Platoons in a Mech army

[Frater Cornelius]

Alright, we had our fun, now let's talk competitiveness

Just kidding, fun above all But still, as with my previous army (Space Wolves) I want to be entering the competitive scene with my Mech Guard.

The thing is, what I am lacking a lot is reliable AA shooting. In my mech list I sport 4 LR with variable load-outs, 3-4 Veterans in Chimeras for close support and objective grabbing with all 3 doctrines supported by CCS (possibly Creed), the non-FoC HQs, Wyvern and a Knight.

A small note though: even though I like playing competitive, nothing beats my love for fluff and themed armies. I usually try to find a middle ground.

I have little trouble with most things on the ground, save for maybe another mech spam list like 3 Land Raiders or Leman Russ spam.

I was looking for a solution that could adress both issues. Several things came to mind, like DA allies with Aegis Quad gun and the Hyperios Air Defence Platform, Contemptor Mortis or Vendetta, but those choices are way overpriced and do not fit my army fluff.

But then there is the Sabre Platfrom. It offers the AA I need while being able to help with AT. Taking 3 sets with a minimal platoon to camp home objectives while the cavalry pushes forward is interesting. Would a setup like this make sense for a mech list? Or are there other options? Or maybe I skip the AA altogether and stock up on more LR (like vanquier) to get 2x 2-tank squadrons into HS and rely on snap shots and ground domination?

The fluff problem I have with the platoon is my army is mostly because I dislike the idea of canon fodder. I sometimes even feel for my guys when I play, which is why I put so much time into themes and fluff. Every one of my vet squads has their story and their versatility and usefullness with 3 doctrines and orders ripping marines a new one. And then there are some no-name Joes sitting at the home objective and have no other job than to score and bring immobile AA platforms? I just can't get behind it. Even if I mech them up, they still fade in comparison to what my Veterans can (and have acomplished.. granted, even my Grey Hunter couldn't get close but that's beside the point).

Hope you guys have some ideas. Oh and inb4 flyers: I dislike the Valkyrie model, even if I am not totally opposed to flying steel seeing as it is still mech.

[WarriorFish]

Hybrid armies are fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Despite how much I love tanks most of my lists can be put under the hybrid banner - combined arms works and few can place such mighty tanks on the table and still give them plenty of infantry support like the Guard. You can easily have a Platoon hanging back with heavy weapons to hold objectives and offer support and it wouldn't break the bank either.

Tanks don't go around without infantry support often and when they do who's to say the Platoon isn't fighting a desperate battle to hold back the enemy when the cavalry come surging through to win the day? Last but not least a Platoon isn't cannon fodder unless you want it to be - it's a tough galaxy out there yes but your job as commander is to make sure every sacrifice is not in vain and avenged without mercy - something tanks do rather well!

AA is a troublesome subject though as it depends entirely on whether you encounter any or not. Find lots and your AA is priceless but it could be wasted points just as easily. Meta considerations aside I tend to think of it as a points limit thing - the higher the game value the ever more likely flyers are to appear. However throwing out enough shots is a valid method too, especially as it doesn't impact your ground based capabilities and Guard can do spam fire well.

[Frater Cornelius]

That is the reason I am starting to value the Sabre Defense Platform so much. 3x TL-LC for 150 (I think) that ignores night fighting with skyfire and intercept is a steal. They can put pressure on high profile targets, shoot flyers and intercept all kind of reserves. But they are immobile (though they have scout for some reason). The real question is whether that and their tax is worth having them over more mobile allrounders that are capable to bring down flyers by way of massed fire.

[spafe]

If your love is your vet guard mech force that charges forwards to save the day.... then why not go wit hteh sabre platforms from another regiment that are the buggers getting saved? you dont ahve to love them, they are the background characters to your heroes, making the glory boys look good!

 

In bigger games i'd even go so far as to consider then a small platoon of guys from that other regiment jsut to make it look like more of an existing battle line. something like 2 units with autocannons would be fine and cheap to add.

 

If none of that appeals... Is it worth looking at lightnings or other 'proper' flyers to give some airsupport?

[T0MMY]

Are we not talking Hydras because they take up a Heavy slot? Just throwing it out there but bung in a hydra for it's AA capabilities and keep it mech and mobile. If no AA turns up, it still has a heavy bolter or flamer and costs pretty little in bare bones.

 

I'm in two minds about a platoon; ok it's lots of bodies but the cost does add up (~around 500 for a few squads). I'm thinking I'd rather have a couple of kitted out veteran squads with chimeras for ~200 points a pop. Especially in a mech list (basically what OP said!).

[Frater Cornelius]

If your love is your vet guard mech force that charges forwards to save the day.... then why not go wit hteh sabre platforms from another regiment that are the buggers getting saved? you dont ahve to love them, they are the background characters to your heroes, making the glory boys look good!

 

In bigger games i'd even go so far as to consider then a small platoon of guys from that other regiment jsut to make it look like more of an existing battle line. something like 2 units with autocannons would be fine and cheap to add.

 

If none of that appeals... Is it worth looking at lightnings or other 'proper' flyers to give some airsupport?

 

Now that is a very interesting way of looking at it. A separate organisation (like AdMech Skitarii given that this is a Knight House) or a different regiment altogether is a smart move. Or Hell, one might call them the recruits that might one day grow up to glory boys.

 

As for the FW flyers, the Vulture is appealing but it costs quite a lot (of cash, that is) and if I get one, it would be 2 Vultures, seeing as 1 flyer might get intercepted. The Thunderbolts and Lightnings are also interesting but 180 for 11/11/10 hp3 or 10/10/10 hp2 is very fragile for their cost. i do have tio admit that the Thunderbolt has very potent weapons and fills the AA, AT and AI roles very well due to his versatility.. for a price of 180-220 points. I would prefer the vulture just because of the point cost.

 

 

Are we not talking Hydras because they take up a Heavy slot? Just throwing it out there but bung in a hydra for it's AA capabilities and keep it mech and mobile. If no AA turns up, it still has a heavy bolter or flamer and costs pretty little in bare bones.

 

I'm in two minds about a platoon; ok it's lots of bodies but the cost does add up (~around 500 for a few squads). I'm thinking I'd rather have a couple of kitted out veteran squads with chimeras for ~200 points a pop. Especially in a mech list (basically what OP said!).

 

Yes, as a mech player your HS slots are already very contested with LR and Wyvern. More-over, the Hydra lacks intercept, thus is useless against ground targets (the HB/HF are not much for it's cost) and when somethign heavy like the stormwing formation comes in, they will kill the hydra in a few shots. If I drop the Wyvern though, I could think about a 2-tank Hydra Squadron and play one LR as an Eradicator instead to deal with cover campers.

[hendrik]

i've only fielded autocannon sabre platform but i absolutly love them!

besides, what's not mech about an immobile weapons platform that can blast anything out of the sky?,you could even convert them to be automatons that need to brace themselves into the ground (hence the immobile) while being loaded/taken care of by 2 techpriests/skitari/whatever ;)

the simple grunts could be your average skitari troops, guarding the precious objectives

[Frater Cornelius]

Nice idea with the automatons. I used to have a similar idea with the Hyperios Platforms, didn't come to my mind here though :D

 

Very good ideas, everyone. Solid tactical insights and very intersting ideas. I am now torn between the Sabres and an actual air-cav.. well, I could have both but I feel like I am trying to have a cake an eat it too (and seeing how I rarely play over 1999+1).

[hendrik]

personally, i think the sabre platform will bring more to the table, since it's a good allround unit. TL lascannons and autocannons,combined with T7 and a 3+ save make it a rockhard unit in the imperial guard ranks and have the ability to hurt everything.

Flyers on the other hand are vunerable to AA (which certain armies such as tau excell at), and are in my opinion more situational that the sabre platforms. but then again i only play against a tau player, so i'm a bit biased

[Frater Cornelius]

personally, i think the sabre platform will bring more to the table, since it's a good allround unit. TL lascannons and autocannons,combined with T7 and a 3+ save make it a rockhard unit in the imperial guard ranks and have the ability to hurt everything.

Flyers on the other hand are vunerable to AA (which certain armies such as tau excell at), and are in my opinion more situational that the sabre platforms. but then again i only play against a tau player, so i'm a bit biased

 

But your bias has a ring of truth to it. I am not the only one looking for AA. And seeing how dominant certain Xenos armies are at the moment, using flyers would lead to being trapped in a spiders nest. Also, the 7ed is all but upon us and flyer rules might change, while a Platoon will always find a use as well as Sabres.

 

The issue is, however, they are FW. it has a been a while since I last played a tourney, no I have no idea what the general policy is these days.

[Frater Cornelius]

BY THE GOLDEN THRONE! I GOT IT! Thanks to your brilliant ideas I have finally found a way to incorporate a platoon in my army better than any air-cav. The origin of House Ravenholdt is mostly obscured but generally said, they were the last survivors of the auxiliry force used by my previous chapter (the SW I used to play). Given how the chapter fell to daemonic forces, my guys now hunter Chaos whereever possible to avenge them and prevent further incident like this. Due to the chapters teachings, the abundance of armour from their FW, their hostile homeworld and elite training human life is valued above all. Naturally, while fighting heretics, they capture some for questioning or wounded. Instead of throwing away that precious human life, they lobotomize those heretics and make them serve their regiment to redeem themselves in the Emperors eyes. They are relegated to minor tasks like back field or protecting the tanks and veterans. That way I feel that using them as shields is the right way and I do not need to sympathize with them. It really fits my house because it shows the darker side of the light they are supposed to be as well as show that in a dark world radical ways are necessary. It also supports their borderline theocratic nature and shows their connection with their FW. Yeah, just call 'em pseudo-flagellants. Now, the only question is... loadout! ;)

[spafe]

I would go with units with autocannons as they are pretty solid ranged support for not too much.

 

I love the fluff, cant wait to see how you'd go about creating the models for them

[hendrik]

you could even make the heavy weapon teams bigger servitors, since they are 2 W models. i'm looking forward to the conversions!

[WarriorFish]

Good ideas come to those who wait. A bit of chewing the cud helps too :P I second the autocannons and desire to see the models done :D

[Frater Cornelius]

Conversion is simple. I have loads of separate Cadian and Catachan arms, bodies and legs and spare SW heads. I'll buy a box of necron warriors and mix heads and limbs, add some holy symbols and add cables or head gear with green stuff and were done. The weapon team might just be a small automaton, like a weapon on legs. I'll need to see what bits I have. The sarges will probably be a slightly upgraded servitor since he needs to receive order and stuff (when he goes down, other heretics can not react as well anymore). The PCS will probably consist of a Priest or Techpriest-ish overseer with another few servitors.

 

As for the loadout. I was thinking of LC but in the end, yes AC will be superior since 2 shots offset low BS better and it's cheaper. Maybe give them a grenade launcher as well? Those are fairly cheap and, depending on positioning, they can support the midfield as well with the odd grenade hit. What to use for the Sabres though? I have very few LC in my army while exterminators and platoon do bring some s7 fire. And those LC are TL, so more likely to hit and with Bring It Down get a good pen. However Sabre AC brings more shots. I tend to get the LC simply because I have more than enough massed fire and lack s9 and long ranged ap2.

[march10k]

LOL...Four twinlinked S7 snap shots plus a heavy bolter for 70 points is hardly "useless," and hydras are a godsend when enemy air does show up.  I almost never field hydras in friendly games (they're essential in tournament play, IMHO), but since I'm using pask with a single squadron mate and not using wyverns, I can get four proper tanks that fire separately and still have  an FOC slot for a hydra squadron.  Neither the absence of intercept nor the FOC slots are a real obstacle, what's going on here is stubborn anger at the absence of intercept, that's all.  With intercept, they'd have to cost 120 points a model, I'm happy the way they are!

[Frater Cornelius]

I still think the Sabre is superior to a Hydra due to Intercept and thus more useful when there are no flyers. The thing I said on the first post was that I also needed long ranged support to not offer me that kind of flexibility and requires me to move my FoC. Sabre is also more survivable since it's immune to ID from high strength shooting.

[march10k]

I'm not arguing that the hydra is better than a sabre defense platform.  If you're playing in an environment where sabres are welcomed, go for it.  In my shop, if it's not in the codex, you can't use it in league or tournament play, and that covers about 95% of the games that are played there.  If it's league night, people play in the league.  Every other night, it's x-wing, WFB, magic, or board games or something.

 

My point was that there's nothing wrong with a hydra not having interceptor, given the number of twinlinked S7 skyfire shots that it has for the points, and AV12. If you want interceptor to come standard, there's no way you get hydras so cheap...just like if you wanted the wyvern to have better S or AP on its templates, you'd be paying more.  Hydras aren't the ultimate answer to ever tactical problem, but they don't come with the ultimate price tag, either.  Like wyverns, they're cheap because they aren't omnipotent.

[Sinthos117]

For that infantry blob consider using a Primaris Psyker.  Using Divination, twinlinking your shots is great.  Add the order to ignore cover and flyers will hate you.  Another bonus is that every shot at the blob is a shot not focused on your essential troops.

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm not arguing that the hydra is better than a sabre defense platform.  If you're playing in an environment where sabres are welcomed, go for it.  In my shop, if it's not in the codex, you can't use it in league or tournament play, and that covers about 95% of the games that are played there.  If it's league night, people play in the league.  Every other night, it's x-wing, WFB, magic, or board games or something.

 

My point was that there's nothing wrong with a hydra not having interceptor, given the number of twinlinked S7 skyfire shots that it has for the points, and AV12. If you want interceptor to come standard, there's no way you get hydras so cheap...just like if you wanted the wyvern to have better S or AP on its templates, you'd be paying more.  Hydras aren't the ultimate answer to ever tactical problem, but they don't come with the ultimate price tag, either.  Like wyverns, they're cheap because they aren't omnipotent.

 

You bring up a good point. Sabres are FW and while my local gaming group is fine as long as you can present the rules, not all tourneys are (I would presume, I have no idea). But luckily the Hydra is only 1 weapon swap away from the Wyvern, so I always have at least 1 Hydra here.

The questions are now: how to use a Hydra when there is no flyers. It can shoot at skimmers so wave serpents will be scared. It will go down fast due to av12 and open topped, but it might get a shot of considering that LR and the Knight pose bigger threats. What else is there to do? Snap Shots? That's 1.22 hits statistically. I will need to play test it to see if those 70 points are worth investing in potentially very little use.

 

But, should there be no option for Sabres, is a Platoon any good in a Mech list? Home objective sitting is still a thing, but are the weapon teams any good? with t3 2w they will be instagibbed and without prescience, they hit badly (Prescience might not be a primaris power come 7ed) and it would still mean the lack of LC shooting, only an increase in either blasts (mortar) or AC shots, both of which I do have enough. Are LC worth taking in HWS? Armoured Sentinels do the same for less I think.

Is there any more uses? The blob is not my main focus, so how does one use it properly to actually support an armoured advance when there aren't any home objectives to baby sit?

[march10k]

Nah, unless you can hide them in a vehicle with three fire points, heavy weapons teams are pants, for exactly the reasons you cite. OTOH, 60 points for a spammable 10 man squad with an autocannon is actually pretty good. And 125 for an AV12 vehicle sprouting 6 S5/6 shots, with two S7 shots (potentially at a different target) is good, too, if you spam it. Mounted or dismounted, platoons are awesome if spammed, and decent if not spammed, so long as you keep them cheap.

 

As for the hydra, it's never 1.22 hits...it's 1.22 hits plus whatever the hull weapon is doing. For a hydra, I would ignore the conventional wisdom and always go heavy bolter. That's an additional .5 hits per turn against fliers, and bumps your total against ground targets to 2.72 hits, and ~3 hits per turn isn't terrible for the cost. Also, unless the enemy has air, he's going to think the hydra is harmless and ignore it. If he does have air, you're going to stash the hydra where it has LOS to fliers, but ground units can't see it, like behind a proper tank. It's only an easy kill if it's a big threat AND you expose it to enemy fire.