Athrawes Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 I was rereading Aurelian and came upon a passage I had overlooked. When the daemon Ingthel is telling Lorgar of the possible futures in which he never came to the Eye of Terror, he says the following: "In Another [timeline], you defied the the Anathema - the creature you name the Emperor, falsely considering it to be human - and you were executed by your brothers Curze and Russ. Your heart was cut from your corpse, and a great sorcery of alchemical and genetic power was wrought upon all who shared you bloodline. Your Legion was poisoned, reduced to madness, and finally annihilated by the fleets of the Ultramar Kingdom." While I know these are the words of the demon describing an alternate timeline, do you think this could be a clue as to how the missing legions were destroyed? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomus Sardauk Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Damn, well that certainly sounds like an effective way of eliminating an entire legion without resorting to a full blown war. Poison their very gene-seed through the Primarch's corpse then mop up the madden, mutated survivors with another Legion? Both incredibly cunning, and chilling to contemplate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3678896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Could be, I think something similar to that happens with geneseed in one of the Ragnar Blackmane books. Can you imagine Russ and Curze working together? I can't imagine they would get on very well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3678926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Could be, I think something similar to that happens with geneseed in one of the Ragnar Blackmane books. Can you imagine Russ and Curze working together? I can't imagine they would get on very well. Maybe in this alternate timeline, Curze isn't as looney Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3678957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Possibly, or maybe Russ is the crazy one?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3678960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Well Curze was degenerating throughout the Great Crusade, so if Lorgar defies the Emperor relatively early Curze might still be the "creepy, awkward brother" rather than the full blown Loony Tunes he becomes later. Anyway if you want a nasty job done you send the Wolves because they have a serious fetish for loyalty and the Night Lords because they won't find it nasty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3678992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Aside from the massive grain of salt I tend to take with anything stated by Chaos... I can see Curze being given the task of punisher and loving it. He has his own twisted code of justice and he was, after all, Space Batman before he went full-blown crazy from his visions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 As said above, it's Chaos talking, but I could definitely see Curze and Russ being sent to punish a Legion, and probably Curze poisoning the Gene-seed since he had his own weird version of justice even on Nostramo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 As said above, it's Chaos talking, but I could definitely see Curze and Russ being sent to punish a Legion, and probably Curze poisoning the Gene-seed since he had his own weird version of justice even on NostramoDon't worry, you're not the only to have that idea. "Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always." -- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231249-space-wolves-night-lords-and-world-eaters/?p=2788188 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I'm trying to understand the part about "falsely considering it [The Emperor] to be human". How does that assumption influence either Lorgar's defiance (does Lorgar believe the Emperor is too fallible?) or the Emperor's reaction (slaughtering Lorgar and decimating his Legion)? In the regular timeline, Lorgar thinks the Emperor is a god...and he still defies him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I haven't read Aurelian, but I'd read interpret "falsely consider to be human" as "you think the Emperor is not a monster. You're wrong!" Also, the bit about poisoning the Legion through its Primarch's corpse and 'reducing it to madness'; what that makes me think of is how Horus killing Sanguinus inflicted the Black Rage on the entire IX Legion, not all the Word Bearers dropping dead. Especially since it mentions how the Ultramarines fleet had to come in and finish the job. Apparently the XVII gave a pretty good accounting of itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I'm trying to understand the part about "falsely considering it [The Emperor] to be human". How does that assumption influence either Lorgar's defiance (does Lorgar believe the Emperor is too fallible?) or the Emperor's reaction (slaughtering Lorgar and decimating his Legion)? In the regular timeline, Lorgar thinks the Emperor is a god...and he still defies him... If you believe the Emperor is just a mere man, and as such no greater than the Primarchs he created, he loses his power, his aura, the thing about him that when he says "jump" makes everyone jump until he says "stop". But the Emperor isn't "human". He was never born. He is the collective energy of ten thousand shamans given physical form. Considering him to be human is like considering the Primarchs to be..... monkeys. But they're beyond that. All twenty two(twenty one Primarchs and the Emperor) are so much more than human. They always have been. The Astartes have the luxury of once being human. But the Emperor and the Primarchs? They never were. So if a Primarch considered the Emperor to be just a mere man, do you really believe the Primarch who believes in gods and that things of lesser powers should obey the things of greater power would really bend the knee? Do you really think that a demi-god would be afraid of one tiny mortal? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Makes sense. So, one viable possibility would Lorgar from said timeline going straight for the Chaos Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I'm trying to understand the part about "falsely considering it [The Emperor] to be human". How does that assumption influence either Lorgar's defiance (does Lorgar believe the Emperor is too fallible?) or the Emperor's reaction (slaughtering Lorgar and decimating his Legion)? In the regular timeline, Lorgar thinks the Emperor is a god...and he still defies him... If you believe the Emperor is just a mere man, and as such no greater than the Primarchs he created, he loses his power, his aura, the thing about him that when he says "jump" makes everyone jump until he says "stop". But the Emperor isn't "human". He was never born. He is the collective energy of ten thousand shamans given physical form. Considering him to be human is like considering the Primarchs to be..... monkeys. But they're beyond that. All twenty two(twenty one Primarchs and the Emperor) are so much more than human. They always have been. The Astartes have the luxury of once being human. But the Emperor and the Primarchs? They never were. So if a Primarch considered the Emperor to be just a mere man, do you really believe the Primarch who believes in gods and that things of lesser powers should obey the things of greater power would really bend the knee? Do you really think that a demi-god would be afraid of one tiny mortal? 21 Primarchs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Omegon, methinks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 The one that is so sneaky the emperor actually lost him... Hence why he's a lost Primarch... Nikona Sharr... *magical mystical sniper rifle shot to the head* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Ah, counting the XXth Primarch as two, gotcha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Ah, counting the XXth Primarch as two, gotcha.Yeah, twins count as two in my book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Ah, counting the XXth Primarch as two, gotcha. Yeah, twins count as two in my book. No, I get it, I just never see the extra added to the lists of, usually 18 or 20, Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I think its because of the "one soul in two bodies" or maybe even because Alpharius is the only "official" Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 As said above, it's Chaos talking, but I could definitely see Curze and Russ being sent to punish a Legion, and probably Curze poisoning the Gene-seed since he had his own weird version of justice even on Nostramo I don't really think curze is cable of great alchemical sorcery. I think the implication was that the emperor did that part, he used his sons to get the heart, then used the heart for sorcery to poison a disloyal legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 As said above, it's Chaos talking, but I could definitely see Curze and Russ being sent to punish a Legion, and probably Curze poisoning the Gene-seed since he had his own weird version of justice even on Nostramo I don't really think curze is cable of great alchemical sorcery. I think the implication was that the emperor did that part, he used his sons to get the heart, then used the heart for sorcery to poison a disloyal legion. Makes sense, I can see Curze taking pleasure in carving the heart from his brothers body. The path to Looneyville is easy to navigate when you already know how to get there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonkin Arenis Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 The quote makes me think of Omegon sabotaging the gene tech Corax used to reforge his Legion after Isstvan V. He spiked it with a "daemon blood poison" which caused the terrible deformities the clones suffered. Not sure how exactly that would link in to how the Lost Legions may have disappeared, or whether the situation is similar to the quote in question, but it's information at least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3679772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 I haven't read Aurelian, but I'd read interpret "falsely consider to be human" as "you think the Emperor is not a monster. You're wrong!" There's some irony in a Daemon Prince calling anything a monster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3682222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenkaranpu Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 · Hidden by Hyaenidae, October 4, 2014 - pruning due to offensive comments, to save an otherwise constructive thread Hidden by Hyaenidae, October 4, 2014 - pruning due to offensive comments, to save an otherwise constructive thread I'm trying to understand the part about "falsely considering it [The Emperor] to be human". How does that assumption influence either Lorgar's defiance (does Lorgar believe the Emperor is too fallible?) or the Emperor's reaction (slaughtering Lorgar and decimating his Legion)? In the regular timeline, Lorgar thinks the Emperor is a god...and he still defies him... If you believe the Emperor is just a mere man, and as such no greater than the Primarchs he created, he loses his power, his aura, the thing about him that when he says "jump" makes everyone jump until he says "stop". But the Emperor isn't "human". He was never born. He is the collective energy of ten thousand shamans given physical form. Considering him to be human is like considering the Primarchs to be..... monkeys. But they're beyond that. All twenty two(twenty one Primarchs and the Emperor) are so much more than human. They always have been. The Astartes have the luxury of once being human. But the Emperor and the Primarchs? They never were. So if a Primarch considered the Emperor to be just a mere man, do you really believe the Primarch who believes in gods and that things of lesser powers should obey the things of greater power would really bend the knee? Do you really think that a demi-god would be afraid of one tiny mortal? The Emperor of Man was born human. Primarchs were not and had never supposed to be humans. But the Emperor was biologicaly speaking, a human. And he had a human spirit, even though he was closer of übermensch and the Wise-man of Stoicism in the mindset aspect. The Emperor had parents, brothers and sisters, he grew up as a normal kid in Anatolia mountains. The chaos gods couldn't kill him at that time because they were not active yet (the Emperor was born / created before Khorne waked up). The difference between normal humans and the Emperor is that He was an extremely powerfull psyker of god-like level, created by fusing thousands of ancient shamans psykers, all of them having live hundreds or ten thousand human lives, some of those souls were old enough to have once lived in pre-homo sapiens bodies and still remembered it. Plus, the Emperor had a great mastery of his powers and used them to regenerate his cells, making him immortal. What makes him an "anathema" of Chaos is that he was both the last and greatest human immitation of the Old Ones, having a mindset closer to the Order side of the Warp rather than Chaos. The Emperor was a human being and had enough humility to recognize it. Hence, he didn't want to be call a god by his own son. Plus, he thought "unrational" philosophies would only favor the Chaos gods, while knowing violent emotions favoured by them couldn't be completely erased. That's the explanation for the modern atheist delirium conducting to the verry pious Lorgar forgetting the verry basis of Religion (tests of faith from God, a sense of gratuity...) while ironically the chaplains of the other Legions didn't. It's all verry well explained in the old Fluff, written by the one true original author of Warhammer 40k Universe (and is original collaborators), hail as the main aspiration for the Emperor, or even the Emperor himself : Mister Richard Priestley. Why everyone is forgetting that nowadays is beyond me, but Gros Woleur & Black Library staffs should try to be a little less insolent, copyright owning or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290783-destruction-of-disloyal-legions/#findComment-3824517
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