b1soul Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I'm reading the Forgeworld fluff on the AL...and these guys strike me as too good. What's the point of the other legions if the AL can pretty much achieve the same results at only a fraction of the cost? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 But they can't...or else they'd won the heresy... It's a common misconception that the Alpha Legion are the Mary Sues of the WH40k universe. Sure they infiltrate here and there and have schemes and plots...does anyone fall for them though? In Scars, both the White Scars and Space Wolves see through them and heck, every single BL book about them seems to end with a good portion of the main characters dying. Is it uncommon to have a legion's background story be about how good they are? Does the Sons of Horus background list their failures and flaws over and over again? Heck, even their rules portray that they are not the best...who else have "hubris" in their rules??? That's not a positive trait... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3680747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Because their schemes take years or decades to bear fruit. Most of the time is better to have straightfoward assualt and crush the enemy in weeks and move on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3680748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 That and they're a small Legion iirc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3680751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Any Legion that drags them into protracted warfare. The battle in Extermination was an Alpha Legion victory, but they failed to kill the now loyalist Iron Warriors and left the system. In fact the who operation was a risk, one massive assault that could easily have failed and would have been pyrrhic if they had they hadnt able to recoup lost wargear. the Salamanders are noted at being able to counter asymmetrical warfare but any legion that can drag them into a fight thats not on the Hydras terns will win. Also remember that the Alpha Legion have been preparing for the Heresy a lot longer then everyone else. They are currently one step ahead of the other Legions but that will change. Oh and also, can even Alpharius control the web he has weaved. It seems that his brother has already moved against him. The Hydra is only strong united. If it splinters it will become a different beast, still dangerous, and all but impossible to kill, but without the strength to continue such large scale warfare shown in Extermination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3680767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemujinZero Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 That and they're a small Legion iirc. Their size is unknown, but it's thought to be as much as 180,000. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3680785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blissful Brushes Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 So far from what I've read their legion strength is actually quite high. In Scars the Khan is surprised about how many ships he's facing despite the fact that so many have already been deployed to Prospero to hold up Russ. I would think that they've got a fairly substantial legion to be honest. While Alpharius himself may not be the beast that Angron/Horus etc. are in combat they do seem to be held not quite in fear, but certainly respected as an army if not by their methods. In Legion it's implied that they recruit aspirants in 'teams', rather than going for individual effort, which would probably allow for higher pass rates than those who are simply aiming for a big fella who can run all day and swing a sword even after his arms fall off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3680913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 So far from what I've read their legion strength is actually quite high. In Scars the Khan is surprised about how many ships he's facing despite the fact that so many have already been deployed to Prospero to hold up Russ. I would think that they've got a fairly substantial legion to be honest. While Alpharius himself may not be the beast that Angron/Horus etc. are in combat they do seem to be held not quite in fear, but certainly respected as an army if not by their methods. In Legion it's implied that they recruit aspirants in 'teams', rather than going for individual effort, which would probably allow for higher pass rates than those who are simply aiming for a big fella who can run all day and swing a sword even after his arms fall off. The Khan also said that some of the Alpha Legion ships are actually decoys, which goes some way to explaining the large number of vessels deployed in that novel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3680937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 The Dark Angels. Alpha Legion is self reliant to the point of hubris, Dark Angels are self reliant because they lack trust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I think their biggest weakness it probably themselves. They are so secretive, cellular and have so many fingers in different pies that they are in danger of their different parts working at cross purposes. Like the 40k inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 The Alpha Legion is the biggest counter to the Alpha Legion. As others have noted above, they lack unity of purpose and effort. They end up working at cross purposes and stabbing each other in the back, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
halt_fiend Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Dark Angels specialise in killing traitor space marines, so they are as good as any. Well, them and the grey knights haha... Though I don't think they should do so together, or the Grey Knights might get a little suspicious... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Dude. Wrong era. There are no Grey Knights in 30K. The dark angels are very different in the Horus Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristeo Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 How can the Alpha Legion lack unity of purpose and effort if their hallmark is coldly efficient coordination and tactics? One body, many heads, remember? Too many conclusions are being drawn based on little evidence. What happened in Serpent Beneath is questionable, and nobody knows the purpose behind it. Nothing with the Alpha Legion is as it seems. Omegon taking out the tenebrae installation could have been an operation in taking out a perceived weak link within the Legion. The Alpha Legion likes to play games, maybe the twins like to play games to keep each other on their toes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 How can the Alpha Legion lack unity of purpose and effort if their hallmark is coldly efficient coordination and tactics? One body, many heads, remember? Too many conclusions are being drawn based on little evidence. What happened in Serpent Beneath is questionable, and nobody knows the purpose behind it. Nothing with the Alpha Legion is as it seems. Omegon taking out the tenebrae installation could have been an operation in taking out a perceived weak link within the Legion. The Alpha Legion likes to play games, maybe the twins like to play games to keep each other on their toes. This is a fair point. However I always took the unity as on the battlefield, and through coordination. HH3 speculates on Page 91 that its possible entire generations of Alpha Legion warriors could of been trained, fought and died in ignorance of their own Legion's wider operations, purposes and goals. Like Cells. This is how I have chosen to interpret them. This is the sort of legion that would create and unleash a red cell element (like the US but more grimdark) to test their own strength. With only the primarchs able to order them to stop. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 The problem comes in because in some portrayals the Alphas come across as overly secretive for the sake of it, rather than efficient. The twins 'keeping each other on their toes' by damaging the Legion (I assume that what the tenebrae installation refers to, don't know what story you're referencing) is a prime example of that, thier love of shadow play impairing the function of the Legion as a military force. The secrecy creates problems, both in universe and for us trying to make some sense of the narrative. For a facetious example, if nothing is how it seems, how do we know the Legion is unified to one purpose? It may well be that the Hydra as at least two bodies along with its heads, and they don't agree. Whatever the tenebrae was may have been a weak link for the whole Legion, it may have been to the advantage of Alpahrius not Omegon, it may have been a ploy by Alpharius to vilify his twin and bring more of the Legion over to his faction, or one/both of the twins might have space crazy and the voices told him to do it. That sums up the issue with the current super secretive, wheels within wheels, 'I am Alpahrius' XX Legion imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I highly doubt the Tenebrae Installation was an exercise, considering they lost some very important Astartes in the mission. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 The Dark Angels. Alpha Legion is self reliant to the point of hubris, Dark Angels are self reliant because they lack trust. Nemiel was the one Alpha Legion spy in the 1st Legion, and the Luon just so happened to falcon punch his head off. "GROW ANOTHER EFFIN HEAD NEMIEL I DARE YOU!!! I WILL CONTINUE PUNCHING THE HEADS OF THE HYDRA OFF AS I NEED!" -attributed, Lion El'Jonson Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I would tell no legion same way as there is really no "counter legion" for Word Bearers, Sons of Horus, Night Lords or any other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I'd argue that the Ultramarines' tenacity and flexibility were a very effective counter to the blind zeal and fury of the Word Bearers, the Imperial Fists had the patience and discipline to blunt the Sons Speartip on Terra, and the Dark Angels had the ruthlessness to run down the Night Lords. On the other hand, the Alpha Legion are the perfect counter to the Alpha Legion since the hydra might be one body with numerous heads, but those heads don't all seem to know they're attached to the same body so they bite each other all the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Off topic, but can anyone explain the "Salamanders are exceptional at countering asymmetrical warfare" thing to me? I'll stipulate up front that my knowledge of the boys from Noctrune is limited to "They like artificer armor, mastercrafted gear, and flamers on everything down to the Chapter Serfs", and I'm a bit unsure how that jibes with "Good at countering insurgents and guerillas". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Not sure about asymmetrical warfare, but the Salamanders' fixation with defending humans as individuals rather than humanity as a whole should make them quite well suited to counterinsurgency. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Off topic, but can anyone explain the "Salamanders are exceptional at countering asymmetrical warfare" thing to me? I'll stipulate up front that my knowledge of the boys from Noctrune is limited to "They like artificer armor, mastercrafted gear, and flamers on everything down to the Chapter Serfs", and I'm a bit unsure how that jibes with "Good at countering insurgents and guerillas". Because you need good flamers to cleanse all the holes and burrows the Alpha legion operatives are hiding in! ...or was that rodents or something... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Off topic, but can anyone explain the "Salamanders are exceptional at countering asymmetrical warfare" thing to me? I'll stipulate up front that my knowledge of the boys from Noctrune is limited to "They like artificer armor, mastercrafted gear, and flamers on everything down to the Chapter Serfs", and I'm a bit unsure how that jibes with "Good at countering insurgents and guerillas". Asymmetric warfare isn't just conventional military vs insurgent/guerilla. It's merely a conflict where the two sides have a major difference in power level, or massively different strategy. I think the Salamander thing (from their fluff in Massacre) is more focussed on the different power level aspect, they were frequently engaging superior enemy forces on less than ideal terms and prevailing or preventing crisis by holding on until reinforcement. Although their experience in uphill struggles may put them in good stead against insurgent ambushes and the like, they're used to being on the back foot. Edited for spelling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 It's Dark Angels - Alpha Legion White Scars - World Eaters Space Wolves - Thousand Sons Imperial Fists - Iron Warriors Blood Angels - Sons of Horus Iron Hands - Emperor's Children Ultramarines - Word Bearers Salamanders - Death Guard Raven Guard - Night Lords According to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/290863-which-legion-counters-the-alpha-legion/#findComment-3681325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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