Destruction of Disloyal Legions

[Kol Saresk]

How is it insolence when Rick Priestley was one of the very people who brought about the changes that saw most of Rogue Trader made obsolete?

[Hyaenidae]

Also, it's not so much that people are forgetting, per se, and more that we are approaching the Heresy story line with fresh eyes, as so much we thought we knew about the Heresy, the Legions, the Emperor, Perpetuals and such have been regularly retconned or heavily altered that we have grown somewhat used to being 'wrong' at this point.

[Tenkaranpu]

@Kol_Saresk : true, but I'm mostly speaking about the Horus Heresy series, where authors who unsurprisingly don't master the universe as it is not theirs, are not being cautious when making "Official Fluff". And that's insolence.

Imagine Chrétiens de Troyes was still alive and avaible to be contacted, at the time where other authors used his original works ? Other exemple, it would be Tetris. You know the guy who made it never own the rights and touch the money he should have (because the legal owner of the copyrights was the soviet regime) despite the fact it was a planetary success ? In 4th Edition their was still the concept of Moral Victory, it happened that I won this way sometimes despite being defeated (unsurprisingly, every loss while playing Deamon Hunter's was tragic). It's kinda the same thing. Not having the copyrights don't exclude the rightful honors and respect to Rick Priestley.

@1000heathens : well, true enough, but when even those retconing authors are admitting it's hard for them to be in the head (how you say that in English... ? well... you will understand hopefully lol) of Supermen like the Primarch, you know it's bad quality work. Because if you study Philosophy enough, it's not that hard to do it. Stoicism, Epicurism... all that those idiots philosophers produce since thousands of years without any effect, hélas. And something like the fact the Imperium exist for Mankind can win some time to evolve and become a psychic species, before the gods of Chaos destroys it... the fact it was the plan of the Emperor all along... that is something who can simply not be retconned.

And if Rick Priestley is the Emperor and they have trouble to get in his head and know what he thinks about, well, do they have even asked him ?

Plus, if their is something those idiots should have retconned, it's the fact that the gods of Chaos seems to have kidnapp the Primarchs without a fight. But they didn't, right ? They could have, but they didn't, right ? It's not like the chaos gods could have done something like that just by clapping with their hands, right ? It was the perfect occasion to rightfully bring up their war obsession, but they leted it go ! How is that not crazy ? Plus, it would have been a nice scenario in White Dwarf (just imagining the Emperor alone trying to protect 20 objectives against 2000 points of Daemons... lol).

[Conn Eremon]

Cautious about what? Canon? There is no such thing in Warhammer. The original creator's intent? What you seem to see as a disregard is 100% following that intent. Half-truths, lies, propaganda, falsehoods, perspective bias, ignorance and misunderstanding. These are the concepts upon which Priestley created the setting, and it is to these concepts that the BL staff have followed and retained.

[Wade Garrett]

The Emperor of Mankind. Having humility. Being humble.

 

Maybe it's just me, but when I think of those qualities, a guy who walks around in golden armor brighter than the sun, speaks in a THUNDERlNG PSYCHlC TUMULT, lives in a continent spanning palace visible from Mars, and plasters pictures and sculptures of himself on everything is not the first thing that comes to mind.

[Kol Saresk]

So essentially, you're playing favoritism. When Rick Priestley retcons something, its okay. When someone else does it with his blessing, it's a bad thing?

 

Also, the only true übermensch in Warhammer 40K, is the Emperor. Maybe the Primarchs. But the Astartes? They are not übermensch.

 

Nietzchian philosophy is that the übermensch has very human desires and motivations, but has no societal or cultural restraints when it comes to those. The Astartes do not have human desires. They are children whose minds have been broken and reforged. All desire has been perverted into the desires to kill, break and dominate, all the while removing fear, love and joy in all the important ways we would recognize it, things Nietzsche would never approve of. The Emperor is beyond human because he was never truly human. You can't have that kind of power and call yourself human. But, you still come from Humanity. You still have Humanity inside you. You are Humanity Personified and Ascendant. That is Übermensch.

 

The Astartes are not Humanity Personified and Ascendant. They are Humanity Broken and Downtrodden, forced to give up the very things that make them human while being made into monsters of war. That is why they "post"-human. They have left Humanity behind, not because they went beyond it, but because they stopped being human.

[simison]

*glances at Alexandros*  ....ow. 

 

Personally speaking, I take everything the demons with a hefty dose of salt. I am doubtful that even with the obtuse imagery, it's still as straight of a story as that.

[A D-B]

 

It's all verry well explained in the old Fluff, written by the one true original author of Warhammer 40k Universe (and is original collaborators), hail as the main aspiration for the Emperor, or even the Emperor himself : Mister Richard Priestley. Why everyone is forgetting that nowadays is beyond me, but Gros Woleur & Black Library staffs should try to be a little less insolent, copyright owning or not.

 

 

Is that the same Rick Priestley who was in the earliest Heresy meetings? The one whose wife still is in them, and is still Black Library's chief editor? 

 

I ask because that ancient origin story of the Emperor has barely been mentioned (and thus, hasn't necessarily been true) for over 20 years, and Rick worked in GW for almost all of that time. Maybe people aren't forgetting anything or being insolent, and maybe your tone is a little incorrectly superior. 

[A D-B]

@Kol_Saresk : true, but I'm mostly speaking about the Horus Heresy series, where authors who unsurprisingly don't master the universe as it is not theirs...

 

...Because if you study Philosophy enough, it's not that hard to do it. Stoicism, Epicurism... all that those idiots philosophers produce since thousands of years without any effect, hélas. 

 

No, no. By that logic, since you didn't author those philosophies, no amount of studying them will allow you to master them or understand them.

 

You're mistaking "I dislike something" for something much more broad and valid. What you're saying (on guesswork alone) is that someone like Andy Chambers couldn't master 40K because he didn't invent it. And that's nonsense. 

 

 

And if Rick Priestley is the Emperor and they have trouble to get in his head and know what he thinks about, well, do they have even asked him ? unsure.png

 

 

What if the answer's yes? What if the answer is "Yes, they have asked him"? Then what? I ask purely out of curiosity.

[Daemon2027]

Just want to say that my Word Bearers are very much Übermensch, or at least they believe they are. I like Nietzsche, see my sig, I plan to use his philosophey, but interpreted by semi psychotic gen enhanced transhumans in 28 thousand years.

[Tenkaranpu]

@Cormac : you are talking about 40k their, not 30k, thus it don't apply to Horus Heresy series. The Imperium has decayed over 10 000 years, that's logic.

@Wade : about humility, I was mostly talking about Lorgar... But it's true that the Emperor doesn't want to be called a God, according to post-Priestley Fluff. I was merely trying to find an explanation to that atheistic bad trip. Because, yeah, the guy is glowing while wearing golden armor... if you looks like Jesus in space marine armor, then you are Space Jesus. Because of those contradictions in the original Fluff and modern Fluff, the Emperor mindset gained a kind of "humility" aspect. Anyway, it's true that the Emperor has a sense of gratuity and compassion, because if he had not, he would have died instead of suffering for 10 000 years with his soul torn appart by Chaos.

But whatever, that doesn't matter... because Lorgar was supposed to be humble, as a religious man. I don't understand... maybe the authors just hate him, because he is not making any sense. ^^'

The Emperor is beyond human because he was never truly human. You can't have that kind of power and call yourself human. But, you still come from Humanity. You still have Humanity inside you.

You are misunderstanding what I was saying... yes, the Emperor is übermensch. I didn't said the Primarchs (nor the Space Marines) were. Plus, it seem you american people don't really understand what humanity is... that's not really surprising because your language use alphabet instead of ideogram, where the meaning of the word is best carried. But whatever... '

In a Confucianist point of view, you can be sure the Emperor is human, both as part of the Humankind 人類 and as a virtue

仁. As I said, when he was born and grew up, he was no different of normal people, and his parents had no special reason to think he was in the first place.

The Astartes are not Humanity Personified and Ascendant. They are Humanity Broken and Downtrodden, forced to give up the very things that make them human while being made into monsters of war. That is why they "post"-human. They have left Humanity behind, not because they went beyond it, but because they stopped being human.

Why don't you say that to Salamanders who live with the human population or with those Blood Angels artists ? And has 仁 (toku, hito, Humanity, Supreme Virtue) is still possible for Astartes, thus your statement, despite being well known and acceptable for many 40k fans and authors, is not entirely true.

Personally, I don't understand why some people thinks what is human should obviously be weak and limited. Space Marines are biologically speaking superior to men ---> "oh my gawd they're monster !", is that it ? Dude, don't be racist, it's an Astartes forum you know (just kidding, hein...).

Just remember too much grim dark kill the grim dark. ^^'

No, no. By that logic, since you didn't author those philosophies, no amount of studying them will allow you to master them or understand them.

"The Wise Man is the equal of the gods, only by lifespan he differs." Anneus Seneca

People like you are what makes philosophers useless (and republics too, by the way).

Is that the same Rick Priestley who was in the earliest Heresy meetings? The one whose wife still is in them, and is still Black Library's chief editor?

I ask because that ancient origin story of the Emperor has barely been mentioned (and thus, hasn't necessarily been true) for over 20 years, and Rick worked in GW for almost all of that time. Maybe people aren't forgetting anything or being insolent, and maybe your tone is a little incorrectly superior.

I see... that's a bit surprising though, because the style still looks too much different, and their is a lot of... how should I say it ? Aberrations ?

Personally speaking, I take everything the demons with a hefty dose of salt. I am doubtful that even with the obtuse imagery, it's still as straight of a story as that.

Yeah, right ? "Do not speak to the daemon; do not listen the daemon, do not look at the daemon."

@Daemon2027 : Word Bearers are not Übermensch at all... besides, they don't have faith in the "Gott ist tot" thing but in the "Kaiser ist tot" that's totaly different.

Oh... and, you might not know it A DB, but 40k is most popular and well informed in the English-speaking world. We in France, we are just like John Snow, we know nothing (well... it's partly because you guys are not telling us... xD), so you will have to excuse me if things like wikipedia or lexicanum entry are more empty than the Unknown Legions background. ;)

[Loesh]

The Emperor of Mankind. Having humility. Being humble.

 

Maybe it's just me, but when I think of those qualities, a guy who walks around in golden armor brighter than the sun, speaks in a THUNDERlNG PSYCHlC TUMULT, lives in a continent spanning palace visible from Mars, and plasters pictures and sculptures of himself on everything is not the first thing that comes to mind.

 

That's generally how I feel about the Emperor too, but he does have *some* humble moments here and there, for Chaos and the Emperor both my general stance on the subject is that the difference between gods and daemons tends to matter mostly from where you're standing. As Cormac said there's not really any kind of canon, though I would add at the same time there are some basic truths such as: Chaos comes from peoples emotions, what geneseed is, etc...the VERY basic things are clear cut but when talking about morality, personality, or even just what someone looks like things get dicey.

 

None more so then the Emperor because we know so very little about him, and what little we do know is ten thousand years old, stirred in a barrel with all kinds of propaganda, and then poured out in front of us in a gigantic mess...which may be for the best actually as it gives him some mysticism. My stance is the Emperor was a massive arse, if for no other reason then to me he seems like an extremely poor father, but there's always the argument that he was actually at least pretty decent or that he simply had more important things to do then cater to his 'sons' who should of been able to take care of themselves.

 

Again, depends on where you stand.

[Daemon2027]

I know. They are not. But the thing with philosophey, like religion, it can be twisted to fit your own reality, and in the far future, when your trying to adjust from a strict philosophical view, to one of worship of one God, and then many, this sort of philosophey can be harnessed, and twisted into something different.

 

I personally see the marines in 30k as more then just soldiers, if their primarch lets them. They work on the mind to. They are more human, they don't always understand like a human as their emotions are different, but they are not as messed up as 40k ones are. Hel even Khârn wrote a treaty on the nature of the Legions.

 

To me he Emperor is an avatar of humanity, all the best and worst bits bound into a body, probally more psychic energy then material. He is everything humanity can be, good and bad. His is ambitious, but blood thirsty, kind yet vicious, farsighted and ignorant. Everything man in he is. His plans were doomed to fail just as much as they were certain to succeed.

 

It's all a view point. Of all of it. And a view depends on ones outlook. Every sing character from the rule books to a HH book gives us a view, and we interpret that how we want. Don't let it be so ridged, stuff has been written in a multitude of ways, it can change, but in a sense it still all exists. You like the one certain view, cool, that's your truth. Mine lies somewhere else, in a mix of philosophey and religion from our time merged with the stuff written by guys like ADB. This is a hobby, where we can be as creative as we want with models, and painting, and terrain, and best of all the background.

 

Edit:sorry if that last paragraph wasn't entirley relevant, you got me reading philosophey while drinking beer, always unhinges me slightly.

[Conn Eremon]

It applies to everything produced by Games Workshop or those licensed by them.

 

So yeah, it applies to 30k as well.

 

Totes def, and all that.

[Loesh]

I was trying to find a picture that illustrated my point pretty well, and I came up with this.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/d/dd/Horus_vs_The_Emperor.jpg

 

Now, this is a pretty famous picture in the 40k fandom, but it's just that: It's a picture, an illustration, something someone in the Imperium likely painted and not a photograph. It seems biblical doesn't it? With the Emperor shining in gold across the ultimate evil in the galaxy, the sacrificed son at his feet..did they really dress like that? Cause i'm not sure they did honestly. This may of been drawn thousands of years later by an Imperial elite trying to capture what, to them, is the ultimate battle between good and evil in the galaxy.

 

Horus looks comically evil, how could you convince anyone of anything when you look that way? no one would see that guy and think he's good news. Similarly the Emperor has a bloody halo around his head when surely he must be aware that makes him look more then a little divine! People often ask, if the Emperor hated religion so much, why did he walk around in golden plate, radiate holy energy, and communicate with people psychically...the most obvious answer to me is in most cases he probably didn't or at least not as exaggerated as we typically see or read about.

[Kol Saresk]

"You American People". Wow. That is so racist. Okay folks, goodbye. I take my leave and wipe my hands of this nonsense.

[Hyaenidae]

This thread is officially on lock-down, time now. 

 

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[Hyaenidae]

Alright, I have pruned back the posts to the more constructive based on the OP's original post.

 

Let's keep things clean and civil. 

 

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[Adra'Melek]

This isn't a hint of what happened to a/the lost Legion(s) as nothing happened to them. As in it has been decided and may never be decided, therefore thee can't be hints. Might be a boring answer but I think that's the truth of it. If you want fun though it's a tease of what 'could' have happened to one of them. It's showing there many more options than "Wolves did it" or "Warp did it" (as in mutants).

 

And long may that continue, we don't need to know everything. Mystery is good for some things. IMO

[Loesh]

This isn't a hint of what happened to a/the lost Legion(s) as nothing happened to them. As in it has been decided and may never be decided, therefore thee can't be hints. Might be a boring answer but I think that's the truth of it. If you want fun though it's a tease of what 'could' have happened to one of them. It's showing there many more options than "Wolves did it" or "Warp did it" (as in mutants).

 

And long may that continue, we don't need to know everything. Mystery is good for some things. IMO

 

Agreed, that mystery is by no means a bad thing. I like that the messages we get are so garbled, I like that most of our pictures of major imperial figures are obviously exaggerated biblical like paintings, and I like that most accounts we have are from obviously biased PoVs. Mystery is the lifeblood of 40k, it's what lets us have heroes and ultra-villains at the same time in every faction and not contradict, without it we wouldn't have such a colorful background or cast of characters.