Which legion counters the Alpha Legion?

[Legatus]

The intent of the Dark Angels is not to spread such misinformation, though. They only do it to prevent others from finding out the truth about them. And sometimes that means they have to "explain" things.

 

The Word Bearers' main characteristic is their religious theme, with "chaplain" type Characters being very prominent. They also do not have a distinct way of warfare they are known for. Their main agenda is to "spread the word", i.e. to spread the cult of Chaos.

 

The Dark Angels do not have a religious trait per se, but a very strong monastic visual theme, with monkish robes, incense burners, holy relics and even stronger gothic influences than other Chapters. They, too, have a lot of "chaplain" type characters, though their job is not so much to preach, but to interrogate and punish the fallen. They also are not famous for a distinct way of warfare. And their main agenda, now as a contrast to the Word Bearers, is to prevent the information about their past from getting out. And sometimes that means lying to their allies.

 

In short:

 

The Word Bearers are a religiously motivated force, with a generic way of fighting, and with lots of Chaplains, who spread the Chaos faith.

 

The Dark Angels are a religiously looking force, with a generic way of fighting, and with lots of Chaplains, who interrogate and judge the Fallen, to keep information about their past from spreading.

[depthcharge12]

Yes and no. The Word Bearers do not spread "information", or "facts provided or learned about something or someone." They spread personal bias. The Dark Angels believe in "censorship" or "the practice of officially examining books, movies, etc., and suppressing unacceptable parts." And that suppression happens by either hiding their involvement in certain events, hiding their true motivations or even lying about it how and why they were involved. For example, the Amalgam Schism in the Crimson Slaughter supplement. Due to the Dark Angels' "testimony", the situation is recorded by the Imperials as being the fault of the "upstart Crimson Sabres", and not the Dark Angels for 1.)operating outside their jurisdiction and 2.)starting the firefight which resulted in the deaths of Loyalists. Spreading misinformation, or "false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive", is different from spreading information or stopping its flow altogether.EDIT: Although perhaps I am simply being too technical.

*voice squeaks over intercom*

 

Brother Kol Saresk...please report to your local Chaplain at room 42 for....re-education.

[b1soul]

Just to clarify...this thread isn't about which legion is a hard counter to the Alpha Legion 

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of which legion would be more suited to engaging the Alpha Legion in a conflict. Again, I'm reading the Forge World stuff and the Alpha Legion is described at being pretty much good at everything. They're great at infiltration/shadow warfare but they're also phenomenally intelligent and coordinated when waging open war...

 

I think it's a bit obvious when FW likes a legion. I remember that in their Imperial Armour volumes...some legions are clearly the writers' favourites *cough* Executioners, Minotaurs, Carcharadons *cough*

[depthcharge12]

Just to clarify...this thread isn't about which legion is a hard counter to the Alpha Legion 

 

I'm thinking more along the lines of which legion would be more suited to engaging the Alpha Legion in a conflict. Again, I'm reading the Forge World stuff and the Alpha Legion is described at being pretty much good at everything. They're great at infiltration/shadow warfare but they're also phenomenally intelligent and coordinated when waging open war...

 

I think it's a bit obvious when FW likes a legion. I remember that in their Imperial Armour volumes...some legions are clearly the writers' favourites *cough* Executioners, Minotaurs, Carcharadons *cough*

Yeah they're pretty good at everything.

 

Pretty good at bungling stuff and getting killed too haha

 

 

They are supposed to be a combat multiplier/spec ops/specialist group. There isn't a "hard counter" to this legion as it is with every legion, but there are some better disposed to take them on.

[b1soul]

1. Pretty good at bungling stuff and getting killed too haha

 

 

2. They are supposed to be a combat multiplier/spec ops/specialist group. There isn't a "hard counter" to this legion as it is with every legion, but there are some better disposed to take them on.

 

1. ...and when did this happen? You mean when the Alpha Legion kill each other in Serpent Beneath? I would actually like writers to explore this "flaw" of the Alpha Legion: a pathological obsession with convoluted schemes and subterfuge to that point that it blows up in their face

 

If we ever get a Space Wolves vs. Alpha Legion HH novel, I'll be interested in how the battles between these two fan-favourite legions play out

 

2. Thank you for re-phrasing what I said. Yes, this thread isn't about finding the rock to the Alpha Legion's scissors   

[depthcharge12]

 

1. Pretty good at bungling stuff and getting killed too haha

2. They are supposed to be a combat multiplier/spec ops/specialist group. There isn't a "hard counter" to this legion as it is with every legion, but there are some better disposed to take them on.

 

1. ...and when did this happen? You mean when the Alpha Legion kill each other in Serpent Beneath? I would actually like writers to explore this "flaw" of the Alpha Legion: a pathological obsession with convoluted schemes and subterfuge to that point that it blows up in their face

 

If we ever get a Space Wolves vs. Alpha Legion HH novel, I'll be interested in how the battles between these two fan-favourite legions play out

 

2. Thank you for re-phrasing what I said. Yes, this thread isn't about finding the rock to the Alpha Legion's scissors   

 

#2 I was just reiterating because you had asked earlier to clarify whether this thread was about a hard counter or not, which I don't believe too many people are saying.

 

 

As for #1 they almost lose whatever force they had with Namitijira and both primarchs, but Grammaticus saves their bacon by telling them about the nature of the Black Cube. Also I believe the Serpent Beneath is another case, this is just from what I've heard, I've personally not read it.

 

The heads of the hydra, as we are beginning to see, are starting to attack themselves.

 

As for Space Wolves vs. Alpha Legion.....

 

 

Well I wouldn't want to see the results in the comments section :P but I believe there is a book coming up as I think Bjorn was ripping his way through an AL ship.

[b1soul]

Well I wouldn't want to see the results in the comments section but I believe there is a book coming up as I think Bjorn was ripping his way through an AL ship.

Due to their number of fans, the Space Puppies are untouchable.

I think I've found that answer to what counters the AL.

SW plot armour of course!

[depthcharge12]

 

 

Well I wouldn't want to see the results in the comments section :P but I believe there is a book coming up as I think Bjorn was ripping his way through an AL ship.

 

Due to their number of fans, the Space Puppies are untouchable. 

 

I think I've found that answer to what counters the AL. 

 

SW plot armour of course!

 

You might want to duck b1soul...

 

 

I sense a Space Wolf drive by coming your way :P

[b1soul]

You might want to duck b1soul...

I sense a Space Wolf drive by coming your way

I'm really looking forward to scenes with those anti-Astartes executioner Space Wolves tearing out Alpha Legion throats with their super sharp wolf fangs

Nothing says executioner more than killing other Astartes with nothing but your pointy teeth

[reckoning]

Well I wouldn't want to see the results in the comments section but I believe there is a book coming up as I think Bjorn was ripping his way through an AL ship.

Due to their number of fans, the Space Puppies are untouchable.

I think I've found that answer to what counters the AL.

SW plot armour of course!

This would make for a rather boring story IMO.

Wolves win cause people like them!

[Excessus]

Well I wouldn't want to see the results in the comments section but I believe there is a book coming up as I think Bjorn was ripping his way through an AL ship.

Due to their number of fans, the Space Puppies are untouchable.

I think I've found that answer to what counters the AL.

SW plot armour of course!

Any plot armour would do, not only SW ones...the Alpha Legion doesn't have plot armour...not a single one of them...

[Kol Saresk]

Well I wouldn't want to see the results in the comments section but I believe there is a book coming up as I think Bjorn was ripping his way through an AL ship.

Due to their number of fans, the Space Puppies are untouchable.

I think I've found that answer to what counters the AL.

SW plot armour of course!

Any plot armour would do, not only SW ones...the Alpha Legion doesn't have plot armour...not a single one of them...

Neither do the Night Lords.

[Greyall]

Beyond their current inner strife, the Alpha Legion is also prone to overscheming, just for the brainlulz, needlessly complicating things when simpler solutions would've sufficed. Think, for example, poisoning the water supply of a hive to cause a riot and flood the streets with an angry mob when the leader's fortress was pretty vulnerably, though this is an extreme example.

 

Personally, I'd set the Fists, the Wolves or the Scars on them.

 

Fists: Dutybound and rock-solid. They're predictable, so Alpharius would land a few blows and ambused, but he'd also find them prepared and his scheming unable to dent the psyche of the Legion. Call it a protracted siege.

 

Wolves: Relentless. Alpharius could leave only a Fenrisian Wolf alive and the sumb**ch would still track him through the void. Plus, they're natural hunters. Still, the Space Wolves are the most guillible of the three mentioned, they'd fall for a good few tricks, at least at first.

 

Scars: Dynamic and unpredictable. The Alphas would have to plan for an ever-moving foe whose battlefield behaviour might very well shift mid-fight. Also, the Khan and his sons are a skeptical bunch that'd probably grow more angry than weary at the Alpha's tricks. Still, angry means prone to mistakes...

 

Maybe the Iron Hands can qualify too, although Ferrus is full of hubris (the same one the Alphas have, according to 'Extermination') he'd present a solid enemy based on outnumbering or outgunning an opponent, and so he'd prove a hard nut to crack.

[Wade Garrett]

Night Lords have no plot armor?

 

Hoookay....it isn't as if there's an VIII Dreadnaught who has risen from the dead twice and killed Jaina Zar herself by stepping on her....

 

:p

[b1soul]

Any plot armour would do, not only SW ones...the Alpha Legion doesn't have plot armour...not a single one of them...

 

 

Yeah...a lone Alpha Legionnaire is just enough to plot the demise of a whole loyalist chapter and pull off said plot successfully

[Tenebris]

If we speak of hard counters to the Alpha Legion, we speak of almost every other legion. In blunt, direct and warlike actions the Alpha Legion would struggle. We speak of a legion which plans things, sometimes, more often than not, overplans, which leaves them open to the unpredictability of war. 

 

But which loyalist legion has a chance to really counter the Alpha Legion?

 

Most of you would say Raven Guard, with their affinity for subterfuge, or the Space Wolves with their unpredictable way to wage war and their frenzy... but you would be wrong here.

 

There is only one legion with the capacity to act as a hard counter to the XXth legion, and that is only the First Legion, the Dark Angels. The sons of the Lion are a similarly inscrutable legion to the Alpha Legion. The Dark Angels heraldry is incredibly difficult to decipher, their modus operandi is equally grim, planned in minute detail, with a vocation for subtlety and with myriads of secrets in its fold. 

 

If we compare the two primarch, Alpharius and the Lion we see two INTJ personalities, two cold individuals, very reserved, very ruthless and very cost efficient. Their legions fight their wars in a similar manner and while the Dark Angels use feints, a preference for ranged fire and cold, efficient, almos unemotional, I would saye here professional, approach to war, the same can be said for the Alpha Legion.

 

The only difference is only in their secrets. The Alpha Legion uses secrets to create chaos, secrets that are hidden from the enemy, the Dark Angels on the other side use secrets to prey on the weakness of the enemy, secrets which are extrapolated from their enemies. But both legions trade in secrets. Where the Alpha Legion hides its numbers, the Dark Angels hide their impressive and almost technoarcane arsenal, Where the Alpha Legion hide, the Dark Angels search... 

 

We speak of two legions that are in fact a dark mirror of each other, and of two primarchs who are both the strategists, the thinkers. Both legions value the economy of war, have a dogged sense of honor and prize foreknowledge above all. A match between the first and the last would be a paradox, two entities that would inevitably mutually annihilate each other. Remember in both legions the space marines are not only warriors, but devoted knights in the first and devoted operatives in the last. For both primarchs their sons are mere tools, instruments. All that matters is the plan. And both legions look first and foremost for themselves, and only later consider the actual factions, politics and motivations behind the wars they are asked to fight. 

[depthcharge12]

So it would be the Space Templars vs. the Space Assassins?

 

 

 

Hey Assassins creed guys! I've got a new game idea for you!!!

[Tenebris]

If you consider their set of beliefs we would see them as different, but the major surprise is that the result is the same. Where a Dark Angel is included into an organization made from countless layers, or to be more precise, Orders, the Alpha Legionnaire is also included in a similar system, with Cells instead of Orders. The very purpose of both systems is the same, to ingrain a devotion in an individual, to include the said marine is a multilayered organization which funnels those useful to the legion and loyal only to its ideals to the top, while keeps a check and a doublecheck on any individual warrior. The same system where you have many masters, you rotate constantly formations and you adapt the many vestiges of anonymity and where you are funneled into a zealous belief and loyalty onto to a cause or a single individual, well... this very same system has one purpose and one purpose only. 

 

A thorough control of your life by your primarch. Essentially you become a tool. A tool for your Order and you Cell, a tool for your primarch. Individuality is allowed only in the bare minimum which is necessary. Your role is to fall upon a blade when ordered to, no questions asked, no answers given. 

 

As I have said above, we speak of two primarch who see the larger picture and who wage war like chess, with strategy, psychology and secret moves. To such individuals, both quite poor at social skills, everything and everyone is a tool, hence disposable. Lion has even killed a chaplain who disagreed with him, disagreement is forbidden, to even think by yourself is forbidden, hence the Orders, hence the anonymity, Alpharius simply sent forward warriors, each well knowing that he was a suicide operative, their return was never expected. 

 

To play chess, you need pieces, and both primarchs created their own pieces from their legions. In both legions the mind behind matters more than the muscle in front, and every single thing, from ship to marine was for both the Lion and Alpharius utterly expendable, as long as THEIR goals and THEIR legions exited the engagement with the best outcome possible, and Emperor be damned... it was loyalty to the cause, not loyalty to a leader, from the first day onward. 

[Relict]

So it would be the Space Templars vs. the Space Assassins?

 

 

 

Hey Assassins creed guys! I've got a new game idea for you!!!

 

"Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." - Attributed to Alpharius, Primarch of the Alpha Legion

 

On the other hand, scratch-building a Space Marine hidden blade would be fun...

[b1soul]

If we speak of hard counters to the Alpha Legion, we speak of almost every other legion. In blunt, direct and warlike actions the Alpha Legion would struggle. We speak of a legion which plans things, sometimes, more often than not, overplans, which leaves them open to the unpredictability of war. 

 

Forge World says that they're extremely adept at open, head-to-head warfare when they choose to employ such means 

[Greyall]

Meh, you see "extremely adept" more often on a codex/FW book than you do the letter "s". They're Space Marines, they're extremely adept at killing anything.

 

So long as they can adapt to the new battlefield situation and gain the tactical upper hand, all is fine. But their overscheming does leave them open to an enemy alpha strike.

 

I'm recalling the fight between

Oberyn Martell and Gregor Clegane

of Game of Thrones fame as an example:

 

 

Death by a thousand cuts and unnecessary in-combat talking and torturing end very, very badly...

 

 

There's always a cost associated with the loss of time and opportunity. And rather sharp-teethed it can be.

[Tenebris]

 

If we speak of hard counters to the Alpha Legion, we speak of almost every other legion. In blunt, direct and warlike actions the Alpha Legion would struggle. We speak of a legion which plans things, sometimes, more often than not, overplans, which leaves them open to the unpredictability of war. 

 

Forge World says that they're extremely adept at open, head-to-head warfare when they choose to employ such means 

 

WHEN THEY CHOOSE is the keyword here, so when they have decided that this is the only course of action left to them and they have planned accordingly to. In short if the Alpha Legion opts for a head on attack you can bet your money on them knowing already every weak spot of their enemy, the various countermeasures and so on. 

 

But I think should they be cut in an unpredictable event, for example like the Iron Warriors on Paramar, things get dodgy for the XXth legion. I am not saying that the Alphas are poor direct fighters, on the contrary, they are clever fighters thus more often than not they have the upper hand, and if they don't, they soon engineer it to be so. But what I am saying is that a plan, even a good one, rarely survives the contact with the enemy, and it is in this phase, in this phase alone, that the Alpha Legion is the most vulnerable. 

 

Overall speaking, I think more unpredictable forces like the White Scars and the Space Wolves are the achilles heel of the Alpha Legion. But even they begin to die once the Alpha Legion is back in control. 

 

So does this mean that the Alpha Legion is "too good". Sure the Alpha Legion is at this moment in the HH perhaps the better of all the legions. But I think we will soon see their fortunes reverse and perhaps even an internal civil war to play out. 

[Sevatar]

I hope so. I want the Alpha Legion to actually die to other Astartes, and have tangible evidence of their convoluted schemes failing. So far we haven't had that, as even Paramar was a victory for them.

[Greyall]

I still haven't read the Paramar report in detail, but even though they have an advantage in numbers, forces (Mechanicum) and the element of surprise, the victory sounded pretty dragged, though I don't know what exactly made it so.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Essentially the loyalist Iron Warriors and Mechanicum dug in, and the engagement, though short (5 hours) was extremely brutal, with the Alphas contesting the IW in the latter's sphere of excellence. Eventually the loyalists are worn down due to the Traitors superior numbers, but even then its the traitor Mechanicum's automata and Knights, not the XX itself, that actually broke the IW cordon of fortifications. Although technically a victory, Paramar didn't paint the Alphas in a particularly glorious light.

 

Having now read Extermination, the Alphas are at a major disadvantage in numbers and organisation. Although they may have had 180,000 or so marines, they weren't fielded in those numbers in specific engagements. Hell, only 50,000 AL were at Istvaan V. It's even speculated in Extermination that the individual Legion Cells didn't know about each other, and even Alpharius may have not had the complete picture of his Legion's numbers, disposition and deployments. So the Legion can't really act in a self-supporting manner, each cell fights and dies alone. This creates the possibility that in a direct conflict, the opposing Legion/s could bring a massive superiority of numbers to bear. Any Legion which can seize the initiative and dictate the terms of engagement in such a circumstance, would quite likely crush the division of the XX they were facing.