Which legion counters the Alpha Legion?

[Yogi]

Eh. "Being large" was never a trait of the Word Bearers in the past. They just sort of made them that way in the HH series out of necessity, because their attack on the Ultramarines had to be somewhat plausible. And IIRC they only really built up their size after being chastised, and perhaps specifically so they could attack the Ultramarines.

 

At what point does the list need to be set? Before the heresy?

[Karthak]

They only attacked with 50,000

The entire Legion attacked Ultramar. 50.000 went to Calth. The rest to places like Armatura.

[reckoning]

There shouldnt be a list. Big E never intended his sons to war amongst themselves. They have rivalries sure, but anyone with siblings knows this is always true.

[Uprising]

There shouldnt be a list. Big E never intended his sons to war amongst themselves. They have rivalries sure, but anyone with siblings knows this is always true.

Maybe he did intend for the war.  Who to say that after the primarch disappearance caused by the chaos gods, he increase the flame of rivalry to see who was still loyal, and awaited for rebellion.  Sadly, he did not see horus turning.  

[Legatus]

 

At what point does the list need to be set? Before the heresy?

 

It's just a fun game we play. I allways saw that kind of pairing as "universal", i.e. as being valid even in the 41st millennium. In my list I am considering the post-heresy "Slaanesh" Emperor's Children, and not the loyal Crusade era Emperor's Children. But then pretty much none of the other Legions changed their doctrines so drastically after the betrayal.

 

The Ultramarines have long been famous for their size and recruitment during the Crusade, and even in the 41st millennium still have higher than usual ressources and a large and stable recruitment base. But even then, "being big" is not what they stand for, and how they operate. That they have such an abundance of ressources was simply the result of the trait of "being overall very successful" and being an exemplary Legion, which is why I compared them more to the Sons of Horus (Crusade era) or the Black Legion (post-Heresy) as the armies that were the highest achievers and set the example for and are looked up to by a lot of their peers. (Even if that happens begrudgingly.)

[reckoning]

There shouldnt be a list. Big E never intended his sons to war amongst themselves. They have rivalries sure, but anyone with siblings knows this is always true.

Maybe he did intend for the war. Who to say that after the primarch disappearance caused by the chaos gods, he increase the flame of rivalry to see who was still loyal, and awaited for rebellion. Sadly, he did not see horus turning.

And risk his grand vision for humanity?

[Ishagu]

Imperial Fists - Sons of Horus

 

 

Horus said so

[Kol Saresk]

They only attacked with 50,000

They only attacked the 200,000 at Calth with 50,000. The rest of the Legion was spread out attacking dozens of planets simultaneously.

[Yogi]

Imperial Fists - Sons of Horus

 

 

Horus said so

 

Cool. Source? Context?

[Marshal Rohr]

Horus Rising, Horus' own mouth to Dorn.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, to be fair, Horus said the Luna Wolves were the best in attack and the Fists were the best at defense and in that respect, they were perfect polar opposites. The one thing that will always get everyone hung up when deciding Legion pairs is "personal preference".

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

don't forget that a Lost Legion may be a foil to one of the other Legions

[AlphariusOmegon108]

That and they're a small Legion iirc.

 

No mate, they had around a 100.000 troops, so they where one of the big legion!

[Augustus]

There shouldnt be a list. Big E never intended his sons to war amongst themselves. They have rivalries sure, but anyone with siblings knows this is always true.

Maybe he did intend for the war. Who to say that after the primarch disappearance caused by the chaos gods, he increase the flame of rivalry to see who was still loyal, and awaited for rebellion. Sadly, he did not see horus turning.

And risk his grand vision for humanity?

Tinfoil hat theory:

The Emperor wanted an excuse to purge the Legions after the crusade. Civil war was preferred as it gives a perfect reason why they should be disbanded. Similar to the Thunder Warriors. Magnus ruined it.

[Aegnor]

Not sure how the poor Iron Hands are the counter to the Emperor's Children as they are (unfairly) shown as been absolutely trounced by them at every single turn in the fluff that has been provided to date.

 

That said, the whole each Legion having a paired Legion that counters it makes little sense to me.

[Legatus]

 

That said, the whole each Legion having a paired Legion that counters it makes little sense to me.

 

That is because they don't. Just like how the Emperor did not make each Primarch with one specific purpose, modeled them after one of the star signs, or gave them one individual trait of himself. And not every one of the Legions is modeled after a specific example from a historical culture. But it is fun to "discover" apparent patterns or links and make up lists of them.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, that's what I was saying.

[reckoning]

There shouldnt be a list. Big E never intended his sons to war amongst themselves. They have rivalries sure, but anyone with siblings knows this is always true.

Maybe he did intend for the war. Who to say that after the primarch disappearance caused by the chaos gods, he increase the flame of rivalry to see who was still loyal, and awaited for rebellion. Sadly, he did not see horus turning.

And risk his grand vision for humanity?

Tinfoil hat theory:

The Emperor wanted an excuse to purge the Legions after the crusade. Civil war was preferred as it gives a perfect reason why they should be disbanded. Similar to the Thunder Warriors. Magnus ruined it.

Again, thats an incredibly big risk to take. Especially against such powerful warriors.

Big E - "Hey guys, yall have really done a super job creating this empire for me, Im going to destroy you now. But Im going to use your bros to do it."

Primarchs - "Um, lets just all join forces and destroy dad."

Big E -

Conclusion: Big E's vision is destroyed.

Or this conspiracy theory plays out and the legions are destroyed. They arent going to go quietly and more than likely Big E's vision is still destroyed. Especially if some of the legions turn to chaos anyway.

Im by no means the pinnacle of humanity, but its not a risk Id take. YMMV

[Marshal Rohr]

Each Legion does indeed have an 'opposite'. Just because it's more subtle than 'good/bad' doesn't mean it isn't present.

 

Sometimes the Primarch pick their opposites, like Dorn and Perturabo. Sometimes it's the Legionaries, like the Word Bearers setting themselves as rivals to the Ultramarines. Other times it's outlook on the universe, like the Death Guard and Salamanders. Other times it's the means by which an end is achieved, like Night Lords and Raven Guard. If you want proof that their is a conscious effort to make this part of the universe look no further than the primary source material in the FW books. It is quick to point this out. AL/DA, RG/NL, DG/SL

[reckoning]

Im not saying there arent opposites. Again, sibling rivalries and all that. Im saying a full blown "this legion specifically counters this legion" list only serves fanboy interests and that the Big E never intended his legions to fight one another. 

[Legatus]

Another reason why DA/WB fits, besides the visual aesthetics and the similar (generic) combat style: The Word Bearers try to spread information, while the Dark Angels' main agenda is one to prevent the spread of certain information.

[Kol Saresk]

Not entirely true. Both seek to spread misinformation. The Word Bearers try to spread their narrow view while the Dark Angels seek to censor the flow of information. Funnily enough, this makes a threeway round robin with the Alpha Legion who do both. Which again for the most part says "Pairing is personal preference."

[Legatus]

 

The Word Bearers try to spread information, while the Dark Angels' main agenda is one to prevent the spread of certain information.

 

 

Not entirely true. Both seek to spread misinformation. The Word Bearers try to spread their narrow view while the Dark Angels seek to censor the flow of information.

 

Isn't that what I said?

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. The Word Bearers do not spread "information", or "facts provided or learned about something or someone." They spread personal bias. The Dark Angels believe in "censorship" or "the practice of officially examining books, movies, etc., and suppressing unacceptable parts." And that suppression happens by either hiding their involvement in certain events, hiding their true motivations or even lying about it how and why they were involved. For example, the Amalgam Schism in the Crimson Slaughter supplement. Due to the Dark Angels' "testimony", the situation is recorded by the Imperials as being the fault of the "upstart Crimson Sabres", and not the Dark Angels for 1.)operating outside their jurisdiction and 2.)starting the firefight which resulted in the deaths of Loyalists. Spreading misinformation, or "false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive", is different from spreading information or stopping its flow altogether.

 

EDIT: Although perhaps I am simply being too technical.

[Kais Klip]

I'm backing up Kol on this one, the DA approach to misinformation is why they got along so well with AL. The TS treated the alpha Legion as anathema to everything they believed in, while Guilliman outright hated them with his whole 'information is victory' vibe.