonuses to casting Demonology spells. They otherwise look rather dangerous to cast. But considering the kick to marked sorcerers, i bet it will be just as hard for a Chaos Sorcerer as for a Librarian to cast Demonlogy spells.

[the jeske]

We have familiars that is already a huge bonus to cast anything .

 

 

Hey, if we run Daemons.. we just have to avoid playing more than once at
the same club? Tournaments... If I know who I'm going to be playing
against... and I haven't seen these powers. Do they just act as a
counter to summoning daemons, or does it hurt daemons in general/have
general debuff. For example, a power might remove invulnerable saves for
a turn. Is that Anti-daemon? Yes! Would be people find it useful
against other armies? Yes. Anyway... It really depends on what powers
different armies have access to. What the other spell tables are like.

only it is not going to be no invs. it is going to be something like -1to inv or re-roll invs and even if was no invs , it would still pale in the face of a psyker heavy army being able to spawn 1-2 troop units [assuming half gets stoped/misscast etc] on objectives any turn. The money cost could be huge[if someone wants to use GW demon models and not something like cheapo zombis] , but utility is huge. All in all as unbalanced as it is I like 7th as far testing games goes . The games maybe higher points and  is totaly not \ beginer friendly  [try explain to a new guy , who likes "space marines" while your unbound tau army is mass summoning demons from a D weapon armed fortification full of inqusitors] , but it is good for nids and it is good for chaos[well demons , but it is as close as we can get to being good]. The only question now is how  future formations are going to mess with the game .

[totgeboren]

I'm just preparing for the big "In your face!" from GW when we find out that our Sorcerers don't count as daemonkin nor do they get any free Primaris from anything if we take a Mark (since we are then forced to take powers from two diciplines, even if we don't want to).

 

However, if we do get to count as daemonkin with a mark (perhaps without even? :o), that might balance out how powerful malefic powers seem to be. But if any double is Perils, and most powers are warp charge 3 I don't see any non-daemonkin psyker managing to cast more than three times before dying.

 

I mean, you want to throw at least 5 dice into a warp charge 3 power, but the odds of rolling one or more doubles is pretty huge with that amount of dice, and you still only have a 50/50 chance of getting the power off, not counting DtW which your opponent will have a good chance of pulling off.

 

To be honest, even though Daemonology seems pretty cool, I think lots of warp charge 1 powers will be much more useful. It's just too hard to cast daemonlogy and to easy to nullify as far as I can tell. I mean, just 3 dice into DtW gives you a 42% chance of nullifying, and considering how expensive in warp charge the summoning Malefic powers are, your opponent will only need to save dice to deny maybe two powers tops. And if having a psyker makes Denying easier even if the psyker is not the target, well then it's more or less pointless even trying to cast Malefic powers.

 

Good news though, if my analysis turns out to be fairly accurate, we wont be facing Eldar and Ultramarine Daemon summoners on a regular basis.

[EricBasser]

FMC also take grounding tests at the end of the phase for losing one or more wounds. So Vector Strikes and Perils will cause grounding tests now.

 

Challenges. Wounds carry over to squad. So Black Mace Prince gets challenged, the wounds spill out past that pesky sergeant.

 

For Deamonology, sounds like any doubles perils. Out of 6 dice, you would be 1,2,3,4,5,6 to be safe.

[RapatoR]

I really, really like that GW made chaos a tempting choice. It will be nice to see how many of the so called loyalists will summon daemons for their aid in battle.

[Sception]

I'm just preparing for the big "In your face!" from GW when we find out that our Sorcerers don't count as daemonkin nor do they get any free Primaris from anything if we take a Mark (since we are then forced to take powers from two diciplines, even if we don't want to).

What do you mean preparing for? Sorcerers aren't daemons (except for crimson sons possesed sorcerers, hrmmm), and marked sorcerers are required to take powers from multiple disciplines if they have more than a single masters level. We aren't waiting for the shoe to drop, it's already on the ground. At this point we can only hope that gw turns around and picks it up by removing the restriction on marked psycher power choice via eratta.

[DoomulusPrime]

 

I'm just preparing for the big "In your face!" from GW when we find out that our Sorcerers don't count as daemonkin nor do they get any free Primaris from anything if we take a Mark (since we are then forced to take powers from two diciplines, even if we don't want to).

What do you mean preparing for? Sorcerers aren't daemons (except for crimson sons possesed sorcerers, hrmmm), and marked sorcerers are required to take powers from multiple disciplines if they have more than a single masters level. We aren't waiting for the shoe to drop, it's already on the ground. At this point we can only hope that gw turns around and picks it up by removing the restriction on marked psycher power choice via eratta.

Not that I think it's even remotely likely, but GW could change the way Marked psykers work when they release the FAQs for 7th....a boy can dream, can't he?

[totgeboren]

 

What do you mean preparing for? Sorcerers aren't daemons (except for crimson sons possesed sorcerers, hrmmm), and marked sorcerers are required to take powers from multiple disciplines if they have more than a single masters level. We aren't waiting for the shoe to drop, it's already on the ground. At this point we can only hope that gw turns around and picks it up by removing the restriction on marked psycher power choice via eratta.

 

Well, we will get a 7ed update FAQ where they could for example state that "For the purposed of determining what primaris powers are available, a Sorcerer with a Mark is considered to have chosen powers from the discipline it has the majority of it's powers from, provided it only uses one other discipline apart from the discipline of its Mark. In the case of a tie, the player gets to chose."

 

Or Daemonkin =/= Daemon. Daemonkin could be models with the Daemon of X and Mark of X. Or simple models chosen from the CSM and CD codices. I'm hoping for the last option, though that will make CSM without a mark the best mortal Daemonologists.

 

There are many things they could do that would make us less singled out, and that do not require errata/rewriting the codex.

[MaliGn]

It could just change to be a restriction on which daemons can be summoned, eg no plaugebearers summoned by tzeentchian sorcerers. That and scrapping the enforced powers would work.

[incinerator950]

Well, Undivided (all gods, beyond the four) should be the best summoners and practitioners of Demonolgy, namely as a art like the Word Bearers.  Tzeentch aligned should be the best in terms of spellrite and sorcery, which can be considered encompassing but not specializing in it over magic missile casters like the Thousand Sons. 

GW probably doesn't care so long as it nets them more money for people buying Demons or Protection/wards/runes/inquisitor/priest models. 

[Iron_Within]

It's clear that Codex: Chaos Space Marines was not written with 7th in mind (which part of me is surprised about considering it's been what? Two years since release?). From those WD pics it's clear that the rumour about only being able to use mastery level+1 dice is complete rubbish. So based upon current rumours here's what understand to be the winners for Chaos Space Marines:

 

Spell Familiar - be hopeful they don't change this, but currently Spell Familiars are fantastic. This is especially useful for those budding Daemonologists who want to avoid dying really quickly.

Thousand Sons - I cannot believe I'm saying this but yes, TS seem to have a boost in that they have a utility now - generating Warp Dice. Okay it's not amazing, but, it's something. I would personally rather they have a roll on Daemonology so I can sacrifice every Aspiring Sorcerer to Tzeentch in one or two turns and get a whole daemon army turn up but hey ho.

 

er... actually that's it. I think CSM with IG will work well together get a boost if you can take a butt load of Wyrdvane Psykers that just summons daemons from a Chimera. Then again.... they could do that just as well without CSM's.... le *sigh, Imperial Guard: More Chaos than Chaos Space Marines....

[Valaskjalf]

It's clear that Codex: Chaos Space Marines was not written with 7th in mind (which part of me is surprised about considering it's been what? Two years since release?). From those WD pics it's clear that the rumour about only being able to use mastery level+1 dice is complete rubbish. So based upon current rumours here's what understand to be the winners for Chaos Space Marines:

 

Spell Familiar - be hopeful they don't change this, but currently Spell Familiars are fantastic. This is especially useful for those budding Daemonologists who want to avoid dying really quickly.

Thousand Sons - I cannot believe I'm saying this but yes, TS seem to have a boost in that they have a utility now - generating Warp Dice. Okay it's not amazing, but, it's something. I would personally rather they have a roll on Daemonology so I can sacrifice every Aspiring Sorcerer to Tzeentch in one or two turns and get a whole daemon army turn up but hey ho.

 

er... actually that's it. I think CSM with IG will work well together get a boost if you can take a butt load of Wyrdvane Psykers that just summons daemons from a Chimera. Then again.... they could do that just as well without CSM's.... le *sigh, Imperial Guard: More Chaos than Chaos Space Marines....

 

This makes me even more excited about the up and coming IA13 as Im hoping the update to Renegades will be in line with the new AM codex...perhaps we will have some cheap rogue Psykers to ally with.

[Sception]

I doubt it, unless FW is making a new unit.  My imprssion is that it is more about updating rules for existing FW units then introducing new ones.  They should have some psykers, as there are some (pretty cool) renegade psyker models, but there isn't a unit of psykers for them at the moment.

[Valaskjalf]

 

I doubt it, unless FW is making a new unit. My imprssion is that it is more about updating rules for existing FW units then introducing new ones. They should have some psykers, as there are some (pretty cool) renegade psyker models, but there isn't a unit of psykers for them at the moment.

Hmm I know the Rogue Psykers have stats in IA5 "Defenders of Vraks" and the models are also available on the FW site....so who knows. Maybe they will fall under the units to be updated, from what I read the Vraksian entries will be updated...but I get what you're saying about not being fielded in squads.